Poll: Should Writer/Creators feel shame for Sexualization?
- Thread starter grassgremlin
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why not? if an artist makes the decision to aim his game at a specific target audience, then go for it. the reality of things is that the great majority of more serious gamers are male. so if a dev wants to cater to them with fan service, hell yeah, let him make the game he wants. if someone wants to make a game aimed at mixed or female audiences, let them do that. artists should be allowed to create what they want without being shamed into shoehorning an agenda into their work.
*checks privilege*
*checks privilege*
I suppose if anyone does take this as a direct attack, that they can be forgiven in doing so.erttheking said:
A character that has some how managed to touch their imagination, to reach inside their mind and sit there, despite the sexual nature therein is of some worth.
If a person can really enjoy a character enough to wish to defend them, then the creator has done something right, they've made a characters worth talking about, even if they are just a sexual form of the anima/animus, if you like Jungian psyche.
further more,
The unfortunate implication is that lousy shooter mechanics and buggy game play is broken/negligence.
The choice in character design is directly intentional and it's a stylistic/corporate choice and that bring into question the morality of the choice.
The act of placing swinging gonads prominently in place to sell is dubious and should at least be question and should be question along with the necessity of questioning.
I'd argue to the point a character with no personality would and will not be defended because there are so many other targets for lust in life.
And that a fan service manikin will never be a Shakespearean everyman/fool and serve no artistic purpose or really help the audience blow off steam.
Then again you could really use our mordern discomfort of sex to explore it.
A game using over Sexualization in a way to cause discomfort and confuse the audience could be really bloody interesting if done right.
That line about porn being free killed me.grassgremlin said:
It's always been my argument against pandering, then again there is a place to enjoy it in your games themselves.
and really whatever floats you boat as long as you keep it over there, in your room, down the hall and across the block.
that being said i have to ask what i gods name is "male gaze", I've heard the term before but the only time i've heard it is from Diana Davidson.
You, I like your point.The Lunatic said:
If games are art and some games definitely are high art. Then one has to accept the way art works. The way it gives us feelings and makes us think.
That includes things we don't like. Yes you could make a hypersexualized character and..actually make people think about what it means. True in some games it is purely to draw male attention, le sigh! Think nude women mods in skyrim... or that Xblades!
But in some games it does has to make you think "Why does this person wears so little.." and what it means to you.
Maybe this is bovine excrement. But to me there ought to be deeper thinking about things. And sometimes that is worth making something abhorent!
In that "The Evil Within" we see allot of things we don't like. But they do tend to make us think. Or at least feel, or a game like "The Path" which lets be fair has some darker things in it. artsy? a game? At least it makes you think.
And Skyrim, love this game but lets be fair it is a power fantasy. We like it but we ought to understand why we like it. It is a game where you are not ever powerless, unable to stop things from happening. While in some games, like Tombraider, there are scenes where there is stronger powerlessness. And that makes us feel and dislike!
In the end, yeah sometimes I have to Sigh at the portraying of how someone looks. But ya know that tells more about me then about others. In the end my dislike of certain things tells more about me then about the subject at hand.
And this is why I say No, it is good that there are games going that far. Just as there are games that break up our expectations. And games that have actually normal looking characters with actual human problems.
****
I wrote this after sitting with some coffee to think about these matters. A much more fitting post I feel.
On a forum there was a poll followed up by a long string of replies about sexualisation in games. Aka big breasted women wearing little clothes in fighting games. And it did make me think!
What do things mean, if we take games as another form of art. And before you all go like ?look at that high brow chair philosopher?, just stop doing that. If we take games as equal to books, movies, and plays. Then actually is this bad. Should the make of said game feel ashamed?
Now this lead me to think about a few games. Skyrim for instance and its moddibility. Many mods are naked women or mods to remove clothes of women or mods to make the women in the game look hotter. Depending on how you define hot. It is just freaking pixels guys! Of course Skyrim though it has a great story does attracts males quite a bit. Because it is a power fantasy, you are the hero and are going to solve every problem. Oh look at that you can even defeat dragons actually you are THE ONE.
They even expect you to be a nord male at the start, a viking warrior in the shortest of term. How more Arnold Schwarzenegger can you get.
Then there is on the other side of the coin Laura Craft in the new Tomb Raider, there are scenes where she is definitely not in control. And not in a way of ?look the bad guy shows up lets make sure the player knows this guy is bad so lets remove all control from them?. More in a sense of being in very bad situations and yes at times there are the much hated QUICK TIME EVENTS to not get killed.
There this young women is portrayed as having to grow to be strong because the world is dangerous around here. A much more fullfilling hero type. And no she doesn't wears a chainmail bikini and she doesn't either comes with mega memaries. She just is attractive as person because she is a person there. She is written to be an actual person! A person you can care for and hope to get to the end.
