Poll: So Castle Crashers was awesome -- until it forced me into being a lecherous jerkface

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NuclearKangaroo

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you are overthinking it WAY too much, i could just as easily argue the game reduces men to nothing but violent cavemen who love nothing but smack everything senseless
 

El Luck

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Worgen said:
El Luck said:
well shit whatever you do, don't play Battle Block Theatre, you can push cats in to water. Would hate for you to go on another pointless tirade.
Dude, don't be a prick, how would you feel if after beating the last boss in gears of war you suddenly had a scene with Dom and Marco fucking each other in the butt?

What the fuck is wrong with you people? She encountered a situation that kind of came out of no where and made her uncomfortable and you shitheads are just pilling crap on her? WHY!?

You don't even seem to try and understand what is bugging her about this, you just assume she wants to take away your videogames.
Ok firstly, Yup I was being a prick, of that there ain't any doubt and I do feel like a bit of a douche for doing that. But this is my reaction to yet another thread like this.

Secondly, that scene would be completely out of place and I would find it awesome just because its in a Gears of War game.

Lastly you make the assumption on my part that my problem with this is the whole "evul woman coming to take away the vidja gaimes" thing. Nope. Granted that from my response to the OP, that assumption is fair game.

My problem with this entire thing is based on the OPs overreaction and baseless assumption. The overreaction was to a stupid tropey as fuck scene in an arcade style game which was so tropey and stupid and was just a set up for a bit of dumb pvp action between you and the people your playing with, and the baseless assumption was that the game is telling you that your character is a man, when the game at no point states that your character has a gender, the only thing the playable characters have is a title, and that's it. the only thing that even points to a gender is on the community created wiki.

There, I've explained in detail what I think, and to the OP I apologise for being a dick with my initial response. Hopefully you find a way to get over said problem and continue to enjoy what is one hell of a fun game.
 

Dragon Zero

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To be honest, I'd mostly forgotten about that aspect of the game. As with most games, I play it alone because I'm a very very sad man. I do remember playing online I'd usually become outclassed, so I wouldn't even bother fighting back.

I never really thought about giving my characters traits since other than the character model itself and magic use they are almost indistinguishable. I also do find it rather interesting that most of the playable character models are rather gender neutral-ish so you could argue that they are one sex or another, some better than others. One thing you might also consider is that maybe the princesses themselves are the ones demanding the action, I know its a stretch but that's just the way I see it. Finally a kiss just could be a kiss it doesn't necessarily mean other amorous feelings are involved. Again that could just be me thinking that since I'm rather... well I guess the term could be "sexless" if a bit crass.

In any case I don't really feel the same way however I don't think its my place to tell you or anyone that you're wrong to think and feel the way you do about such matters. I would strongly recommend that you maybe give it another shot as it is a very good game, but again it's all up to you. Also sorry if this post is somewhat low quality, the written word is not my strong suit.
 

Drizzitdude

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Its just another game abotu dudes rescuing a princess. There is no harmful gender-inequality or sexual message here, questioning it like asking why Mario and Link try to rescue their respective princesses and why your forced into their journey. It is meant to be a fun little co-op game to play with your friends, just have fun with it :D
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Drizzitdude said:
Its just another game abotu dudes rescuing a princess. There is no harmful gender-inequality or sexual message here, questioning it like asking why Mario and Link try to rescue their respective princesses and why your forced into their journey. It is meant to be a fun little co-op game to play with your friends, just have fun with it :D
and to think a certain internet person made a video about why mario and link rescuing their princesses was all kinds of wrong, but well i guess thats a story for another day kids! people will complain about me bringing HER again

i do agree with you, people should stop assuming that, just because something offends you, its the most terrible thing ever
 

the December King

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I'm sorry that this bothered you!

For me, there was a similar jolt, at least in principle, in Saint's Row 2. I was having so much fun doing silly things like insurance fraud and rag dolling around the city, racing taxis full of clients to destinations and spraying poop, that when I eventually did come back to the plot as a gang boss murderer, it was a sobering and jarring experience. I had it in my head that I was a goofy weird clown that could wander the city jigging in front of the elderly and jumping from rooftops as I pleased.

