Poll: ST Federation or 40k Imperium - who would win in a war?

[JamesStone]

On considering the toll in men

Gotta stop ya right there Alt. If there is one thing the Imperium doesn't really give one iota of a crap about, it's the toll on men their conflicts have. They have solar powered laser guns, and yet Manpower is STILL their number one most common resource. As was said in Dawn of War, "When in doubt, throw more men at it."

Sorry Metalix, the Imperium is a regime in decline, always has been. They're going to run out of dudes eventually, they're just huge enough it's going to take a bit.

Not to mention, if the existence of an alternative of a hugely technologically advanced civilization that doesn't run its entire economy based around human rights abuses and will even let defectors still worship the Emperor was enough to get people turning against the Imperium the Tau would currently be the number one superpower in the galaxy. As it stands, the minute any rebelling worlds learn the Federation would be expecting them to play nice with the Xenos out there, the Federation would quickly lose those worlds support.

The Federation has a major advantage the Tau don't have: they aren't filthy xenon scum. Nor do they worship heathen gods, and they're politically dominant over alien races in their Federation.

Hell, given the morale of the Gue'vesa, former imperials who've gone Fed would probably be edging into the fanatical range.

They're fanatic because their hormones are being stimulated by the space maggots that live in the Ethereals' brains (new fluff, bullshit IMO but still exists).


And manpower is an irrelevant statistic in the context of Federation vs Imperium for the Imperium side. They have too many of it for it to matter in any meaningful way. A big Hive World can pump so many people per month that a war against the Federation wouldn't even be a blimp in their radar.


Let's put it this way. The Imperium is fighting a war against 8 enemies (on-off on some cases), are being led by stupid fanatics with almost no technological advancement, fight amongst themselves as often as against their enemies, and most space marine chapters are religious fanatic fuckheads more concerned with their traditions than they are with actually being effective. Hell, their main battle tank is a jury rigged fucking tractor, and the Baneblade, one of the Astra Militarum's pride, is just a medium tank by 30k standards. Yet they hold on against jackasses so advanced their planets fly, necronic night immortal man shaped war machines, giant funguses who kill, main and burn for fun and reproduce by being killed, corrupted versions of the jackasses, hormone-controlled hyper-advanced fuckheads, zerg on steroids and the forces of an entire dimension that's been corrupted by how shit men and eldar are, and still manage to hold on pretty well. One of their most important military worlds is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to the gatewat to what might as well be hell, and it took what, 6 crusades from combined forces of four Chaos Gods to even get a foothold of it.


Point being, the Imperium has a lot of shit to deal with, and has been dealing with that shit for ten thousand years. They got so many men the only way they can have space for them all is by colonizing worlds so bad that a normal person surviving to 5 is an accomplishment. I doubt they'd be even slowed down by a bunch of prissy little shits with only 200 worlds whose ships are so small in comparison they can be shot out of the main weapon of a battlecruiser.

(Disclaimer: I love Star Trek, but 40k is ridiculous by nature. No faction in the Trekverse - if you exclude Q - could even hope to survive a few weeks against any 40k faction).

 

[JamesStone]

My post reminded me, if we were to fuse universes, doesn't that mean we'd also fuse the dimensions and "divinities" they include?


Meaning wouldn't Q and the Chaos Gods meet?


...


I think we're focusing on the wrong thing here

 

[JamesStone]

My mistake, deleted

 

[JamesStone]

Then what, just let one of the most powerful beings in the universe sit with his hands crossed somewhere in the corner? If they do keep him alive, they would still be forced to negotiate with him as the man would have a profound ammount of influence over the galaxy due to his status alone.

Considering the Emperor's ego, the negotiations with him would be tricky to say the least.

Ehh, Starfleet's dealt with their share of unknowable god beings with huge egos, they should be fine. Hell, Q's inherently more powerful than a chaos god, what with not needing sacrifices, being perfectly active on the material plane, and being able to maipulate reality in ways that would make Tzeench nurgle with envy. Only thing holding Q back are the other Q's and him not wanting to lose face.

Contrary to popular Imperial belief, the fleshy bits that can only be described in the loosest sense as "alive" isn't what's talking to the faithful. Or at least, wouldn't be hampered in doing so by not being bolted to his chair at all times. Hell, the old guy might even go New Testament-y if his precious humans can take their place in the galaxy without relying on half understood technologies that were old when he was using them.