Where the hero is skyrim is so empty so ?power fantasy? that you don't care. Actually there are very few characters in Skyrim I care for. Some I like because they are odd but do I care? Nah not really!
And there are also strong female characters out there who yes dress rather skimpy or rather provocative but are strong and use sex as a tool. To make others mostly men do their bidding!
You know I really like books because at least you get a history, a backstory, a why someone acts certain ways. Who is someone, what made them that way... something lacking in the writing of some videogames.
I just watched Interview with a Vampire and I got the book still waiting for me to read it fully. I don't like reading these tiny books, it is one of those ...pocked edition, so it is so small. Font also tends to be smaller and it just reads less nice then a big fat book. A big fat book with nice rounded big letters waiting to be read.
So I don't say that makers of videogames with chainmail bikinis or modmakers with chainmail bikini babes should be ashamed. They use something very basic, very animalistic, our basic animal desire for sex. And if you are a young male that is enough. If you get beyond 30 ? you want a person.
I do definitely hope for more games with very good characters. Ones you really CARE for, don't mind to me how they look there, if you can make me care for the fate for a block of wood. Men you are good!
That includes things we don't like. Yes you could make a hypersexualized character and..actually make people think about what it means. True in some games it is purely to draw male attention, le sigh! Think nude women mods in skyrim... or that Xblades!
But in some games it does has to make you think "Why does this person wears so little.." and what it means to you.
Maybe this is bovine excrement. But to me there ought to be deeper thinking about things. And sometimes that is worth making something abhorent!
In that "The Evil Within" we see allot of things we don't like. But they do tend to make us think. Or at least feel, or a game like "The Path" which lets be fair has some darker things in it. artsy? a game? At least it makes you think.
And Skyrim, love this game but lets be fair it is a power fantasy. We like it but we ought to understand why we like it. It is a game where you are not ever powerless, unable to stop things from happening. While in some games, like Tombraider, there are scenes where there is stronger powerlessness. And that makes us feel and dislike!
In the end, yeah sometimes I have to Sigh at the portraying of how someone looks. But ya know that tells more about me then about others. In the end my dislike of certain things tells more about me then about the subject at hand.
And this is why I say No, it is good that there are games going that far. Just as there are games that break up our expectations. And games that have actually normal looking characters with actual human problems.
****
I wrote this after sitting with some coffee to think about these matters. A much more fitting post I feel.
On a forum there was a poll followed up by a long string of replies about sexualisation in games. Aka big breasted women wearing little clothes in fighting games. And it did make me think!
What do things mean, if we take games as another form of art. And before you all go like ?look at that high brow chair philosopher?, just stop doing that. If we take games as equal to books, movies, and plays. Then actually is this bad. Should the make of said game feel ashamed?
Now this lead me to think about a few games. Skyrim for instance and its moddibility. Many mods are naked women or mods to remove clothes of women or mods to make the women in the game look hotter. Depending on how you define hot. It is just freaking pixels guys! Of course Skyrim though it has a great story does attracts males quite a bit. Because it is a power fantasy, you are the hero and are going to solve every problem. Oh look at that you can even defeat dragons actually you are THE ONE.
They even expect you to be a nord male at the start, a viking warrior in the shortest of term. How more Arnold Schwarzenegger can you get.
Then there is on the other side of the coin Laura Craft in the new Tomb Raider, there are scenes where she is definitely not in control. And not in a way of ?look the bad guy shows up lets make sure the player knows this guy is bad so lets remove all control from them?. More in a sense of being in very bad situations and yes at times there are the much hated QUICK TIME EVENTS to not get killed.
There this young women is portrayed as having to grow to be strong because the world is dangerous around here. A much more fullfilling hero type. And no she doesn't wears a chainmail bikini and she doesn't either comes with mega memaries. She just is attractive as person because she is a person there. She is written to be an actual person! A person you can care for and hope to get to the end.
Where the hero is skyrim is so empty so ?power fantasy? that you don't care. Actually there are very few characters in Skyrim I care for. Some I like because they are odd but do I care? Nah not really!
And there are also strong female characters out there who yes dress rather skimpy or rather provocative but are strong and use sex as a tool. To make others mostly men do their bidding!
You know I really like books because at least you get a history, a backstory, a why someone acts certain ways. Who is someone, what made them that way... something lacking in the writing of some videogames.
I just watched Interview with a Vampire and I got the book still waiting for me to read it fully. I don't like reading these tiny books, it is one of those ...pocked edition, so it is so small. Font also tends to be smaller and it just reads less nice then a big fat book. A big fat book with nice rounded big letters waiting to be read.
