Poll: So I'm still not convinced that Brave New World is a dystopia...

[Sunrider]

Brave New World sucks hard.

....Oh, you meant the book? I meant the Iron Maiden CD. No comment on the book, I haven't read it.

 

[ElPatron]

If I were an artist or scientist, I would certainly rather be there than to be in our present day society, being held back by small minds with nothing better to do than criticize artists and storytellers for not thinking of the children, or protest proven facts.

Bioshock anyone?



Either way, a place that does not grant you the same level of freedom as I am used to is a dystopia for me.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

If I were an Alpha or Beta citizen in that society and didn't know the benefits of not being a drugged-up workaholic sexpuppet, I sure as hell wouldn't mind living that life.

Well if you were a gamma, delta or epsilon you probably wouldn't mind either , cause, you know. Hypnopaedia and all that.

Well that's it. If they didn't bust up your brain or ween you off your love of music by hooking up your instruments to an electric current.

I've had a discussion with friends about this whole "everyone belongs to everyone" thing and we all agree that while it sounds like it has definite benefits, there's something undeniably wrong about it that we can't put our fingers on.

 

[hermes]

If I were an Alpha or Beta citizen in that society and didn't know the benefits of not being a drugged-up workaholic sexpuppet, I sure as hell wouldn't mind living that life. Brave New World looks horrifying from the outside looking in, but I bet if you're on the inside looking out, the picture will likely be reversed by about 180 degrees.

Long story short, no, I wouldn't want to live in that society, but if I were born into it and didn't know any different, I guess it'd be fine.

Which seems to be the point of Brave New World.

Spoiler

Even those that lived as "Savages" didn't know any better and both John and Linda ended up pretty messed up when confronted with the other side.

Seen from the outside, we think that both worlds are dystopians in their own ways, but people living there were happy with it.

 

[MetroidNut]

Brave New World portrays a society where freedom is completely dead, the population is kept complacent by drugs, class divisions are absolutely horrendous, romance is nonexistent, and while happiness is in abundance, I would argue that fulfillment is not. No one in that society gets any feeling of accomplishment whatsoever, with the possible exception of the only people actually producing something: pornography directors.

So basically, it's a hollow, empty existence, devoid of purpose, equality, freedom and actual emotion; but everyone's happy. Whether that's a dystopia is subjective, I guess, but I certainly think it is.

 

[Terminal Blue]

So in my English class we recently finished Brave New World, and as I was reading it I couldn't shake this nagging feeling that this place didn't seem all that shitty. I mean, sure people worked all day, then came home, took drugs, saw movies and had sex but... isn't that what most people these days do anyway?

Yes.

Though I think that's part of the point.

Firstly, it's not a dystopia, it's a deconstruction of the idea of Utopia, a society where everyone is happy and content.

Secondly, the book isn't just a "bad future", it's a satire in the very old tradition of using science fiction as satire (which is still alive today).

* Fordism is an exaggerated parody of what we would now term charismatic Christianity or the Pentecostal movement.

* The "feelies" are a parody of Hollywood films. Believe it or not, 1930s Hollywood was often accused of pandering to its audience and of generally being mindless (in many ways it actually probably was more so than today).

* The 'alpha', 'beta', 'gamma' caste system is a rebuke of Eugenics, particularly its application to the British class system. Eugenics was still a very popular idea in the 1930s.

* The use of the zipper and "everyone belongs to everyone" is a parody of the idea of "casual" consensual sex, which first appeared in the 1920s and was a massive moral panic at the time Huxley was writing.

The basic criticism is that all "meaning" in the society has been replaced by sensation. People worship, but they're not worshipping anything, they're worshipping for the sense of religious ecstacy. People go to feelies, but they're not watching complex drama or Shakespeare, they're going for the sex scenes. People have sex not because they choose or because they feel for each other, but because their society renders them incapable of denying consent. Ultimately, people feel pleasure all the time so it has no meaning, there is nothing special about it, they have no suffering or pain to contrast it against.

People are so desensitised from meaning that when the savage descends into madness at the end and attacks Lenina (who for the first time in her life is crying real tears) with a whip, people cheer him on because they're no longer capable of understanding suffering as anything other than a voyeuristic spectacle.

I think that's pretty dystopian, it's effectively a world in which you kill time until you die, and the greatest joy in life is being as numb from it as possible.