The Chaos Gods are literal emotions. The only way to control them is to suppress the emotions they stand for, which might make the other gods powerful (Suppressing lust with piety can power up Khorne if that piety becomes fanatic, or Tzeench if the ambition to spread it is too strong).

The Warp reflects on the emotions of the people living in the 40k universe. The only way to kill a Chaos God would be to kill everyone in the 40k universe. Saying Q is inherently stronger than this is stupid because both Q's and the God's strenghts are by nature unquantifiable

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

...How many skyscraper sized bullets are you going to be able to fit in a ship that's only 3km long in total? Or if we're being generous and using a Battleship instead of a Cruiser, 5km long?

Your numbers are slightly off. From what I remember of the Rogue Trader RPG, light cruisers are 4-5 kilometres, strike cruisers and battlecruisers are in the 5-7km range, and full battleships fall anywhere between five and ten kilometres in length. Some Heresy-era capital ships described as twelve or eighteen kilometres long.

Rogue Trader actually distinguishes between broadside weapon batteries and dorsal weapon batteries, with dorsal batteries being more powerful but fewer in number. I imagine the larger-calibre shells are reserved for dorsal weapons such as the nova cannon, with the broadsides firing relatively small shells in vast numbers.

As to the logistics of it, that really falls into the zone of "no-one cares to keep track." Presumably these ships are hauling around vast cargo bays full of macrocannon shells, which isn't especially realistic, but neither is an 18th-century broadside on an eight-kilometre spaceborn cathedral. I mean, the Enterprise never seems to run out of torpedos, either.

They'd give humanitarian aid where they could, induct worlds that wanted to join, etc. and if they kept pumping energy into warp space, the astronomicon could still be active. Hell, the pseudo-circuitry found in psychic amplification devices the Imperium has would be fascinating to study and improve on. They may be able to take the belief and prayers of the former Imperials and focus that like a lense to do so. Might take them a bit.

I think we both have to admit, that's 100% speculation. Starfleet doesn't recognise the existence of religious superstition or supernatural entities any more than the Tau do. I doubt they could keep "pumping energy" into warp space and somehow replace the Astronomicon.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I think we both have to admit, that's 100% speculation. Starfleet doesn't recognise the existence of religious superstition or supernatural entities any more than the Tau do. I doubt they could keep "pumping energy" into warp space and somehow replace the Astronomicon.

Especially considering what the Astronomicon actually runs on. You can't just "pump energy" into that thing. That's not how it works.

Not to mention what it does to any battery that isn't The Emperor or Magnus The Red. The Imperium's 3rd strongest psyker sat in that thing and it turned him to dust soon afterward. This was a guy who could toss a freaking moon into the warp to establish a secret base, and yet he couldn't handle powering the Astronomicon.

Basically, I don't think the Federation has anything with that kind of constant energy output that could fuel the thing.

Edit: And that's not even getting into the sheer insanity of trying to tap in directly to a realm of thoughts and emotions, let alone a realm like the WARP of all things, to act as said battery. It takes trained minds years of intense surgery and training just to avoid getting posessed by something nasty, and they STILL fall at a bad rate. Entrusting a machine like that is a standing theory as to what created the Men of Iron.

And that's not even getting into the primary reason advancement is so slow in the Imperium's tech. They live in a universe where the wires in a lasgun making a certain shape can end up making a mark of one of the gods, resulting in a possessed lasgun, and insanity in whoever tries to use the thing.

The Federation mucking about with things like that is pretty much guaranteed to result in them practically inviting the forces of Chaos to run amok.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Especially considering what the Astronomicon actually runs on. You can't just "pump energy" into that thing. That's not how it works.

Not to mention what it does to any battery that isn't The Emperor or Magnus The Red. The Imperium's 3rd strongest psyker sat in that thing and it turned him to dust soon afterward. This was a guy who could toss a freaking moon into the warp to establish a secret base, and yet he couldn't handle powering the Astronomicon.

Basically, I don't think the Federation has anything with that kind of constant energy output that could fuel the thing.

It's not even the quantity, it's the thing itself. What is warp energy in 40k? Psychic power? Human consciousness? Souls?

It's not like you can plug the Golden Throne up to a really powerful generator and keep it running. You're dealing with a type of energy that doesn't exist in this universe. How are you gonna generate it? Mass human sacrifice?

...wait, that's exactly what the Imperium is already doing.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

...How many skyscraper sized bullets are you going to be able to fit in a ship that's only 3km long in total? Or if we're being generous and using a Battleship instead of a Cruiser, 5km long?

