Poll: Skyrim: Empire or Stormcloaks?

[Spaceman Spiff]

A few people in this thread have mentioned that speech. But I have to say, the speech you hear when you first walk into Castle Dour isn't much better.

General Tullius clearly doesn't give a shit about Nord traditions or customs. And when he tells Legate Rikke to write a message to Whiterun, he tells her to "embellish if you have to", -- ie: tell little white lies and make the situation sound worse than it actually is.

So? Tullius is in Skyrim to stop Ulfric's tantrum so the Empire can focus on the big picture. He's not there to mingle with the Jarls, he has have a job to do. Plus he has Rikke, a Nord, to advise him. Tullius and Rikke are trying to figure out the best way to end the conflict.

Whereas Ulfric and Galmar are...getting each other super jacked to...do something?

 

[Zetatrain]

From the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric:
"Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval
Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran
Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

TL;DR - Ulfric was broken by the Thalmor under interrogation and his interrogator is now the Thalmor advisor to the High King (to Ulfric if the Stormcloaks win). In other words the Stormcloaks are, albeit unknowingly, dancing to the Thalmor's tune so siding with the Empire is the only real choice under those circumstances.

You do realize that that same dossier says if either side wins that it would be harmful for the thalmor right? The Thalmor wants to keep them fighting not for anyone to win

Does the dossier say why having the Stormcloacks win the war would be harmful to the Thalmor? I get that having the Empire and Stormcloaks fight each other to a bloody stalemate would be best outcome, but wouldn't a Skyrim separated from the Empire still benefit the Thalmor?

 

[Someone Depressing]

I actually tried to stay neutral in that game with a little dash of murder and the occasional crime spree, but... I think I ended up siding with the Empire in the end?

I'm still waiting for the ending where you finally get to leave Deathland Sweden Skyrim with my beautiful family and 19 horses and entire crates full of dragon skin, but whatever.

 

[MiskWisk]

Add another loyal Imperial citizen to the census friend.

To explain, at the start I was suspicious of the way the game all but shouted at you to side with the Stormcloaks with the execution scene. So, I decided to wait and fully explore the game. Whenever I was in an Imperial hold, things were pretty okay with the major problems being linked to the Stormcloaks in some way (I'm looking at you Silver-Bloods) and even the one exception (Maven Black-Briar) wasn't enough to really shake that opinion. When I went to Windhelm I just saw hypocrisy. Yes, Ulfric isn't really as racist as "Evict all teh non-Nordz!" but he really couldn't give two shits about non-Nords either unless they are an immediate issue.

However, the point at which I truly decided to throw my lot in with the Empire was the peace summit with the Greybeards. Ulfric disgraced himself there, first by demanding a representative of another nation leave for no real reason other than spite and then promptly demanded concessions that were incredibly unfair and will whine at you like a child if you disagree. The fact that he had the nerve to criticize what was a fair trade and what's more, something that came about because of his own greed, was incredibly irritating.

I can't even feel I made the wrong choice in any case. I prefer the Imperial Jarls to the Stormcloak ones bar none (even the corrupt Maven replacing Laila since Laila really wasn't in control regardless) and the reactions of the NPCs makes me feel better too. If you side with the Stormcloaks, you can find several NPCs across Skyrim complaining how the victors are screwing them over but siding with the Empire gets only a couple in Windhelm and even then the complaints aren't about life being worse, they just aren't happy they lost.

Finally, looking at it on a larger scale, it is better for the Empire to remain whole to combat the Aldmeri Dominion. There are quite a few reasons, some of which have been mentioned already. The Thalmor ultimately want to drag things out as long as possible, a united Empire is better equipped and the Thalmor can more easily pick everyone apart. I would also like to remind the people citing Hammerfell too that Hammerfell is a DESERT. Deserts are not traditionally easy to conquer and generally marked the borders of Empires that did not come from a desert for a reason. Namely the natives could completely screw over invading forces with ease. Skyrim is not a desert, it would not last against an invasion. Enough said.

 

[Zen Bard]

I've done both. But I usually go with the Empire, mostly because Ulfirc Stormcloak is a prick.