You don't have to agree with everything, it's a mercilessly puritan book by today's standards, but I think if you'd honestly like to live in that society (or aren't a little disgusted that in some ways you already do) I would start to worry a little.

 

[LorienvArden]

Yes, BNW is classic dystopian fiction and the system wouldn't be pleasent to live in. However, We are on our best way getting there, doing everything we can to speed up the destruction of our planet and our values.
Corporate control over your life ? Count the number of "club- cards", discount cards etc. you have in your home from retailers, ask yourself what you tell others via facebook or other social media sites and how often you order things via amazon.
In a few years you won't need to go to a therapist - the net will allready know you better then you yourself.
"Work, consume,drug yourself, repeat" - try living close to minimum wage for some years and you'll see that part is allready reality. You just got a choice in the drug you use (Alcohol,internet,tv...)
Genetic engineering of classes - Given the hysteria around genetic engineering it's fairly unlikely to be put into effect soon, but classes aren't terribly flexible right now either. If you raise your kid in a working family on one salary, good luck on supporting your child to get into higher education. In the worst cases, social stigmata will drag people down until they convince themselfs they could never succeed.
The distribution of wealth in the year 2010 was roughly the same as before the great depression in the US.

We are going to hell at this rate... not a metaphysical realm of fire and brimstone, mind you, but a system in which some rich people control the vast majority of us, tell us what we can and cannot think and exploit us as their property down to the marrow.

I'm just glad I won't live long enough to see it happen

 

[Substitute Troll]

isn't that what most people these days do anyway?

I guess you uncovered truth : we too live in Dystopian reality.

Hide, quickly, before the Templars find out!

 

[LiquidGrape]

I always thought this was a particularly salient deconstruction of Huxley's vision.

Spoiler: It juxtaposes Brave New World with Orwell's 1984.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Remember that anone who does not naturally fit in with this society is forcibly ostracised and shunned.

Or just done away with..

That little boy at the beginning who doesn't like the girls touching his dick. Too bad, society doesn't need neurotics.

 

[Spinhorse]

If you can let go of that which makes you human (free will or the illusion thereof) to achieve a pleasant yet lethargic state of mind (happiness?) then Brave New World is for you.

 

[maninahat]

Reading this comment section reminds me why I prefer it to 1984. Not because 1984 is bad, but because it gets talked about so much, there is nothing else to say about it. I cringe every time I see a newspaper use the term "Orwellian" (often to describe something totally unlike a police state).

Brave New World is far more ambiguous, it is far less absolute on the scale of good and evil. It has much more to say. In 1984, the society is obviously evil and obviously wrong, and the entire experience is about how individuals deal with that society. Brave New world goes a step further, portraying a more philosophically ambitious world, as well as the bit about how individuals deal with that society.

 

[zenoaugustus]

So in my English class we recently finished Brave New World, and as I was reading it I couldn't shake this nagging feeling that this place didn't seem all that shitty. I mean, sure people worked all day, then came home, took drugs, saw movies and had sex but... isn't that what most people these days do anyway? The only thing that kept me disliking the place throughout was the whole bit about science being held back, but then when they got to the part about shipping deviants off to islands to form small communities, I was sold on this world. I looked up why this was supposed to be a dystopia, but all I could find was some vague things about "people not having dignity anymore", and "art and science being held back". In regards to the first one, that's EXTREMELY subjective, depending on your culture and time period. Just look at the problems that the middle east has with our culture, or the hippies advocating a return to nature. Secondly, as far as the whole science and art thing goes, it seems like this island system works pretty well. If I were an artist or scientist, I would certainly rather be there than to be in our present day society, being held back by small minds with nothing better to do than criticize artists and storytellers for not thinking of the children, or protest proven facts. So what do you guys think? Is Brave New World a dystopia? Would you want to live there?

The reason why it is bad is, to me, is because everyone loses meaning. The drugs and the sex are just their to maintain status quo of a fulfilled life. And you could argue that is what we do now, but I personally would like to think there is more to sex than just meaningless pleasure, or there should be.

Same goes for drugs. Their are drugs for healing, drugs for fun, and drugs for worse. In BNW they don't need healing drugs, but they have their "fun" drug. I'd argue that soma is just an anti-depressant and that our society's "safe" recreational drugs (I'm more or less referring to weed) are for more than just removing depression. Folks smoke to bond with others, to enter a different mind state, and for numerous other reasons.