Not a deal breaker, mid you, I was just not playing so necessarily cold-blooded up to those moments, you know? Then, bam, I'm murdering personalities in cut scenes in gruesome ways.

My point is that when I have had an image of how my game was going, and the game has changed my narrative or surprised me in such a way that I was left feeling betrayed, I was upset, too.
 

Frankster

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I haven't played the game in question so take my view with a generous helping of salt:

-The concept of having to fight your team mate who you been fighting back to back with for an entire game isn't something new in arcade style beat em ups, I remember most notably this being the case in the first streets of rage, to give an example different to Double Dragon.
In that game the players fought over dissenting opinions on whether to accept Mr Xs offer of joining him, and I don't see the whole "knights fighting over princess" scenario to be that different in that it works in this context and matches the theme, that's what knights at their most extreme stereotypical white knight behavior do: fight over damsels between each other after the obvious enemies have been dealt with.

-Guys dieing and killing each other over the reward of a maiden (whose own desires are completely ignored) is a trope that is in line with the whole knights and chivalry schtick and resonates way beyond it too.
Personally this has always bothered me a bit in media (there's a recent film I saw, the Jason and golden fleece film? well in that one the hero totally forgets about his comrade in arms who fought with him and died in horrible ways to choose to at the end of the film to ONLY resurrect the female character, because that's all that mattered and the other guys could just go rot in hades for all eternity), not least due to implications you're less of a man for not wanting to compete with others over the fairer sex but this is something that's juat part of our culture.

Shame that it all resulted in ruining your enjoyment of a game you were having a good time with, and that's all I think I have to say about the topic.
 

Maximum Bert

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ColaWarVeteran said:
Didn't the original Double Dragon do this first?
Yeah I think so at least it was the first game I remember doing it totally took me and a friend by surpise we were only young so it was just a case of ok awesome now we get to fight each other rather than any analyzing as to why or whether it was appropriate.

I havent played Castle Crashers but I wouldnt be surprised if its inclusion was a nod to double dragon in some way.

I feel no need to defend what is going on or condemn it its just what it is as for being upset because you projected a wrong image onto a character well thats kinda your own fault OP you assumed wrong.

I find it amusing that people are getting upset about things like this now and dont bat an eye at violence anymore (never had a problem with violence in games either really) it used to be what!? you KILL all these people/things? games are destroying everyone now its ok par for the course (except those who still want to use it for scapegoating and those to stupid or lazy to think for themselves)but someone kisses someone! and the sky falls in for some people.

You can get upset about whatever you want OP I suspect most others wont be bothered in the slightest by this. I have been upset about things others dont care about as well like the slight change in move list from SC to SC2 removing my 2 favourite moves in the game (well removing one and changing the other to a less cool version).
 

Agente L

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Games can't always cater to your specific taste (in this case, being a straight women in games you want to play.)

You are also making a huge tempest in a teapot, waaaaay overeading in your analysis. Being a parody of your average "save the princess" game (even more considering the makers of the game), I think it may be a tad too much saying that beating your fellow soldier for the princess being "lecherous man who would beat up his fellow soldiers -- on whom his life depends, by whose side he just fought for dear life".
 

Something Amyss

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Doomsdaylee said:
Exactly. I mean, I actually remember when this forum had intelligent discussions and intelligent people. Not just little kids trolling. -Shakes walking stick-
So you're mad that punk kids are on your cybergrass? XD

Anyway, I just think this sort of thing reflects the community as a whole. And it's kinda troubling there's such a knee-jerk response.

chadachada123 said:
But he's right. The OP was partially upset that her player character (who she made female, no biggie, I've done similar things to faceless characters) suddenly kissed a girl. Who...cares?
Well, he's not right. The problem wasn't with lesbians in games but specifically player choice. She didn't want to have her character kiss a(nother) girl. Not because "lesbians are bad" but because the game decided for her. Now, granted, this is a weird issue to bring up with any straightforward game, but it comes up a lot and people complain. It usually doesn't get this kind of hostile response, either.