And that's the thing. If he had a legitimate reason for cesseding from the Empire, I'd side with him. I'm all about sticking to The Man.

But he's a racist (and I usually play as a Dark Elf) and he murdered his king. All for the vague notion of "givng Skyrim back to the Nords."

 

[Arkliem]

As for the Emperor being as much a puppet as Ulfric, well The Empire is having to react to a hostile force on it's northern border, but Skyrim isn't having to rebel.

The empire didn't have to start a war either. Ulfric kept within the law, and Sybille Stentor will admit to it. But the chance that a secessionist might become high king ended with the empire putting its foot down and declaring war. Instead of having an ally when needed for the counter attack, they now had another enemy(This could've been a brilliant move by the empire. Releasing its provinces from the concordat while keeping them as favorable allies, taking the bite out of the concordat. There's time to reform the empire when the enemy is removed or the concordat is annulled. Instead Hammerfell and half of skyrim now despise the empire). And given the journal of Cicero where you can read of cyrodiil from him before he went mad. Bandits have been attacking and razing cities in Cyrodiil. Cheydinhal was destroyed. Bravil's been taken over by skooma drug lords. As well as implying this sort of thing's been happening all over the province. His journal is 10 years before Skyrim starts.

Cyrodiil itself is falling apart, and yet they are concerning themselves with skyrim's allegiance. And now the emperor is dead on top of that at the behest of an Elder Council member seeking power. They've got all the makings of their own civil war approaching. Civilian populace is terrorized by bandits, the leader is dead, and a man attempting a power grab.

 

[Recusant]

Neither- and I'm a little embarrassed that so few others think so, too. "Racism" is much less of a sticking point when you're talking about different and unrelated species (remember that even the Redguards aren't Nedic); assuming that it carries the same weight it would in our world is punishing people for an opinion. That's a bad thing. I'm also kind of baffled why so many of you seem to think that the Summerset Isles aren't part of Tamriel, but that's perhaps more understandable.

Empire.

Besides the thing that it's one of the only fantastic worlds where we have the Roman Empire in a fashion, it's because i think with the big picture in mind.

Here's the thing: it's not the Roman empire in a fashion. It's the Roman empire, full stop. Making the Imperials into a race was (so far as lore is concerned, at least) the stupidest decision Bethesda ever made (and considering half of Skyrim and almost the whole of Oblivion, that's saying something). It removed the slightest possibility for any real subtlety or ambiguity. The only thing worse is the Thalmor; they're nothing but Nazis, down to the outfits.

Skyrim had always been a part of the Empire, receiving its benefits, and it happily accepted those benefits until it became inconvenient. It strikes one as hypocritical. Furthermore, such an act of secession weakens the empire.

Sktrim hadn't "always been a part of the empire"; it existed independently (whole and in pieces) for hundreds of years before it- and before its predecessor, too; remember that this is the third Tamrielic empire. The Nords were flat-out slaves under Ayleid rule; they did better under the Remans and Septims, but it's not exactly surprising they want their independence back- and likely not just for themselves; weakening the empire is the whole point. The Cyrodiilic people (you see how stupid it sounds?) really have no reason to claim dominion over these people save that "we have for a very long time" and their own pride; the centralization required to defeat the looming threat of the Altmer is easily enough acquired with a simple "stand with us now and when the war is won, you'll have your independence" (possibly leading into a Tamrielic Vietnam-type scenario later on), but no, they have to be Roman; heaven forbid we actually get an interesting background.

I think we all owe Julian LeFay an apology.

 

[flying_whimsy]

If I had to choose, I would begrudgingly pick the Empire if only for the fact that the stormcloak rebellion was being used by the dominion to weaken the empire.

To be honest, I never bothered with the civil war quests (read up on it, though). I think it was probably the weakest part of the story when it could have been the strongest. There was so much potential for intrigue, battles, and backstabbing. Also, I was playing as the damn dragonborn: I should have been crowned emperor and lead a newly united empire against the dominion.