Plus the caste system is pretty fucked, as is the fact that people are just genetically made and predetermined to what caste they'll be in. Fuck that.

That's why it is a scary dystopia, to me at least.

 

[cdstephens]

Because existence in that world is empty and devoid of meaning.

 

[Batou667]

So what do you guys think? Is Brave New World a dystopia? Would you want to live there?

From what I remember of Brave New World, I got the impression that Huxley's future world was built on naive principles. The social class system is based on hard work balanced by regulated hedonism, but he doesn't realise that once you make luxury a standard, people will stop considering it a luxury and take it for granted. You might argue that being in daily contact with the lower classes would be an apt reminder of privelege, but since there's no mobility between the social strata it's an empty threat. Besides, surely people who take drugs on a daiy basis would need ever-increasing doses to maintain the effect, until it reached a fatal dose?

That, and the science is a bit dubious these days. The description of cloning is a fascinating and ingenius workaround considering DNA wasn't discovered at the time of writing, but a lot of the rest seems simplistic. In particular, "LOL HELICOPTERS" every other page.

A lot of Huxley's imagined society seems to exist simply for the purpose of turning the social norms of the day on their head. Read today, a lot of the decribed hedonism seems positively tame, and loses much of the original impact.

 

[Sporky111]

Regretfully, I still haven't read Brave New World. But the reason it's a dystopia is because people are declined their ability to choose. The top echelon has absolute power, and all the citizens are not only unable to defend themselves, but are rendered unwilling to do so through mandatory drug use and casual sex.

It's a dystopia because it's a prison that people don't even know they're in, because they're too happy to think about it. It might sound good on a superficial level (which is really the only level that would need to be appealed to for something to be passed into law in many of today's societies) but in reality it's the end of liberty and free will, the end of creativity, the end of individuality or any kind of deviance from the norm, etc.

 

[mental_looney]

The idea of being happy all the time is fine but the people aren't really happy though, they have no choice in anything they do and as said before they are just killing time until they die, sure everyone tells you that you are the best and should be happy and gives you drugs to control you but without choice where is the meaning or anything at al.

Oh and we'd all likely be Gammas, Deltas and Epsilons.

 

[Zen Toombs]

I mean, sure people worked all day, then came home, took drugs, saw movies and had sex but... isn't that what most people these days do anyway?

Yes, most people do those things. However, each of those things were enforced by government mandate, both directly and indirectly. You couldn't choose to not take the drugs or not get involved with the "Orgie Porgies". This removes our ability to choose what we want to do with ourselves, and replaces our judgement with the will of the government.

-snip- but then when they got to the part about shipping deviants off to islands to form small communities, I was sold on this world.

I don't mean to invoke quasi-goodwin's law here, but that's what the Soviet Union and all other dystopian REALITIES within our world. This, once again, removes a person's ability to choose what they want to do. In this world, people are no longer allowed to have odd habits that harm noone. People are no longer allowed to do any sort of questioning authority. People are, simply speaking, not free.

I looked up why this was supposed to be a dystopia, but all I could find was some vague things about "people not having dignity anymore", and "art and science being held back". In regards to the first one, that's EXTREMELY subjective, depending on your culture and time period.

Eh, not entirely. Removing a person's freedom of choice removes that person's dignity. Also, torturing that person as a baby and pairing that torture to ANYTHING removes that person's dignity.

Secondly, as far as the whole science and art thing goes, it seems like this island system works pretty well. If I were an artist or scientist, I would certainly rather be there than to be in our present day society, being held back by small minds with nothing better to do than criticize artists and storytellers for not thinking of the children, or protest proven facts.

Well, for one you're forced to go into the island system whether you like it or not. Also, you sound like someone of a [sub]"They scoffed at me, they laughed at me, They Called Me Mad!!"[/sub] type of bent, and that you'd enjoy Rapture of Bioshock fame.

Is Brave New World a dystopia? Would you want to live there?

So to answer your core question; Yes, Brave New World IS a dystopia, and I would not want to live there. However, I would like to point out that the "Noble Savage" lifestyle is not so good of an option either, for all sorts of reasons.

TL;DR Nope.