So I don't say that makers of videogames with chainmail bikinis or modmakers with chainmail bikini babes should be ashamed. They use something very basic, very animalistic, our basic animal desire for sex. And if you are a young male that is enough. If you get beyond 30 ? you want a person.
I do definitely hope for more games with very good characters. Ones you really CARE for, don't mind to me how they look there, if you can make me care for the fate for a block of wood. Men you are good!
I voted no, because they shouldn't feel ashamed of something that is obviously earning them money. It doesn't hurt anyone if somebody buys a game because of the jiggle physics.
I don't understand where 'Eye candy to appeal to our audience' got translated to 'attack on every woman ever'.
To be honest, I doubt the creators care at all about the whole debate on whether it offends someone or not. They add half naked women, the money rolls in.
If people bought games based on half naked men, you would see more of that.
I say this in about every thread about this but here I go again: If something like this offends you, get over it. There are actual issues in the world that actually matter. Redirect your tender sensibilities into righting them.
I don't understand where 'Eye candy to appeal to our audience' got translated to 'attack on every woman ever'.
To be honest, I doubt the creators care at all about the whole debate on whether it offends someone or not. They add half naked women, the money rolls in.
If people bought games based on half naked men, you would see more of that.
I say this in about every thread about this but here I go again: If something like this offends you, get over it. There are actual issues in the world that actually matter. Redirect your tender sensibilities into righting them.
grassgremlin said:
No one buys a game because of "tits" or "ass"..... no one....
Expect the people who buy eroge games
Should writers/creators feel shame for sexualization? In a nutshell? No.
Should writers/creators feel shame for lazy/sexist sexualization or blatant pandering? Absolutely.
EDIT: For clarity, I should point out that I never said it's bad or that the lazy ones should be forced out. Just, y'know, acknowledge it.
Should writers/creators feel shame for lazy/sexist sexualization or blatant pandering? Absolutely.
EDIT: For clarity, I should point out that I never said it's bad or that the lazy ones should be forced out. Just, y'know, acknowledge it.
If sexualization is part of the character mental state, it should be ok. We meet people everyday who are not ashamed at all for sexualization of themselves. They are who they are.
It's when the mental state and the state that the character is presented don't mix that we can start seeing problems. The creators want us to respect that character, but they presented that character like a blowup doll. That can create a distance right there. It's even worse when that character falls in love with you because you said X and you did Y. I always had trouble with RPGs who did that. It doesn't feel like romance when you clearly picked an option. It feels empty. Anyway, I've digressed.
So yeah, write characters that does proper sexualization first. Then, you can actually sexualize them.
It's when the mental state and the state that the character is presented don't mix that we can start seeing problems. The creators want us to respect that character, but they presented that character like a blowup doll. That can create a distance right there. It's even worse when that character falls in love with you because you said X and you did Y. I always had trouble with RPGs who did that. It doesn't feel like romance when you clearly picked an option. It feels empty. Anyway, I've digressed.
So yeah, write characters that does proper sexualization first. Then, you can actually sexualize them.
And that really is it, if you have a character as least make sure it is a full character with a history, a backstory, a reason to why they are doing things.Random Argument Man said:
And yes that can mean a Fem Fatalle. Hell in the vampire books I like to read sex appeal is used as a way to gain power. That is how it is done well!
Haha no! I believe the foremost that the designers creativity is the upmost important than to be hinder by censorship. I liked to believe that most of the designers out there are creating what they want because they actually enjoyed doing it and are happy with the result (e.g. the woman who designed Bayonetta or the guy who designed the Dragon crown characters).
The last thing I want to see is a designer being unhappy that his/ her creation has been alter so much by the censorship that he or she doesn't recognise her/ her work anymore.
Sure my belief does mean we would get more adult related stuff but hey that what an adult rated sites are for!
The last thing I want to see is a designer being unhappy that his/ her creation has been alter so much by the censorship that he or she doesn't recognise her/ her work anymore.
Sure my belief does mean we would get more adult related stuff but hey that what an adult rated sites are for!
No, no they should not.
You should be able to make or write what you want, full stop, end of story. It needs to be done better, but I don't see why they should feel shame for it. Hell If I made or had a hand in Bayonetta (or a fun character like her) you bet your ass I'd brag about that shit.
You should be able to make or write what you want, full stop, end of story. It needs to be done better, but I don't see why they should feel shame for it. Hell If I made or had a hand in Bayonetta (or a fun character like her) you bet your ass I'd brag about that shit.
I wish I could pick 2 and 4. Though even if 4 were the case people would still find something to complain about.
Because that's how people are. Constant emphasis on the negative. When we buy a car that is missing a door but has an extremely good paint job, which aspect will make or break the purchase? It's the bad things that ruin a game/film/tv series/album (of course) however there comes a point where a few nit-picks can overshadow any merit the piece could have. Personally I find most of the Call of Duty games beyond 4 a glamorisation of warfare. However I wouldn't call them objectively bad games, just not my cup of tea.
