Poll: Stannis vs. Daenerys - Better claim?

[WolfThomas]

Speaking as someone who has read the first book, owns the rest, and intends to read them and has watched the first three seasons of the show, Stannis is a bumbling fool with great military skill who puts too much stake in his "right" quelling the inevitable shitstorm of the brother of the different bumbling fool sitting the Throne by force. His tactics and his blind devotion to his belief in results above all else, using blood magic to try to secure victory because it definitively killed Renly, simply won't get him there either. Best exemplified by his siege of King's Landing. He went in attempting a straight forward siege where everything factors down to troops. Tyrion, wildfire, and tunnels destroyed him. The same "by-the-books" mindset Burrica mentioned left him open to some actually very simple trickery.

If you were actually paying attention to the books, you'd notice Tyrion didn't actually defeat Stannis. The massive Lannister-Tyrell army with perfect timing lead by a "Ghost" did. Despite the Wildfire and chain, in the space of half a day most of Kingslanding's defenders were in route and it's commander bleeding in the mud, while nearly all of Stannis land forces were intact, with ships upriver of the Wildfire.

Had Stannis' navy arrived earlier he would have taken that city. Or had they been delayed he would have not been caught by the Tyrell-Lannister forces.

Daenerys on the other hand has a much stronger "claim" both in terms of personality and in potential to bring force. She has a very strong sense of justice 1, whether that justice is right or wrong needs to be tested against people that aren't employing slaves as that is a very black and white issue, and has garnered immense idolization from her followers. She is capable of bringing to bear a lot of power. If I'm remembering the conversation properly, The Conqueror brought the Seven Kingdoms to heel through his one dragon 2. Daenerys has three dragons in addition to 8,000-10,000 properly trained devoted soldiers that won't fear the Westorosi plus her 200,000 followers from Yunkai which are more in line with the common Westoros soldier.3

1. Daenarys is so keen on Justice she had a Wineseller's daughters tortured in front of him to get information

"We have no captives but this wineseller?"

"None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon."

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon?s mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply."

"I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him."

"Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly. (ADWD DANY II)

Not to mention the 163 men she had crucified without investigation or trial.

2. Aegon the Conqueror had three century old dragons of a size that could swallow ships. Dragons that could still be killed by conventional weapons. Look up Meraxes, killed by a scorpion bolt. Not babies.

3. Yes because the Westerosi will love an invasion of foreign soldiers.

In Westoros you hear a lot of talk of how the lords need to keep their bannermen focused and targeted, otherwise they start wanting to return home and/or turn to infighting. These bannermen aren't trained either. They're basically commoners being drafted into the fight. This is not an effective army, no matter how many bannermen you call you're just multiplying your problems. For all his ridiculous posturing and his anger issues, Joffrey had the right idea all the way back in the first season, a standing army. It's pretty much exactly what's used today.

Westerosi soliders are actually quite professional. They use the feudal system which means most levies while probably farmers and landowners in peace are still expected to maintain arms, armour and training.

Two examples, the men the Freys join to Robb's force
Behind her came ser jared frey, ser hosteen frey, ser danwell frey, and lord walders basterd son ronald rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silver grey cloaks...
The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men at arms on foot, remained on the east bank under the command of roose bolton.

Men with mail and pikes. Not a rabble.

And in the Battle of the Green Fork

His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standerds above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines to east and west of the road, and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares, behind were rank on rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lydden and serrett with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More then three quarters of the knights were there massed together like a great steel fist. Ser adam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standerd bearer shook it out, a burning tree, arange and smoke. Behind him flew ser flements purple unicorn the brindled boar of crakehall the bantam rooster of swyft, and more. His lord father took place on the hill where he had slept. Around him the resrve assembled, a huge force half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord tywin almost always chose to command the reserve...
Were the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lances the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers rusted swords half trained boys from the stews of lannisport, and tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

Note only the Flank Tyrion is on is anything less than professional and that's part of the trap Tywin sets for Robb.

If I've left anything out or am hilariously misinformed, correct me. I'd love to see this conversation develop more.

