Poll: Skyrim; Empire or. Rebels?

[Outcast107]

Ulfric Stormcloak can talk all he wants about "freedom", but what he and the Stormcloaks are really after is ethnically cleansing Skyrim for the Nords. And Ulfric disguises his aspirations for power (as king of the Nords) behind rhetoric about freedom. The Empire, for all of its faults, its tolerant of all races. The Empire's faults really revolve around greed more than anything else.

and the Empire following the elves and letting normal citizens being carry off in the dark to be torture and killed by Dominion. The Empire is SO much better then Stormcloaks. Let see...

-Giving up Hammerfell to the Dominion.
-Disbanding the blades and letting them get hunted down by Dominion.
-Closing the mages guide cause the elves wanted it so.

So just being a good pet for the elves to use. Saying how they are going to rule over humans like they did before and show them who the best. Also where did Ulfric say he was going to kick all non-nords out? I NEVER heard him say that while doing his mission. I was a Argonian and he accepted me as a friend and even said in his speech it was my help that won the war.

So, no. He not going to kick all non-nords out of skyrim. Hell if he wanted to do that why not start with his own city and kick out all the Refugees? I mean really, if the guy SUCH a asshole and racist pricks. Why does he let them even have a home? Sure they are the slums, but also mind these are Refugees. Where in histroy has any refugee gotten a nice home in a new country?

 

[Outcast107]

I NEVER heard him say that while doing his mission. I was a Argonian and he accepted me as a friend and even said in his speech it was my help that won the war.

Goddamn it, spoi-yeah, maybe it is just because we are Argonians. The Stormcloaks would logically be racist against elves.

Eh sorry. Though don't see much of a spoiler. Should know you're gonna win either way. Plus I think they just don't like outsiders. Due to hitstory and how it seem all outsiders ever done is cause trouble.

 

[Risingblade]

FOR THE EMPIRE! Death to those racist rebels!

 

[trouble_gum]

They single-handedly drove out the Dominion in 5 years, despite the Empire literally giving the land away to the Thalmor. If that isn't "successful" then nothing is.

That the Thalmor were driven out is not what I take issue with. Yes, they successfully drove out what was left of the Aldmer army that originally invaded Hammerfell at outset of the Great War, at a time immediately after the defeat of the wider Aldmeri Dominion invasion. Whatever Aldmeri forces where occupying Southern Hammerfell had already been fought to a standstill and greatly weakened. But; their success in those circumstances does not translate to guaranteed success were the Nords in Skyrim to attempt the same.

The Thalmor wanted the war in the first place, that's true, as it weakened both the Empire and Skyrim. They don't want Ulfric to win however, and this doesn't need to be "inferred from in-game lore", they literally say it themselves. "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.".

They wanted the war to happen, and now they want it to continue. Helping the Stormcloaks to win is of no benefit to them at all.

I was actually more inferring that the Thalmor deliberately allowed Hammerfell's independent resistance to succeed in order to further their goal of dividing the Empire.

I never said they didn't sacrifice any lives, I said they didn't sacrifice lives for Skyrim, or for any of the other Imperial provinces in fact. When the Imperial city was conquered they could have kept fighting, for the good of the Empire as a whole. The people of Hammerfell and Skyrim would have gladly continued fighting for the Empire, but the Empire apparently cares only about Cyrodiil, because they surrendered and even gave away Hammerfell lands to do it. They bought back their lands at the cost of their god and the lands of their provinces. It's clear where their priorities are.

Really this is just about the people of Cyrodiil wanting the people of Skyrim to protect them from the Ald'meri, which brings my to my next point. Why should they?

The problem here is:
a) the Empire did sacrifice lives for Skyrim and the other provinces. Imperial Legions fought the Aldmer invaders in Hammerfell and forced them to a halt. Imperial Legion soldiers "formed the core of the army that...drove [the Aldmer] back across the Alik'r." Essentially, every Imperial Legion soldier, whether they're Imperial-born, Nord, Bosmer, Breton or Redguard who died during the Great War was a life sacrificed for the Empire as a whole. Just because they happened to die in Cyrodiil doesn't invalidate that sacrifice.

b) The Empire did continue fighting after the fall of Imperial City. Titus II decided to abandon the city rather than defend it at all costs. The Empire continues fighting after the sacking of White Gold Tower for another year. The Eighth Legion sacrifices itself to allow the Imperial army to break through Thalmor lines and regroup with forces from Skyrim and Hammerfell - you can choose to interpret this as abandoning Hammerfell for Cyrodiil but the Thalmor forced that choice by focusing their invasion on Cyrodiil; hoping that capturing the Imperial City would give them a "decapitation" of the Empire. Essentially, the Empire sacrifices Cyrodiil and the Imperial capital to save the Empire as a whole. The Thalmor are concentrated there and Imperial forces gain a breathing space to regroup and reverse the situation while the Thalmor are busy victimizing the local populace.

c) It's clearly stated that the Empire tacitly allows Skyrim to continue Talos worship. Is it actually stated anywhere that the Empire is complicit in the Thalmor's questionable activities?