So...a lot of people care. People will flip their internet tables if a story doesn't turn out the way they like. Even a linear action story.

It only seems to be a "who cares?" issue here because it's a GIRL bringing up GIRL issues in gaming brought up by a GIRL.

the December King said:
For me, there was a similar jolt, at least in principle, in Saint's Row 2. I was having so much fun doing silly things like insurance fraud and rag dolling around the city, racing taxis full of clients to destinations and spraying poop, that when I eventually did come back to the plot as a gang boss murderer, it was a sobering and jarring experience. I had it in my head that I was a goofy weird clown that could wander the city jigging in front of the elderly and jumping from rooftops as I pleased.
Well, I mean, the Boss is already played up as a cold-hearted murderer by the time you have the freedom to roam around the city. And, I mean, you only have to play about two more missions in to get a good idea of how far the Boss will go. At least with Castle Crashers, there's not much of an established narrative (Save the Princess doesn't require a protagonist who wants to bone the princess). With SR2, there's not only the fact that the last game happened, but also the establishment in the intro scenes. I get why you might be upset, but you created a character despite the narrative.

And while I'm sorry you feel that way, I freaking loved SR2 and especially those darker moments. Far as I'm concerned, it was a "what the hell, player?" narrative.

But, whether I agree with you or not, you are not alone.

And that's kind of my major point in quoting you. The question of "who cares?" This is a game where a lot of people cared. They complained about the story having you as the aggressor, about a story where you do drugs, about a story where the boss always goes to a strip bar for a titty show, about a story where the Boss arguably crosses the moral event horizon (I would argue s/he's already crossed the border before this game, let alone the big spoiler points). People contrasted it to GTA, where they felt you could better determine what kind of guy Niko Bellend or Tommy because they weren't taking on the cops, civilians, whatever. I admittedly never played enough of either VC or IV to know how true this is, but that was the complaint. Mostly, they were pissed off that their character did things they didn't agree with.

And you know, maybe I would have felt the same way if I hadn't already imagined my character as a card-carrying psychopath. The bastard daughter of the Joker and Eric Draven. Diamanda Hagan's long-lost, evil twin. Hitler with juggalo facepaint. But I guess I'll never know. The point isn't so much whether or not I agree, but whether or not people care. And they do. You do, Persephone does, and a lot of other people have.
 

Elijin

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persephone said:
It's not that I object to lesbians in games. If I'd decided I was playing a lesbian or bisexual (which, for the record, I have done before, more than once, in other games), then that particular aspect wouldn't have bothered me. I almost regret bringing that part up, given it was rather secondary to the rest of the post. It wasn't about the lesbianism, anyway, it was about the game giving me a blank character then dictating that character was a lecherous, selfish person (and a man).

I hadn't thought of the scene as satire or parody, but now that enough people have pointed it out, I can sort of see their point. Yes, that attitude was common in medieval times, but ... if you play it completely straight, is it really a parody? Cause I saw no levels of parody or satire there, I just saw it being played straight. If the woman had, say, rolled her eyes before going along with it, or at least been briefly disgusted at the fighting, or there had been some kind of wink or nod in there that indicated some kind of parody, it would've been a lot easier to swallow. But it was simply a straightforward, "here is your woman, she is a mindless prize with boobs, fight over her and whoever wins gets her."

I can also see people's points about the game not being deep, but I wasn't expecting (or even wanting) anything deep, honestly. I was just expecting the game to not trivialize women. That's not about depth or a good plot, that's about basic common sense. That should be a given.