Your numbers are slightly off. From what I remember of the Rogue Trader RPG, light cruisers are 4-5 kilometres, strike cruisers and battlecruisers are in the 5-7km range, and full battleships fall anywhere between five and ten kilometres in length. Some Heresy-era capital ships described as twelve or eighteen kilometres long.

Not my fault the numbers keep getting bigger for no reason.

Although I think it was the Rouge Trader RPG that had some ship's crew complements take up more physical space than the volume of the ship could hold.

They'd give humanitarian aid where they could, induct worlds that wanted to join, etc. and if they kept pumping energy into warp space, the astronomicon could still be active. Hell, the pseudo-circuitry found in psychic amplification devices the Imperium has would be fascinating to study and improve on. They may be able to take the belief and prayers of the former Imperials and focus that like a lense to do so. Might take them a bit.

I think we both have to admit, that's 100% speculation. Starfleet doesn't recognise the existence of religious superstition or supernatural entities any more than the Tau do. I doubt they could keep "pumping energy" into warp space and somehow replace the Astronomicon.

Doesn't matter if they believe the religion is legit, it produces observable, measurable, and relatively predictable effects.

And in a universe where belief equals power, Starfleet's sheer optimism and rock solid faith in their abilities will make them very powerful indeed.

 

[JamesStone]

...How many skyscraper sized bullets are you going to be able to fit in a ship that's only 3km long in total? Or if we're being generous and using a Battleship instead of a Cruiser, 5km long?

Your numbers are slightly off. From what I remember of the Rogue Trader RPG, light cruisers are 4-5 kilometres, strike cruisers and battlecruisers are in the 5-7km range, and full battleships fall anywhere between five and ten kilometres in length. Some Heresy-era capital ships described as twelve or eighteen kilometres long.

Not my fault the numbers keep getting bigger for no reason.

Although I think it was the Rouge Trader RPG that had some ship's crew complements take up more physical space than the volume of the ship could hold.

They'd give humanitarian aid where they could, induct worlds that wanted to join, etc. and if they kept pumping energy into warp space, the astronomicon could still be active. Hell, the pseudo-circuitry found in psychic amplification devices the Imperium has would be fascinating to study and improve on. They may be able to take the belief and prayers of the former Imperials and focus that like a lense to do so. Might take them a bit.

I think we both have to admit, that's 100% speculation. Starfleet doesn't recognise the existence of religious superstition or supernatural entities any more than the Tau do. I doubt they could keep "pumping energy" into warp space and somehow replace the Astronomicon.

Doesn't matter if they believe the religion is legit, it produces observable, measurable, and relatively predictable effects.

And in a universe where belief equals power, Starfleet's sheer optimism and rock solid faith in their abilities will make them very powerful indeed.[/quote


But no one can power the Astronomicon but a psyker. The strongest psyker in the entire universe is drained so much by the Astronomicon 1000 regular psykers have to have their essence drained and their bodies obliterated to SLOW, not HALT or support, the toll it takes on his body.

Everything else you said was debatable, but this is batshit lunacy. What kind of power could the Federation provide that damned thing to keep it powered?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

But no one can power the Astronomicon but a psyker. The strongest psyker in the entire universe is drained so much by the Astronomicon 1000 regular psykers have to have their essence drained and their bodies obliterated to SLOW, not HALT or support, the toll it takes on his body.

Everything else you said was debatable, but this is batshit lunacy. What kind of power could the Federation provide that damned thing to keep it powered?

Dunno. How much power is each of those psykers putting out when they get expended?

And how much more efficient could the process be made when somebody with a working knowledge of the scientific method and materials science takes a look at it?

Honestly, if anybody has any kind of sources for the 40k stuff that isn't arbitrarily vague or doesn't randomly inflate by an order of magnitude, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Dunno. How much power is each of those psykers putting out when they get expended?

Enough to reduce a thousand people to dust in a matter of days.

There's no real unit of measurement when it comes to warp energies but given that it can reduce a thousand able bodied people to literal dust over the course of a week, it's safe to say that's a pretty signifigant drain, let alone the fact that it's current main battery is a man who could put out the energy needed to move suns on a whim, and he still NEEDS the thousand sacrifices.

And how much more efficient could the process be made when somebody with a working knowledge of the scientific method and materials science takes a look at it?