To be honest the only part of your statement I agree with is Stannis' great military skill.

Happy to further discuss.

 

[rcs619]

Stannis is just another pretender to a throne that his brother unjustly usurped from the rightful king Aerys Targaryen. By blood and by right, the only person with any true claim to the throne is Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, The Breaker of Chains, True Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and Mother of Dragons.

Seriously though, Stannis would be a terrible king. He's ever bit impersonal and uninspiring as Robert was a drunken doofus. He'd probably be a damned good Hand, or head of the army though. He's the kind of guy who can latch onto a goal, or a mission and beat it into utter submission, not someone who should be sitting at the head of the decision-making process. He could rule people, but he could never endear himself to them in any way. Daenerys though, she's got that bit in spades. She just needs the right circle of advisers to keep her youth and inexperience from borking things up too much.

Also, well, the dragons are kind of a clincher if she can ever get a feel for controlling the damned things. A few more years and they'll be as big as small houses. Except, houses that fly and breathe fire and eat the badguys.

But yeah, in short... Woo! Go team Daenerys. Targaryen/Lannister 2016. You can't spell empire without Imp.

 

[WolfThomas]

Stannis is just another pretender to a throne that his brother unjustly usurped from the rightful king Aerys Targaryen. By blood and by right, the only person with any true claim to the throne is Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, The Breaker of Chains, True Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and Mother of Dragons.

Unjustly usurped ser? Westeros is a feudal society, there is give and take between King and Lord. Aerys broke the social contract when he unjustly executed Rickard and Brandon Stark and ordered Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert.

They then lost and all of the Lords of the Seven Kingdoms bent the knee to Robert. The Throne is currently Baratheon's.

The only claim Daenarys has is by force (which admittedly an army and dragons are good for).

 

[HemalJB]

My vote depends on whether Stannis sacrifices Shireeen or not. If he does, then he's lost my vote, as even kings should have lines he must not cross.

 

[Exterminas]

It's clearly Danny.

Stannis' claim rests on the assertion that all of Cersei's children are bastards. He can not prove that.

Danny's claim rests on the fact that Robert usurped the throne. This is a commonly known fact that does not need proving.

So yeah, Danny has the better claim, because she doesn't have to rely on easily contested claims of incest.

 

[WolfThomas]

Spoiler: It is stuff like this that makes me a King's Man

Now when can we expect a damn Vinyl Pop Figurine?

 

[Ariseishirou]

I was team Dany in the books right up until ADWD, but the show has made me team Stannis pretty hard. He's actually quite charismatic in the show, in a hard, pragmatic sort of way, whereas in the books I never really thought so. Book!Stannis I have a hard time imagining uniting all the factions, but Show!Stannis could absolutely do it.

On the flipside, whereas I lost just about all respect for Dany in ADWD, the show has cut most of the crap that made that the case, so I'm less inclined to write her off, too...

Ultimately, though, Dany conquering the Seven Kingdoms is 100% selfish, whereas Stannis is the one ruler who's actually doing what's really important: i.e., fighting at the Wall to save humankind.

In terms of legal claim? It's whoever wins the fight, right?

 

[Terminal Blue]

My vote depends on whether Stannis sacrifices Shireeen or not. If he does, then he's lost my vote, as even kings should have lines he must not cross.

I suspect (and actually kind of hope, on a thematic level) that he will.

Spoiler

Stannis is believed by Melissandre to be Azor Ahai reborn. The original Azor Ahai, according to a legend told to Davos Seaworth in the books, forged the original Lightbringer (also called the "red sword of heroes") by sacrificing his wife. The theme of the story, and a major theme of the series, is that power requires sacrifice. In order to be a hero and save the world from darkness, Azor Ahai had to destroy the person who was most precious to him.

There's also kind of a potential metacommentary here about dramatic heroism. The people who are the heroes in the typical fantasy setting would be terrifying in real life. Being a hero shouldn't be something anyone wishes for, it's at best a terrible, terrible necessity.

 

[jklinders]

If we are talking legally then Stannis. He is the rightful heir after all. the Targaryens were removed when Danyerius(sp) was a baby.