If I were to review Call of Duty: Blackened Post-Modern Warfare Special Forces Shootman for the purpose of informing people whether or not to buy it, I'll give a description of the gameplay, the quality of the design, overall play experience and difficulty etc., I won't go into a long anti-war rant (unless it crosses the line into pure bad taste, of course).
Same with Bayonetta. Her design's pretty cool, the game's pretty fun but I get tired of the camp aesthetic and over-eroticised animation. Some people love it. If it's animated well I will commend it. If it serves the game's design aesthetic then as far as I can tell it is a well-made game.
I will not shame men and women for expressing their sexual interests in their designs. If you don't like it, you can tell from the screenshots and promo material that you won't like it. Move along.
Because that's how people are. Constant emphasis on the negative. When we buy a car that is missing a door but has an extremely good paint job, which aspect will make or break the purchase? It's the bad things that ruin a game/film/tv series/album (of course) however there comes a point where a few nit-picks can overshadow any merit the piece could have. Personally I find most of the Call of Duty games beyond 4 a glamorisation of warfare. However I wouldn't call them objectively bad games, just not my cup of tea.
If I were to review Call of Duty: Blackened Post-Modern Warfare Special Forces Shootman for the purpose of informing people whether or not to buy it, I'll give a description of the gameplay, the quality of the design, overall play experience and difficulty etc., I won't go into a long anti-war rant (unless it crosses the line into pure bad taste, of course).
Same with Bayonetta. Her design's pretty cool, the game's pretty fun but I get tired of the camp aesthetic and over-eroticised animation. Some people love it. If it's animated well I will commend it. If it serves the game's design aesthetic then as far as I can tell it is a well-made game.
I will not shame men and women for expressing their sexual interests in their designs. If you don't like it, you can tell from the screenshots and promo material that you won't like it. Move along.
Any artist that creates for a profit is going to run into challenges, changes, critiques, and collaboration, it is the nature of for-profit creation and creating art as part of a team or as an employee of a larger company. I really wish we could dial back on throwing the concept of censorship around anytime someone doesn't treat an artist as some sort of sacrosanct idol that can never be challenged or confronted.Scarim Coral said:
The Dragon's Crown artist is free to draw his characters however he wants, but he is also at the whims of the developers, the other artists, and anyone else on the team who has to work together to create a cohesive whole, and, in the end, the chances of his success or failure as an artist are ultimately in the hands of the consumer. He likely had dozens, if not hundreds of concepts and designs rejected and redesigned before the company finally settled on something they liked, the artist was not censored every time his bosses rejected a design or asked him to make changes to his concepts and characters.
A script writer will often have dozens of rewrites before a script is accepted for a movie, and even then it will often be torn apart or completely changed by the director when it goes to production, and the directors vision is often heavily changed and edited by the producers, whose vision is also edited and changed by what they see as the desires of the consumer.
More on-topic, just like art can vary in its quality, so too does criticism, and just like an artist must learn to accept criticism without turning into a petulent child whining about how nobody should dare challenge their vision and art, so too must a critic learn that not all of their views will be accepted by consumers or artists, and not turn into a whiny elitist that sees their views of media as sacrosanct and morally inviolable.
I'd say "use common sense" but that's way too much for most people to handle. Up to a point, I've got no issue with fanservice. It's entirely possible to just be crass though.
Interestingly, most of the examples of crass that leap to mind are games that were explicitly trying to be crass. Only one I can think of off the top of my head that wasn't explicitly aiming for it is Dragon's Crown.
Should someone feel shame for that? Sure, if they think that A. it was actually crass (it is possible to have very different opinions), and B. they didn't like that. Should anyone who includes sexualization feel shame? Nope.
Interestingly, most of the examples of crass that leap to mind are games that were explicitly trying to be crass. Only one I can think of off the top of my head that wasn't explicitly aiming for it is Dragon's Crown.
Should someone feel shame for that? Sure, if they think that A. it was actually crass (it is possible to have very different opinions), and B. they didn't like that. Should anyone who includes sexualization feel shame? Nope.
When i buy Senran Kagura, for example, i do it for the tits and ass and i'm not ashamed of it. That it's not about porn or flapping material, i just enjoy looking at them and enjoy fanservice and that's why devs made it, simple as that. When i buy Tomb Raider i do it for the action and nothing more because devs intended that way.
So do developers should be ashamed? No. Should consumers? No. Should people that dislike that sort of stuff and shame people that do, feel ashamed? Absolutely Yes.
So do developers should be ashamed? No. Should consumers? No. Should people that dislike that sort of stuff and shame people that do, feel ashamed? Absolutely Yes.