Considering it was the Emperor himself, who is one of if not THE greatest scientific minds humanity ever produced, who built the thing, I can honestly say not very.

 

[JamesStone]

But no one can power the Astronomicon but a psyker. The strongest psyker in the entire universe is drained so much by the Astronomicon 1000 regular psykers have to have their essence drained and their bodies obliterated to SLOW, not HALT or support, the toll it takes on his body.

Everything else you said was debatable, but this is batshit lunacy. What kind of power could the Federation provide that damned thing to keep it powered?

And how much more efficient could the process be made when somebody with a working knowledge of the scientific method and materials science takes a look at it?

It was made during the Golden Age of Men. It is the epitome of centuries of research and development by what is in universe the most intelligent man alive.

So I'd say that, if you were refering to the Federation's chances of optimizing it, I'd put it somewhere between "jack" and "shit".

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

But no one can power the Astronomicon but a psyker. The strongest psyker in the entire universe is drained so much by the Astronomicon 1000 regular psykers have to have their essence drained and their bodies obliterated to SLOW, not HALT or support, the toll it takes on his body.

Everything else you said was debatable, but this is batshit lunacy. What kind of power could the Federation provide that damned thing to keep it powered?

And how much more efficient could the process be made when somebody with a working knowledge of the scientific method and materials science takes a look at it?

It was made during the Golden Age of Men. It is the epitome of centuries of research and development by what is in universe the most intelligent man alive.

So I'd say that, if you were refering to the Federation's chances of optimizing it, I'd put it somewhere between "jack" and "shit".

And that's BEFORE getting into the Muckery that anything even REMOTLY related to the Warp tends to cause even for peope who actually have a clue as to what they're doing with it. The Federation has NO experience with the Warp or it's effects on pretty much everything. The end result would probably involve accidentally turning The Enterprise into a Daemonic Engine.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

It was made during the Golden Age of Men. It is the epitome of centuries of research and development by what is in universe the most intelligent man alive.

It's a warp portal made by someone who's considered intelligent by people who don't math. It's a glorified ICU that barely functions and which might be actively detrimental to the Emperor as a god-being. It was created long after the golden age of technology, which is the level the Federation is operating on.

And it's fulfilling a function in the Astronomicon that humanity didn't used to have to need. People got around just fine after the warp-storms subsided but before Geller fields were powered by faith in the Emperor. Decent chance that said faith is masking the intended effect of the Geller field. Or in other words, faith in the Geller field is more important for surviving warp travel than having a functioning Geller field.

There's no real unit of measurement when it comes to warp energies but given that it can reduce a thousand able bodied people to literal dust over the course of a week, it's safe to say that's a pretty signifigant drain,

So can a Phaser, what's your point?

let alone the fact that it's current main battery is a man who could put out the energy needed to move suns on a whim, and he still NEEDS the thousand sacrifices.

And last page he could move moons, and before that it was mere starships, etc. Just adding an order of magnitude to your descriptions isn't world building, it's the worst part about Dragonball Z.

And how much more efficient could the process be made when somebody with a working knowledge of the scientific method and materials science takes a look at it?

Considering it was the Emperor himself, who is one of if not THE greatest scientific minds humanity ever produced, who built the thing, I can honestly say not very.

Well, the greatest mind humanity produced following a total galactic collapse and centuries of brutal civil war, reducing the Earth to ruins and radioactive dust, as written by people who consider said person to be a literal god.

Ever think that maybe the Imperial scholars writing the legends of their progenitors might not be the most objective of narrators?

Hell, add some logic to the equation: if a macro weapon battery truly fires skyscraper sized Adamantium slugs at near the speed of light, shooting one at a planet would cause said planet to die. Full stop. Yet this doesn't happen. Hell, a macro cannon barrage in the tabletop games doesn't even break a power armor save.

Could it be that older descriptions of a weapons battery broadside equaling the explosive yield of Hiroshima is accurate? Fits in line with their effects in their progenitor game, doesn't have a power curve that would make Goku blush, and makes a "who would win" argument far more entertaining than "my side, because it's the biggest and the bestest". The Imperium has a lot going for it in a war with the Federation. No need to late coming, power-creep rubbish to the mix, unless you want transwarp, timeships, and all the other post-voyager, post relaunch, EU bullshit Trek has to the mix. And Trek's the only side in this argument with a fluff restriction.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Apologies in advance for hacking up your posts like this. I hate reading it, and I hate doing it, but we're just juggling so many separate points here.