Still, it was a serious gut punch, and in my case at least, it wasn't effective as parody/satire at all. The next time my sister and I play Castle Crashers, I plan to just give up at the end and let her win, because I don't want to fight my teammates in a context like that. Or go smooch a mindless woman-prize.
Its been a while since I played, but doesnt it come up with an over the top arcadey 'FIGHT!' the second you untie her and she shuffles out of harms way? That seems like an indicator that it was parody to me. The way it is so backhandedly thrown at the player in a 'Oh so you beat the boss and rescued the hostage and uh hmm FIGHT TO THE DEATH!' seems like just a set up and delivery for a joke to me.

I mean the combat before that point had been pretty straight forward and also pretty leaning towards letting you mess with your buddies anyway. Sure, you couldnt hurt them, but you could knock them down and mess with them constantly.

And the tone is pretty light too, even in that first level, you start finding things which spell out 'Nothing you're seeing here is serious'

Truth be told, past the first time or two, the joke wears thin. After getting our achievements, my friends and I just let whoever had the most hp (and would therefore take the longest to die) take the victory, because it was just an annoying halt to our gameplay by that stage. Because....unless you're ultra competitive, who cares about the token victory at the end of the co-op stage?

Parting thoughts: Riding poop propelled deer to escape from a giant cat.

EDIT: Afterthought after re-reading the poll title a few times and having it bump me off side;
The princess has the exact same body as the player characters and regular enemies. The only difference is she wears a dress. Where is the sexualisation? Its the exact same character model in a dress, not some curvey temptress with her cleavage out. So on that note, while I can see why you might have gotten put off side by the sudden change in game type, you're blowing smoke up this just to justify your little rant.
 

Something Amyss

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weirdo8977 said:
This isn't an excuse but when Castle Crashers was released feminism in gaming wasn't really a thing and there wasn't that much of a discussion about not trivializing women in the gaming industry.
Yes it was. In 2010, the only real difference is that nobody had threatened to rape Anita Sarkeesian yet and someone could ask for a female protagonists without the entirety of the MRM showing up to yell at them.

Speaking of Anita Sarkeesian:

NuclearKangaroo said:
and to think a certain internet person made a video about why mario and link rescuing their princesses was all kinds of wrong, but well i guess thats a story for another day kids! people will complain about me bringing HER again
If you ever again wonder why I doubt your sincerity, NK, just look back at that post.
 

Something Amyss

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Elijin said:
Its been a while since I played, but doesnt it come up with an over the top arcadey 'FIGHT!' the second you untie her and she shuffles out of harms way? That seems like an indicator that it was parody to me. The way it is so backhandedly thrown at the player in a 'Oh so you beat the boss and rescued the hostage and uh hmm FIGHT TO THE DEATH!' seems like just a set up and delivery for a joke to me.
Parody should be more than simply referencing and doing the exact thing you're parodying.

Yahtzee partially addresses that here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/extra-punctuation/9889-Its-All-In-Good-Humor
 

BarkBarker

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Honestly, you could just presume you play as either a straight male or a lesbian to help ease the pain. I DO think its a poke to double dragon except you do it after nigh every stage, I'm sure you could amusingly approach it by stating that your character has been turned off women by the proposition of murder for a kiss and that the unholy powers of forced narrative is trying to make you seem petty and horny.

....or you could realise its putting you into the role of a selfish bastard and thus you do selfish bastard things like murder for a kiss.
 

the December King

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Well, I mean, the Boss is already played up as a cold-hearted murderer by the time you have the freedom to roam around the city. And, I mean, you only have to play about two more missions in to get a good idea of how far the Boss will go. At least with Castle Crashers, there's not much of an established narrative (Save the Princess doesn't require a protagonist who wants to bone the princess). With SR2, there's not only the fact that the last game happened, but also the establishment in the intro scenes. I get why you might be upset, but you created a character despite the narrative.

And while I'm sorry you feel that way, I freaking loved SR2 and especially those darker moments. Far as I'm concerned, it was a "what the hell, player?" narrative.
Woah now, I logged over 300 hours with my character in SR2- I freaking loved it, too! I was merely pointing out that, while bouncing around the city I could easily forget that I wasn't necessarily a murderous thug, whether I wanted to or not. And there WERE times when the killin' was spot on. S'pecially with some of those cheats like the one with the lethal cars, and the people all constantly fighting...