d) It's a very broad strokes point of view to say that the Empire buys back "their lands" at the cost of the provinces. Given the damage already wrought to the Empire as a whole, and that the portion of Hammerfell bartered away is occupied at the time, its not an unreasonable or particularly selfish political decision to take peace at that price, given the pyrrhic nature of the Empire's victory. It's easy to take the Hammerfell Resistances success after the fact and extrapolate from it that a counter-campaign across the wider Empire would've succeeded. Less easy to be a new Emperor of a weakened Empire who's just presided over the fall of his capital and the devastation of at least one province. Clearly the Redguards of Hammerfell were eager to fight on, but there's less clear indication that the Nords were so keen - Skyrim wasn't under direct threat at the time and its only 20 years later that Skyrim begins agitating under the current situation.

If the Imperials consider their lands and their people to be of greater importance than the Empire as a whole then why the hell should its (few remaining) provinces act any differently?

I don't really think that you can infer that the Imperials consider Cyrodiil to be of greater importance than the Empire as a whole, based solely on the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. Arguably, if they had done so, they'd have simply rolled over in the first place, or tried to hold Imperial City at any and all costs, a move that would probably have resulted in the Empire's total defeat.

Why should anyone support the Empire? Because the Thalmor are a worse and greater threat and the Empire represents a unifying force that could stand against it. Better to stand together under the Imperial banner than to be divided up and destroyed individually.

 

[SLy AsymMetrY]

At the beginning of the game, I was pushed towards the Nords' side because of that Imperial hussy wanting to cut my head off. But she got her desserts soon after. But then Ulfric puts me off because he looks a bit shifty. So, unlike in Oblivion, i'm not looking to play the noble hero this time around.

 

[EHKOS]

Well, considering I

Spoiler

killed their emperor

I think I'll go with the rebels. Plus Ulfric is a badass.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

I really, really hope they don't make the empire evil. I'm getting so tired of that. Sometimes rebels aren't freedom-fighters against an oppressive government, sometimes they're just extremists.

So I'll be going with whoever I think is right, of course.

The rebels are a bunch of racist, nationalistic douches (or at least the leader is) whereas the empire is spread too thin, crumbling, and overall an inefficient and archaic system that needs changing.

When you factor in the underdog sympathy bonus, it's quite the dilemma.

 

[Mailman]

Whichever side wants to kick the Aldmeri Dominion until it stops moving.

 

[sunpop]

The Empire for among other reasons so I can have an epic battle with Ulfric matching his shout word for word causing them to meet in the middle and explode tossing people in every direction and destroying the landscape resulting in a DBZ style battle.

Sadly this will never truly happen in an elder scrolls game but a man can dream..

Also because causing a divide in skyrim will only weaken both sides against the high elf who already won against the full might of the empire and only a reunited empire with the power of the dragonborn (maybe the greybeards if they feel like it) could possibly hope to overthrow the elf scum. If the stormcloaks did win the empire would still hate them and fight them at every turn causing more chaos and further weakening the empire which would undoubtedly result in the high elves finishing the empire off.

Yeah I thought this through a bit.

 

[Skillswords]

I prefer Empire because staying with them gives the nords a more secure economy and a strong law system and military stability. all of which are necessary in the world where the metaphoric shit has indeed struck the dragon scale fan.
so, yeah FOR THE EMPIIIIIIIIRRRRREEEEEE

 

[Burntpopcarn]

FOR FREEDOM!!! CRUSH THE FASCISTS!!! DEATH TO THE EMPIRE!!!!!

 

[Saviordd1]

Isn't the fact that they are an empire evil enough?

Tiber Septim (the guy who founded the third empire) just went around conquering every country in Tamriel (the continent the games are set in) with his unstoppable brass golem thing (Numidi... something). Those countries didn't willingly join the empire, and many of them wanted nothing to do with it. How would you feel if some other country decided yours had to obey their laws and pay your taxes to support their country?

who says that all the regions in skyrim, whom youre fighting for independence, wanted to be a part of skyrim? or as a matter of fact, even want to be independent. im not even gonna mention how fucking racist the stormcloaks are....not to mention skyrim WILL fall into poverty, and the quality of life will lower a lot. say what you will about the roman empire, but they pretty much made everyones life under their regime a lot better.

You're right, not all of Skyrim wants to be independent. Approximately half of it supports the Stormcloaks and half supports the Empire. Neither side can coexist peacefully with the other, so it all comes down to what you think is "best".

Also you're right about how the Empire did a lot of good for Skyrim, but the Empire is dead, as far as I'm concerned. The Ald'meri Dominion stormed all the way up to the Imperial City and the Empire realised how screwed they really were, so they sold their very god for survival. The Ald'meri own the Empire now, and the only reason they allowed it to continue existing is because it was more convenient for them this way. If they simply invaded Skyrim every man, woman and child would be united against them, but now that they're working through the Empire they can do whatever the hell they like, even openly torture and kill any who worship Talos.