Although I think it was the Rouge Trader RPG that had some ship's crew complements take up more physical space than the volume of the ship could hold.

That's true. I actually think it was the mass measurements that were way off. A five-kilometre ship with the mass given in Rogue Trader would have the structural strength of cardboard.

Doesn't matter if they believe the religion is legit, it produces observable, measurable, and relatively predictable effects.

It doesn't, though. It's the Warp. It's the opposite of predictable.

Psykers spend most of their lives training to use the Warp for controllable effects, and even then they occasionally spawn a black hole in their brains.

And in a universe where belief equals power, Starfleet's sheer optimism and rock solid faith in their abilities will make them very powerful indeed.

Duuuude. That's some Captain Planet rhetoric, right there.

It's a warp portal made by someone who's considered intelligent by people who don't math.

He's as old as human civilization, and he personally designed the Astartes and reverse-engineered the Eldar webway. We can take it for granted that he's pretty smart.

And it's fulfilling a function in the Astronomicon that humanity didn't used to have to need. People got around just fine after the warp-storms subsided but before Geller fields were powered by faith in the Emperor. Decent chance that said faith is masking the intended effect of the Geller field. Or in other words, faith in the Geller field is more important for surviving warp travel than having a functioning Geller field.

That's more speculation, now about how Gellar fields work. And not very sound speculation, either - a Gellar field is a reality bubble that prevents the Warp from affecting whatever is inside of it. It can't be fuelled by belief filtered through the Warp, because it is negating the Warp and enforcing objective, physical law.

Hell, add some logic to the equation: if a macro weapon battery truly fires skyscraper sized Adamantium slugs at near the speed of light, shooting one at a planet would cause said planet to die. Full stop. Yet this doesn't happen.

As I think I said above, the "skyscraper-sized" shells are fired by nova cannons. Nova cannons are the T-Rex of starship weaponry. They can only be mounted on battleships, on a dorsal mount, not on a broadside. And yes; if you shot one at a planet, it would die.

Hell, a macro cannon barrage in the tabletop games doesn't even break a power armor save.

It...really should. What tabletop rules are you referring to?

I mean, a Basilisk artillery cannon can penetrate power armour on the tabletop. I think a starship-mounted macrocannon could.

Could it be that older descriptions of a weapons battery broadside equaling the explosive yield of Hiroshima is accurate? Fits in line with their effects in their progenitor game, doesn't have a power curve that would make Goku blush, and makes a "who would win" argument far more entertaining than "my side, because it's the biggest and the bestest". The Imperium has a lot going for it in a war with the Federation. No need to late coming, power-creep rubbish to the mix, unless you want transwarp, timeships, and all the other post-voyager, post relaunch, EU bullshit Trek has to the mix. And Trek's the only side in this argument with a fluff restriction.

Warhammer deliberately tends towards exaggerated, vague metaphors when describing its technical capabilities because science fiction writers are not scientists, and don't want to risk saying something definitive that later turns out to be wrong. It's the same reason Star Trek measures the yield of its photon torpedos in isotons, instead of a real-world unit of measurement.

I don't know what you mean by Trek being the only one with a fluff restriction. Do you mean how the OP limited it to TNG? If that's it, then you can consider 40k to have the fluff restriction of being set circa 999.M41, which is where the tabletop is ostensibly set. I mean, we're not throwing Primarchs and Abyss-class battleships into the mix, so that's a fluff restriction right there. We're not using Blackstone Fortresses or the Phalanx star fort either.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Hell, add some logic to the equation: if a macro weapon battery truly fires skyscraper sized Adamantium slugs at near the speed of light, shooting one at a planet would cause said planet to die. Full stop. Yet this doesn't happen.

As I think I said above, the "skyscraper-sized" shells are fired by nova cannons. Nova cannons are the T-Rex of starship weaponry. They can only be mounted on battleships, on a dorsal mount, not on a broadside. And yes; if you shot one at a planet, it would die.

Excpet they don't. It's never mentioned that exterminating a planet merely requires that a ship use it's Nova cannon.

Hell, a macro cannon barrage in the tabletop games doesn't even break a power armor save.

It...really should. What tabletop rules are you referring to?

I mean, a Basilisk artillery cannon can penetrate power armour on the tabletop. I think a starship-mounted macrocannon could.