But this is a civil war. Whoever has might has right. Dany might be able to take it, but I doubt she can keep it.But whoever wins that war will decide who sits on that seat. Honestly that kinda looks like the white walkers at this point so maybe it'll be the the leader of the white walkers.

 

[FalloutJack]

Vote Tyrion Lannister - The only SANE person to rule.

Which is exactly why he'll never ever get himself on the throne. The real power is behind it, and that's where he does his work.

Which is why the ultimate irony would have to be his ascending to the throne because anybody else even REMOTELY viable would have killed each other. Admit it, you want it to happen because it would annoy him AND it would be funny AND we want to see what he would DO with it.

 

[Evonisia]

Both of them have pretty poor claims:
Daenerys claims to be the leader because her family was usurped. That means the only way she's getting it back is by usurping the usurpers.
Stannis claims to be the leader because Cersei's children are bastards. There's no proving that, and the only way we know it's remotely true is because Cersei told a dead man that she didn't pleasure Robert like that. Or in the TV show, they could be Robert's children given that she tried at least once to have a proper kid with him, so what would stop her from trying again for at least one of the other three kids (she still claims to have loved him even after the fever).

 

[viscomica]

Stannis has more claim than Daenarys, but to me, neither of them could really claim the throne. I do think that a lot of people want Daenarys to ultimately take it and be the next person to rule but I just don't see it happening. I think what the author has in mind for those characters is different than what they expect for themselves.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

In terms of the laws of Westeros, I'd say Stannis' claim is stronger (although arguably Tommen's is still the strongest yet as his illegitimacy isn't widely accepted). All the great houses have accepted the rebellion and treated Robert's right to rule as legal, so it follows that they accept his line of succession, not the Targaryen line. In the eyes of Westeros, the Targaryen's are gone.

Besides...

Spoiler

... If Aegon proves to be legitimate, he takes precedence over Danaerys as well. Personally, I'm all for Aegon.

Still, 'might is right' is the only real way this is going to be decided. Whoever ends up on the throne at the end has the best claim, and that's all you can say, really.

 

[Silvanus]

ITT: Thirty-one traitors to the crown, attainted and accursed. Your time will come.

 

[samgdawg]

If you were actually paying attention to the books

Speaking as someone who has read the first book

I would have payed more attention to them if I'd had a chance to read the rest of them yet. As for the rest of your post, those are all really good points. I'll admit I didn't factor in the obvious difference between Dany's three "Oh shit, it's a dragon, send some guys to shoot it down" size dragons and Aegon's three "OH SHIT HE ATE OUR SHIPS!" size dragons. Thank you for clearing the misrepresentation I had of the Westoros soldiers.
And you're right the Seven Kingdoms would probably have a few things to say about some (from their perspective) random army led by a teenage girl trying to take the Throne.
That's the thing about these discussions. When you take away the gray zones of whose claim is more "right" and try to deduce endgames from these situations it can get very murky in terms of the hugely complex socioploitical systems and subtle power plays from the countless houses. It's a lot of fun. I'll go ahead and back out as I'm seeing things being discussed I have no clue about as I'm still in the act of catching up with everyone else.

 

[bat32391]

Well throne was taken by force in the first place so I say the one that have the strongest army will take the ugly piece melted metal. it won't matter in the end, when winter comes the true king in the north will conquer all.

 

[Recusant]

And the the kingdoms should be aparts is also pretty stupid, it will just lead back to the days of constant fighting and blood feuds, it's a short term solution that just gonna make everything worse.

Fighting and blood feuds? What do you think is going on now? It's not a stupid idea at all; if you dissolve the empire and restore each kingdom to individual sovereignty, you undercut the main reason for these massive wars; you can't claim the throne if there's no throne to claim. The Targaryens only unified the region militarily; once their strength was gone, it would've all come crashing down sooner or later anyway. Seven separate kingdoms will no doubt have border skirmishes and minor wars, but without the hollow shell of unity they have now, massive-scale wars like they're currently experiencing will be impossible.

 

[Denamic]

The iron throne is earned, as I understand it. The one who wins it has the better claim.