 

[kenu12345]

>snip<

You do realize that that same dossier says if either side wins that it would be harmful for the thalmor right? The Thalmor wants to keep them fighting not for anyone to win

I'm not saying that the Thalmor want Ulfric to win, I'm saying that by stirring up trouble with the Empire Ulfric's rebellion is a) denying the Empire Nord troops (and traditionally the Empires crack Legions have been it's Nord Legions) and b) that by waging war on the Empire the Stormcloaks are effectively finishing what the Thalmor's Great War started.

No, its to keep the two sides occupied and have their eyes off of them. Thats their whole purpose for instigating the war. In this aspect, the emperor is just as much if not more of an 'asset' to the thalmor as Ulfric. The Thalmor know that if either army wins, they could either A) Form an alliance with Hammerfall or heck even with the Empire to fight a common enemy(Stormcloaks) B) Face the full might of an Empire if their puppet is knocked out of place (Empire) Fact of the matter is either could spell a turn against the Thalmor but the Empire is currently controlled by the Thalmor due to peace Treaties

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. We both agree that the Thalmor are instigating the Rebellion to keep the Empire busy, we both agree that they are doing this to keep the Empire from regaining it's strength (perhaps by reconciling itself with Hammerfall) ... I'm not saying that the Thalmor aren't behind all of this - my original point was that I can't side with the Stormcloaks as they're dancing to a Thalmor tune and being led by a Thalmor sleeper-agent.

As for the Emperor being as much a puppet as Ulfric, well The Empire is having to react to a hostile force on it's northern border, but Skyrim isn't having to rebel.

They don't have to, but they feel they must cause nothing else is being done about it. Under the current ruler and treaty, the empire can get nothing done.

From the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric:
"Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval
Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran
Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

TL;DR - Ulfric was broken by the Thalmor under interrogation and his interrogator is now the Thalmor advisor to the High King (to Ulfric if the Stormcloaks win). In other words the Stormcloaks are, albeit unknowingly, dancing to the Thalmor's tune so siding with the Empire is the only real choice under those circumstances.

You do realize that that same dossier says if either side wins that it would be harmful for the thalmor right? The Thalmor wants to keep them fighting not for anyone to win

Does the dossier say why having the Stormcloacks win the war would be harmful to the Thalmor? I get that having the Empire and Stormcloaks fight each other to a bloody stalemate would be best outcome, but wouldn't a Skyrim separated from the Empire still benefit the Thalmor?

Its mostly cause the war is meant as a distraction. If one side wins, thats one side that will be a formidable opponent. A independent Skyrim allied with other provinces is just as much of a threat as a healing empire

As for the Emperor being as much a puppet as Ulfric, well The Empire is having to react to a hostile force on it's northern border, but Skyrim isn't having to rebel.

The empire didn't have to start a war either. Ulfric kept within the law, and Sybille Stentor will admit to it. But the chance that a secessionist might become high king ended with the empire putting its foot down and declaring war. Instead of having an ally when needed for the counter attack, they now had another enemy(This could've been a brilliant move by the empire. Releasing its provinces from the concordat while keeping them as favorable allies, taking the bite out of the concordat. There's time to reform the empire when the enemy is removed or the concordat is annulled. Instead Hammerfell and half of skyrim now despise the empire). And given the journal of Cicero where you can read of cyrodiil from him before he went mad. Bandits have been attacking and razing cities in Cyrodiil. Cheydinhal was destroyed. Bravil's been taken over by skooma drug lords. As well as implying this sort of thing's been happening all over the province. His journal is 10 years before Skyrim starts.

Cyrodiil itself is falling apart, and yet they are concerning themselves with skyrim's allegiance. And now the emperor is dead on top of that at the behest of an Elder Council member seeking power. They've got all the makings of their own civil war approaching. Civilian populace is terrorized by bandits, the leader is dead, and a man attempting a power grab.

Precisely

 

[Frostbyte666]

Stormcloaks all the way, they are not as racist as people make out, yes there are some racists but it isn't the standard, and before someone tries to point out the segregation of the Dunmer and the Argonions remember who was enslaving whom before red mountain blew and who invaded whom afterwards (or was it before? matters little either way, Dunmer kicked off Morrowind), yeah I can see bad things happening if those 2 races had to be in an enclosed area for a long period of time. There's also the fact you have an Altmer shopkeep (the grocer or the alchemist) in Windhelm who outright states the Dunmer are quick to complain but do nothing to show their worth too busy saying it's not our fight but happy to live off Nord handouts, reminds me too much of those A-Holes who live on benefits and do their best to not get a job.