First run of the Inquisitor rules for 40k. It was Strength 6-7, AP 4. Melts Torpedoes we're strength 8, AP 2 melts, and Lances were strength 10, AP 1. Guess which got used most often. Lance strikes are typically what's used these days for Chapter Masters and the like.

Warhammer deliberately tends towards exaggerated, vague metaphors when describing its technical capabilities because science fiction writers are not scientists, and don't want to risk saying something definitive that later turns out to be wrong. It's the same reason Star Trek measures the yield of its photon torpedos in isotons, instead of a real-world unit of measurement.

I don't know what you mean by Trek being the only one with a fluff restriction. Do you mean how the OP limited it to TNG? If that's it, then you can consider 40k to have the fluff restriction of being set circa 999.M41, which is where the tabletop is ostensibly set. I mean, we're not throwing Primarchs and Abyss-class battleships into the mix, so that's a fluff restriction right there. We're not using Blackstone Fortresses or the Phalanx star fort either.

That's only an accurate comparison if Star Trek: TNG was continually rebooted and retconned into being ever more silly over the decades.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Excpet they don't. It's never mentioned that exterminating a planet merely requires that a ship use it's Nova cannon.

The thing creates an explosion tens of thousands of kilometres wide. In space. It's a three-hundred-metre-long nuclear bomb, it's going to mess up whatever it hits.

What's the statement, here? Are you saying that nova cannons shouldn't be able to kill planets? That they should, but they don't? That they do, and it's ridiculous?

First run of the Inquisitor rules for 40k. It was Strength 6-7, AP 4. Melts Torpedoes we're strength 8, AP 2 melts, and Lances were strength 10, AP 1. Guess which got used most often. Lance strikes are typically what's used these days for Chapter Masters and the like.

Are you referring to this? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitor_(game)] Or the old 3rd edition stuff?

That's only an accurate comparison if Star Trek: TNG was continually rebooted and retconned into being ever more silly over the decades.

I think it's unfair to criticise Warhammer for power creep. At least, it's unfair in comparison to Star Trek.

Like...holodecks. How the fuck do holodecks work? What can they do? They may as well be Green Lantern rings. You can't tell me that Jean-Luc Picard grabbing a holographic tommy gun and shooting two Borg dead with it isn't just a little bit silly.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Excpet they don't. It's never mentioned that exterminating a planet merely requires that a ship use it's Nova cannon.

The thing creates an explosion tens of thousands of kilometres wide. In space. It's a three-hundred-metre-long nuclear bomb, it's going to mess up whatever it hits.

What's the statement, here? Are you saying that nova cannons shouldn't be able to kill planets? That they should, but they don't? That they do, and it's ridiculous?

It's an explicit continuity conflict. Like how this weapon that, when described, should be able to crack a planet, yet is perfectly capable of failed to cripple an opposing cruiser with its shields down...

So, do Imperial ships have the ability to tank the sort of damage that can destroy a planet, or are the descriptions of the gun possibly inaccurate?

First run of the Inquisitor rules for 40k. It was Strength 6-7, AP 4. Melts Torpedoes we're strength 8, AP 2 melts, and Lances were strength 10, AP 1. Guess which got used most often. Lance strikes are typically what's used these days for Chapter Masters and the like.

Are you referring to this? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitor_(game)] Or the old 3rd edition stuff?

Couldn't remember if it was third or fourth edition, but yeah. If a full broadside of a ship equals the output of Hiroshima, a fairly low strength blast that doesn't necessarily penetrate fully sealed advanced combat armor makes sense.

That's only an accurate comparison if Star Trek: TNG was continually rebooted and retconned into being ever more silly over the decades.

I think it's unfair to criticise Warhammer for power creep. At least, it's unfair in comparison to Star Trek.

Like...holodecks. How the fuck do holodecks work? What can they do? They may as well be Green Lantern rings. You can't tell me that Jean-Luc Picard grabbing a holographic tommy gun and shooting two Borg dead with it isn't just a little bit silly.

Silly, yeah, but if, in the last 20 years, Star Trek: First Contact had evolved like 40k has, it would now be a holofield projected over a borg cube with hard light starships pouring kinetic cannon fire at the cube from all sides, destroying it utterly.
(EDIT: Incidently, post Voyager, self-sustaining hard-light combat constructs aren't outside the realm of possibility)

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

It's an explicit continuity conflict. Like how this weapon that, when described, should be able to crack a planet, yet is perfectly capable of failed to cripple an opposing cruiser with its shields down...