I was merely saying that I sympathize with Persephone, and can see how someone can easily slip into their own narrative, especially if they ignore, or aren't constantly subjected to, elements that contradict that.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Zachary Amaranth said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
and to think a certain internet person made a video about why mario and link rescuing their princesses was all kinds of wrong, but well i guess thats a story for another day kids! people will complain about me bringing HER again
If you ever again wonder why I doubt your sincerity, NK, just look back at that post.
im not being insincere, i really freakin' hate anita
 

Redflash

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marioandsonic said:
Dragonlayer said:
Personally I think its quite disgusting the way the game depicts male characters as blindly driven by lust for the lost princesses, implying battle hardened knights will butcher their comrades in an instant because of a pretty face.
I'm pretty sure that actually happened quite a lot during the Middle Ages...

And I can't tell if OP is being serious, or is just baiting.
To be fair, although medieval society was obviously an armed one with more violent tendencies than ours, it was actually pretty well organised when it came to dealing with the aforementioned pretty faces. There was a lot of permission-getting involved, and men often had to wait until the prime of their life was behind them until they were considered properly established and ready for marriage - all the hacking and slashing in the world wouldn't help you if the woman's father and your overlord didn't approve.

Granted this was not due to anyone being especially enlightened - pretty faces were handled with care because they were effectively walking and talking land deeds that held the key to their father's inheritance. Now that's real objectification!

Never fear though, there was a lot of comrade-butchering going on over just about every other thing you can imagine.

As far as the OP goes, I couldn't agree more. They're really blurring the lines between sincere yet ridiculous SJW-overreaction and insincere and cynical flame-baiting. Castle Crashers just can't be analysed on that level. The only significance of the end fight against your co-op mates is just that - a fun way to wind down the play-session and maybe see who's got the best skills. There's no deep and hidden sexual objectification behind it.
 

Saulkar

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zerragonoss said:
Worgen said:
El Luck said:
well shit whatever you do, don't play Battle Block Theatre, you can push cats in to water. Would hate for you to go on another pointless tirade.
Dude, don't be a prick, how would you feel if after beating the last boss in gears of war you suddenly had a scene with Dom and Marco fucking each other in the butt?

What the fuck is wrong with you people? She encountered a situation that kind of came out of no where and made her uncomfortable and you shitheads are just pilling crap on her? WHY!?

You don't even seem to try and understand what is bugging her about this, you just assume she wants to take away your videogames.
This. Also I don't think the people in this thread know what over-analyzing means, form the op she did not analyze any thing she was playing the game, than this came and smacked her in the face. Overall think the satire defense that has come up might hold water but I doubt it given the things like shit propelled dear being its general level of humor.
I will have to quote you, because wargen was suspended, in order to say that I also agree. I am often sadly reminded by how passive-aggressively-vitriolic these forums agree when someone does not adhere to the common consensus. I have often heard that it is alright to be offended...


But then people take it a step forward by inflecting indignation into everything they say to address those who were offended. While I do not agree with the OP completely I am saddened by the retorts she is receiving rather than politely asking her to elaborate...

No one in particular: THEN PASSIVE AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK THE PERSON AND THEIR ARGUMENT, while leaving enough breathing room for me to deny it, BWAHAHAHAHA!

NO! Just ask her politely to further elaborate, polite discourse, why is that something I seldom see in these topics? How dare anybody be offended and express it without attacking anyone. How dare they.
 

Atmos Duality

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Maximum Bert said:
I havent played Castle Crashers but I wouldnt be surprised if its inclusion was a nod to double dragon in some way.
It is unquestionably a nod to Double Dragon, though it could also be a nod to Streets of Rage, River City Ransom, Super Mario Bros and all those other arcade/NES era games that featured damsels. For context, Castle Crashers is STUFFED with in-jokes and references to other games; with a healthy emphasis on side-scroller beat-em-ups.

For whatever context is worth these days anyway.