Trying to get off soapbox...Won't join the empire since they have sold out too many of their own citizens which is too much like handing over Jews to a Nazi concentration camp and lets not forget the Thalmor WANT everyone else dead there can be no co-existence it IS kill or be killed. <Looks at feet...still on soapbox>.

Finally as Dragonborn I'm pretty sure I would be able to forge a new empire, keep Ulfric as Provincial leader of Skyrim, open negotiations with Hammerfel and point out the the true empire died with Martin Septim during the oblivion crises the current empire is more of a game of thrones ensemble rather than an empire forged and maintained by those with dragonsblood/divine right.


TLR - The empire died with Martin Septim so I would join the Stormcloaks and forge a new empire from there.

 

[Imre Csete]

The Empire should crumble, I like to shake up the status quo. Also, hail Sithis!

 

[Catfood220]

I was going to say that I worked for Belethor at the general good store...but he died the first time I turned into a werewolf.

I chose the empire, not because of any deep or meaningful reason or delving deeply into the history of the Empire and the Stormcloaks or anything like that. I...followed the wrong guy during the escape from Helgan, I meant to follow the Stormcloak guy because he wasn't intent on chopping off my head and thought I was until he turned around and said "Sorry about the whole execution thing, you should join the empire."

I know you have the choice to join anyone you like, but I went to check out Solitude. Liked the area and decided to muck in with the empire. That folks is how you make a decision.

They don't seem a bad lot, they don't seem to be too extreme in enforcing the banning of Talos worship. In fact the only people I've met were who were upset the I was a Talos worshipper were a bunch of Thalmor. And I only told them that because I didn't like their attitude and was hoping that that answer would get them to attack me. Skyrim is a better place without those folk.

 

[Hades]

If I had to choose, I would begrudgingly pick the Empire if only for the fact that the stormcloak rebellion was being used by the dominion to weaken the empire.

To be honest, I never bothered with the civil war quests (read up on it, though). I think it was probably the weakest part of the story when it could have been the strongest. There was so much potential for intrigue, battles, and backstabbing. Also, I was playing as the damn dragonborn: I should have been crowned emperor and lead a newly united empire against the dominion.

I hear that last option being suggested a lot but I never quite got it. I'm not the biggest lore nut when it comes to the Elder scrolls but I don't think its ever said that every Dragonborn is related which would be something that would have made the Skyrim Dragon born a Septim capable of being crowned emperor. I also don't recall hearing how the Septims got emperor because of being a Dragonborn. They got to be emperor thanks to a huge gollum and plenty of armies.

 

[Angelous Wang]

If you are Nord Stormcloaks.

If you are anything else Empire.

Stormcloaks are fighting for what was their land before the Empire took it true, but they a super racist and don't want non-Nord's to live their, it's like the native-Americans taking back North America and kicking everyone else out.

On the other hand if you are Nord the Empire is crushing Nord religion to cover their own asses.

 

[vallorn]

Stormcloaks. Now I DO hate their racist attitudes (I pretty much exclusively play Dunmer in Elder Scrolls games). BUT, I read the Nu Mantia Intercepts and the Altmeri Commentary On Talos. Both amazing pieces of deep lore regarding the metaphysical nature of Nirn and it's existence.

For those not in the know, the elves or "Mer" believe they are descendants of the "Aedra" or "Ancestors", their name for the Eight Divines. Men on the other hand are usually referred to as The Sons Of Lorkhan.

I won't go too deeply into the creation of Nirn, but each race of Mer attempted to raise themselves back up to godhood by creating or controlling Towers. giant structures connected to "Stones". There are also some Towers which are not raised by mortal hands like Red Mountain, Adamantine and Snow Throat but the others such as Orihalc, Crystal-Like-Law, Walk Brass and White Gold are mortal made and act as manipulators of Majika, or, due to the Wheel Within A Wheel nature of White Gold, Creatia itself.