So, do Imperial ships have the ability to tank the sort of damage that can destroy a planet, or are the descriptions of the gun possibly inaccurate?

Both? I mean, the nova cannon's capabilities are definitely exaggerated, but if you're trying to reverse-engineer its effectiveness from the tabletop, you run into the same problem all other such rules-to-reality reasonings have: competitive balance.

I mean, this is always a thing with science fiction. Look at photon torpedoes. I think earlier in the thread you said they had a minimum yield of ~50 megatons? If that's true, then why isn't there a fifty-megaton explosion every time one hits the Enterprise? Shouldn't a fifty-megaton explosion envelop the Enterprise?

Or the Death Star. Its generator can output enough energy to instantly disintegrate a planet, but when the station itself explodes, all the fighter ships still within its orbit and all the Ewoks on the planet beneath it are mysteriously unscathed.

Sci-fi always has problems with scale. All I can say is that Warhammer usually keeps to a relatively consistent but still metaphorical definition that often has no connection to reality, and that Star Trek does the same thing, but with nonsense technobabble like "isoton" or "reverse tachyon" instead of Warhammer's bombastic prose.

Couldn't remember if it was third or fourth edition, but yeah. If a full broadside of a ship equals the output of Hiroshima, a fairly low strength blast that doesn't necessarily penetrate fully sealed advanced combat armor makes sense.

I remember that a Space Marine chapter master's orbital bombardment was AP 1, but again, competitive balance. (Or the Space Marines just get better cannons.)

If I had to explain the discrepancy...maybe it has to do with the inaccuracy of the blast radius, or the majority of the explosive force being absorbed by the ground. It might just be that macrocannons aren't designed for anti-infantry terrestrial bombardment like a Basilisk or a Vindicator is. Otherwise...competitive balance.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

It's an explicit continuity conflict. Like how this weapon that, when described, should be able to crack a planet, yet is perfectly capable of failed to cripple an opposing cruiser with its shields down...

So, do Imperial ships have the ability to tank the sort of damage that can destroy a planet, or are the descriptions of the gun possibly inaccurate?

Both? I mean, the nova cannon's capabilities are definitely exaggerated, but if you're trying to reverse-engineer its effectiveness from the tabletop, you run into the same problem all other such rules-to-reality reasonings have: competitive balance.

I mean, this is always a thing with science fiction. Look at photon torpedoes. I think earlier in the thread you said they had a minimum yield of ~50 megatons? If that's true, then why isn't there a fifty-megaton explosion every time one hits the Enterprise? Shouldn't a fifty-megaton explosion envelop the Enterprise?

Special effects budget, something 40k has never had to worry about in its descriptions.

Or the Death Star. Its generator can output enough energy to instantly disintegrate a planet, but when the station itself explodes, all the fighter ships still within its orbit and all the Ewoks on the planet beneath it are mysteriously unscathed.

An exploding nuclear weapon and an exploding nuclear power plant are going to have vastly differing yields.

Sci-fi always has problems with scale. All I can say is that Warhammer usually keeps to a relatively consistent but still metaphorical definition that often has no connection to reality, and that Star Trek does the same thing, but with nonsense technobabble like "isoton" or "reverse tachyon" instead of Warhammer's bombastic prose.

Except that the "relatively constant" descriptions used in 40k have been growing by leaps and bounds since the era of TNG, as I've been providing examples of. But that's a quality only one side gets to take advantage of.

Couldn't remember if it was third or fourth edition, but yeah. If a full broadside of a ship equals the output of Hiroshima, a fairly low strength blast that doesn't necessarily penetrate fully sealed advanced combat armor makes sense.

I remember that a Space Marine chapter master's orbital bombardment was AP 1, but again, competitive balance. (Or the Space Marines just get better cannons.)

The space marine commander gets the lance strike, which is strength 10, AP 1, because it was objectively the best of the three options, with the weapons bombardment almost never being used.

If I had to explain the discrepancy...maybe it has to do with the inaccuracy of the blast radius, or the majority of the explosive force being absorbed by the ground. It might just be that macrocannons aren't designed for anti-infantry terrestrial bombardment like a Basilisk or a Vindicator is. Otherwise...competitive balance.

Or I already explained it: a limited bombardment by a small section of weapons battery has a chance of being absorbed by advanced powered armor. Which makes perfect sense when a full combat broadside is equivalent to the Hiroshima attack, but not so much when it can supposedly devastate a small continent.