The Ald'meri wish to enslave or destroy all of the "lesser" races (i.e. anyone who is not an Elf), so I'm fairly certain they're more racist than the Stormcloaks, and they are definitely my enemies. Since the Empire is working for them, they are my enemies too. My character is an Argonian, so I have big issues with many of the Stormcloaks (Ulfric himself doesn't seem so bad, but I have heard worrying rumours...). Nonetheless I'd still rather have them in charge than the Ald'meri or their puppets, and that's what the choice comes down to.

Except that Tullius openly tells you that he doesn't think the peace treaty will hold much longer.

The empire needed time to regroup, the White Gold concordant gave them that. The best chance to defeat the dominion is for everyone to stand together, not get all pissy because sacrifices had to be made in order for continued survival.

And to be fair, yes, the elves got up to the imperial city, then the imperial army quickly re-took the imperial city killing the invading army. So its not like it was a total loss. Yes, the imperials did, altogether, lose the war. But I think round 2 will favor the empire more.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

I just want to know how the Empire is going to come back since they really shot themselves in the foot. Gave up Hammerfell, gave up the blades, gave up mages guide. So really...I hardly see the Empire coming back since they already gave up so much for this treaty. If they got own badly the first time when they had all this help, how in the HELL are they going to win since they gave up all their strong points?

Makes no sense to me.

 

[Saviordd1]

snip

I just want to know how the Empire is going to come back since they really shot themselves in the foot. Gave up Hammerfell, gave up the blades, gave up mages guide. So really...I hardly see the Empire coming back since they already gave up so much for this treaty. If they got own badly the first time when they had all this help, how in the HELL are they going to win since they gave up all their strong points?

Makes no sense to me.

Well for one Hammerfell did drive out the dominion eventually.

For two they didn't "Give up" the Blades, the blades were driven into extinction by thalmor agents, with a lack of Blades mede simply replaced them with the peniculus oculous. And the mages guild died from internet struggles before the dominion really ever game to be.

Seriously, do you pay any attention to the story?

Also, they can come back if they stop being stubborn and ask black marsh as well as hammerfell for help. Plus Elswyer doesn't really want to be part of the dominion ANYWAY.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

I just want to know how the Empire is going to come back since they really shot themselves in the foot. Gave up Hammerfell, gave up the blades, gave up mages guide. So really...I hardly see the Empire coming back since they already gave up so much for this treaty. If they got own badly the first time when they had all this help, how in the HELL are they going to win since they gave up all their strong points?

Makes no sense to me.

Well for one Hammerfell did drive out the dominion eventually.

For two they didn't "Give up" the Blades, the blades were driven into extinction by thalmor agents, with a lack of Blades mede simply replaced them with the peniculus oculous. And the mages guild died from internet struggles before the dominion really ever game to be.

Seriously, do you pay any attention to the story?

Also, they can come back if they stop being stubborn and ask black marsh as well as hammerfell for help. Plus Elswyer doesn't really want to be part of the dominion ANYWAY.

Actually they did Give them up. They disbanded the blades due to the treaty. Which then they let them get hunted down. Did YOU pay attention to the story?

 

[Saviordd1]

snip

I just want to know how the Empire is going to come back since they really shot themselves in the foot. Gave up Hammerfell, gave up the blades, gave up mages guide. So really...I hardly see the Empire coming back since they already gave up so much for this treaty. If they got own badly the first time when they had all this help, how in the HELL are they going to win since they gave up all their strong points?

Makes no sense to me.

Well for one Hammerfell did drive out the dominion eventually.

For two they didn't "Give up" the Blades, the blades were driven into extinction by thalmor agents, with a lack of Blades mede simply replaced them with the peniculus oculous. And the mages guild died from internet struggles before the dominion really ever game to be.

Seriously, do you pay any attention to the story?

Also, they can come back if they stop being stubborn and ask black marsh as well as hammerfell for help. Plus Elswyer doesn't really want to be part of the dominion ANYWAY.

Actually they did Give them up. They disbanded the blades due to the treaty. Which then they let them get hunted down. Did YOU pay attention to the story?

Yeah and? They gave them up, then they kicked out the dominion, do you really think the redguards would let the adlmeri win in another war? Especially considering how much they hate them now?

The blades we're dead, period, the notes you find on thalmor agents make it clear that the elves pretty much wiped all the blades out, "disbanding" them was just a formality. Like a burial, their already dead, your just tying things up. But the empire never actively hunts the blades, the thalmor do, they also hunt down certain dragonborn.

And to top it all off, the adlmeri didn't win because of overwhelming numbers or anything, they just got the drop on the empire. But in the end one of their two main armies was utterly demolished in the battle of the red ring. Leaving the thalmor and the empire more or less on equal ground. Plus like i said if black marsh were to get themselves involved on the empires side it would pretty much be a curbstomp battle. And if the cats could stop their minor hero worship they to would help the empire.

 

[Zeckt]

I have nothing against the Empire, I give them props for trying. But they need to get the hell off of my lawn!!

 

[danirax]

the one that believes less in Talos....