Now, these towers also have another, possibly unanticipated effect, they stabilize Nirn's space and time as a bubble within Oblivion and Atherius. It is because of these towers that the world exists at all.

For example, Adamantine's stone is called the Zero Stone or Convention. It is where the remaining god's met after creating Nirn to punish Lorkhan's treachery and in doing so, Akatosh created a point of reference that began linear time in Nirn, Lorkhan's heart landed in the sea and became Red Mountain but this tower's effect gave Nirn it's own, special kind of divinity which let the Divines leave it without it or they becoming unraveled. So, Adamantine stabilizes Time in Nirn, and Red Mountain prevents it from unraveling.

But what does Michael Kirkbride's rambling lore have to do with the Stormcloak, Empire conflict you ask? patience, I'm getting to that.

The Thalmor wish to return to being the gods that they believe they are descended from, but nowadays nobody knows how to raise themselves up through use of the Towers, and in fact, the Thalmor have found another solution.

They wish to unmake Nirn.

Over several games, towers have been falling. Numidium, Walk Brass, was deactivated in Daggerfall, Red Mountain in Morrowind, we saw what happened when the stabilizing effect of White Gold was temporarily deactivated during Oblivion and Snow Throat in Skyrim may have been deactivated depending on what it's Stone was. Crystal Like Law was destroyed by Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis and Orihalc was destroyed when a Redguard sank the island by performing Prankatrosword. The great, walking tree city of the Bosmer has stopped moving after the Thalmor took over their woods which may indicate deactivation as well.

The bars that hold the world together are coming apart, and the Thalmor are getting closer and closer to their goal. They wish to remove Talos, a mortal made god, from the Mythic and thus weaken Nirn further, hence their banning of his worship, they also wish to not only kill humans, but remove the very idea of them from the weave of possibility so that the Sons of Lorkhan cannot act to stabilize the world's divinity with their presence.

Thus, I side with the Stormcloaks. If Talos is removed from the Mythic then all of Nirn is in terrible danger. and may be dissolved back into Atherius.

Nu Mantia Intercepts: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept
Easier info on the towers: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Towers
Altmeri Commentary on Talos: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride
More info on the towers: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers

 

[The Inquisitive Mug]

Gotta go Stormcloaks. Giving your enemy free reign to muck about in your country, detain and torture your citizens, and generally play by their own rules is akin to relinquishing your sovereignty. Skyrim was sold out. Sure, maybe the Empire didn't have a choice. Maybe they were doing so poorly in the war that this was their only out. Maybe the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few, but tell that to the people in shackles being tortured by Thalmor Justiciars. The Empire may not have lost the war, but Skyrim certainly did. Why take the hit for a nation that is either unable or unwilling to protect you?

Denying you aid is one thing; Actively repressing your military efforts against the Thalmor is another. Hammerfell didn't play that shit, and they turned out all right. Ulfric may be racist a douche, but the Aldmeri Dominion has him beaten on those two fronts.

 

[Fijiman]

I have no preference between the two. However, I do know that the Thalmor can go burn in the unending fires of Oblivion. Fuck the Thalmor.

 

[Arkliem]

I hear that last option being suggested a lot but I never quite got it. I'm not the biggest lore nut when it comes to the Elder scrolls but I don't think its ever said that every Dragonborn is related which would be something that would have made the Skyrim Dragon born a Septim capable of being crowned emperor. I also don't recall hearing how the Septims got emperor because of being a Dragonborn. They got to be emperor thanks to a huge gollum and plenty of armies.

Beth is really toying with people in Skyrim. The last man to forge an empire, Talos/Tiber Septim, is a sort of amalgamation of Hjalti Early-Beard, Zurin Arctus, and Wulfharth. Each of them performed actions while pretending to be Talos Stormcrown the general. Hjalti being the prophesized dragonborn leading the charge, Zurin being the imperial loyal to his lord, and Wulfharth being the representation of the early Nordic traditions. All three of them became part of Talos the god. How funny now that we have a Tullius, Stormcloak and a dragonborn between the both of them and enough uncertainty to mimic the beginning of Talos rise to ascension. Talos also started through unifying skyrim.