altnameJag said:
And those are the guys that are going to lose?
If this was a science fare then those guys would win for sure, but this isn't what is discussed.
Sometimes high tech ain't always a good thing. Picard was quite happy to use those antiquated tommy guns cos unlike with phasers, borg shields don't seem to stop those any more then they can stop being punched in the face. It's already been bought up that the imperium's low tech approach in certain aspects makes them resistant to hacking and high tech tomfoolery so no reversing polarities to disable 40k ships or gear, they will always be functional to some degree, whereas the reverse ain't true, the imperium has multiple ways of dealing with advanced tech whether it be technological, or more..magical, just imagine the panic of a federation vessel when they get a curse of the ominissiah psychic power xD Psychic powers is a great equalizer here.
Regarding phasers. Gratz you've desintegrated a guardsman. Now you have 99999+ more to kill, whose weapon might be less fancy then yours, but still kills you just as easily. And their lasguns are easy to maintain and only need sunlight to be charged up, and most importantly those guardsmen are well used to horrible shitty situations whereas the phaser wielders ain't, and if something happens to their precious replicators (which isn't that unusual an occurrence), then they can't handle it well at all. And despite their phasers, close combat melee brawls still happen in the star trek setting (see that siege of whatever the heck its name is episode from ds9), and in that situation the hyper masculine fanatics have a clear edge.
Finally even if i were to agree that lasguns have all the punch of an ak47 (i doubt it but lets roll with it), guardsmen platoons tend to be carrying a lot more weapony then just those, say hello to mr lascannon or mrs melta gun for all your armor busting needs. A heavy bolter might not be state of the art, but i'm sure that would do well too.
And that's neglecting the heavy armor the guard would bring with them, not to mention titans.
So to sum up, your average federation marine might be better armed (emphasis on "might") but it doesn't really matter, as the typical guardsman would be just as effective in a ranged firefight, would have a lot more buddies, and have the edge in physical and mental ability when it comes to working in hellish conditions. I suppose a federation marine would be a better tech whizz but in this regard the imperium's low tech approach works in their favor, you can't really do technological BS to them and their troops are tough enough to function in low tech conditions anyway.
Regarding space combat, whilst the details regarding space combat in 40k is a mixed bag, it's generally accepted they do combat at stupidly long ranges too so don't discount their accuracy too hard.
Honestly i'm a bit skeptical as to how effective federation shields would be, like would they seriously feel nothing if a nova cannon blast hits them? The small pew pew lasers shown in that 1 episode is not quite the same as lance batteries or macro batteries whose ordinance is xbox huge. But I admit i'm not the most sciencey guy so i'd love it if someone who knows more about this could chime in.
And if that doesn't work, there's fucking vortex weaponry and other more exotic ordinance, that's bound to hurt anything in the blast radius.
Going back to long range space duels, i'm a bit puzzled as to how you describe it..
Why do we see federation ships buzzing like flies around borg cubes if they could just engage at firefights from the other side of the solar system? Something doesn't quite add up here. Look at the battles against the dominion, where the allied fleet had to break through a blockade, why didn't they just pew pew from the other side of the system if they could rather then rush in almost at point blank range? Je ne comprends pas.
Besides 40k ships might be big, but don't discount their movement abilities. They use the warp for travel which is faster (well usually, the warp isn't an exact science) then the warp (this is gonna get confusing xD) used by the feds when long distances are involved. For short distances imperial ships are perfectly capable of doing short jumps so they would just warp out next to the fed ships rather then stay there all helpless and ineffective as they get pounded by ordinance that apparently outranges them (which i'm skeptical about, in battlefleet gothic it's said ships do combat at stupidly long ranges, whereas no star trek episode i've ever watched made a point about this).
Regarding the other pieces of tech, why do we never see them used then? None of what you described was used against the dominion, nor against the borg. So either the federation hasn't the ability to use these means en mass, it isn't as reliable as you make it out to be, or are just unwilling to use these weapons no matter how dire the situation and if we are counting imperial bureaucracy as a factor against them, it's only fair the federation's psychological disadvantages apply too.
Regarding planet busting weapons, i'm confused when you say "one faction" as if it was only the feds who can do such things. They can't seed a planet with life, but when it comes to blowing them up the imperium are just as good in that regard with their cyclonic torpedoes. Dunno if they can do it from super long distances, but it isn't a big deal to just send a few ships to glass a planet in the 40k setting.
Replicators are the federation's true ace in the hole but that really only comes to play in an extended conflict and are also their achilles heel.. As mentioned before, if they were to lose access to a replicator for w/e reason, federation forces don't do well at all, whereas 40k soldiers are used to hellish hardships and remain combat effective no matter what happens to their gear.
Finally lol at federation going on the offensive. Check out the maps i posted before. The federation simply doesn't have the manpower or ability to conquer and invade the imperium in its home turf, and it would take a long time to blow everything up via long range torpedoes (which im sure the 40k side would have some sort of defense against), and the imperium can absorb plenty of losses before it really feels anything. The same is not true on the reverse side, let's say the imperials send a battlefleet straight to earth, like the borg have done before, it would be a relatively short journey for them, and this would force the federation to gather up and face them or lose everything.
And that's the obvious approach, when you think about how much damage a callidus assassin could do as she infiltrates starfleet command, the Imperium has plenty of tools at their disposal whereas for the federation you really have to start stretching to give them a chance.
And if the federation is like necrons, then it's gg for them. The imperium can already handle a foe with a tech level like the federation by your own admission here, usually in adverse circumstances for the imperium to boot, except federation personel dont rebuild themselves after they die and are far weaker overall to the point a guardsman would feel confident about taking them on regardless of their phasers and they don't have anything big and scary like a c'tan in their arsenal.
bastardofmelbourne said:
This match-up has already been dealt with in canon. It's the Imperium versus the Tau.
The exact same factors apply; the Federation is comparatively small in territory and population, but have more reliable FTL and a more liberal approach to technology and diplomacy. Whereas the Imperium is simply far too massive for the Federation to ever have a significant short-term impact. They could conquer a hundred planets a year and it'd still take them a century to really damage their opponent.
I more or less agree with most of what you say, but just one note about FTL. I suppose like the tau, their FTL is more reliable, but it isn't faster, and that's a key factor. 40k ships via the warp can cross larger distances in a much faster time.
This makes me think.. LOL if the federation attempts to try to understand the secret of warp travel (which they probably would do seeing how one of their key strengths is their ability to reverse engineer tech).. Now suddenly the imperium isn't their biggest problem, it's the fact that they have suddenly invited the forces of chaos right to the door step and now they have to deal with daemons and corruption, something that is completely new to them and worst, something against which the scientific approach is completely useless since you're no longer dealing with forces that obey the laws of physics. But then that would no doubt invite the attentions of the Qs and....Ok i guess a scenario of only the federation vs only the imperium really can't work.
