Poll: Star Wars VII's lightsaber combat changes, yay or nay? (Spoilers)

[DefunctTheory]

it's there own interpretation, i mean i don't know what they where on when they saw it. but I do believe they saw what they say.

...And I never understood the "reading to much into things' argument. Are we supposed to consume media in exactly the way the creater thought we should? All art is a pointless thought piece. Overthinking it is the point.

I certainly have no problem with reading into minor details and theorycrafting, but...

I felt like the most recent fight was the one with the least teeth to it. At least in the prequels it felt like if they hit with the saber, someone was losing a limb. Ren would have to be an amazing swordsman to make the cuts that he did. The aim and the precision needed to not cut Finn all the way through the back to the front is ridiculous. Remember, all the other lightsaber cuts on flesh in the series had no resistance.

That's speculation completely removed from everything on the screen, and presented as fact, no less. Its about on the same level as me speculating Finn has a 4 headed penis made of copper plated granite that makes it hard for him to move because he stumbled a few times while running. Darth Jar-Jar is more firmly rooted in reason then that.

Oh well. Like many things, it bothered me more then it probably should. It is what it is.

 

[Schtimpy]

That's speculation completely removed from everything on the screen, and presented as fact, no less. Its about on the same level as me speculating Finn has a 4 headed penis made of copper plated granite that makes it hard for him to move because he stumbled a few times while running. Darth Jar-Jar is more firmly rooted in reason then that.

Oh well. Like many things, it bothered me more then it probably should. It is what it is.

Hey dude, I backed off on that point/paragraph/post when I re-watched the movie. You even referenced a line from my second post. Please, if you're going to imply I'm a drooling idiot, could you look at my current opinion instead of my earlier one?

Also, I'm using only what I see on screen. Everyone here is calling them sloppy and they weren't. Yeah, the fight was brutal, but the wounds are almost surgical for people who shouldn't be thinking clearly, and raises some weird questions. Why did Rey try to subdue Ren instead of killing him? Why did Ren choose such a weak and complicated kill blow when his usual move, a chop, would have been more effective? That video with the 10 inch misses from the prequels makes a good point, but isn't using only the tip of the blade just as silly?

Anyway, you can ignore everything I said, and my point still kinda stands. The fight lacked teeth. There was no permanent damage. The end was indecisive. Look at the first 3 movies.

4: Obi-wan dies.
5: Luke looses hand, falls seemingly to death.
6: Vader looses hand, Emperor falls to death.

Plot stuff happens. What happened in the Force awakens? The main characters got away and Rey is slightly better at Jedi-ing. The fight was just as pointless as the fights in the prequels. Yes, there are more character moments, but it was still wasted time.

 

[Hoplon]

Plot stuff happens. What happened in the Force awakens? The main characters got away and Rey is slightly better at Jedi-ing. The fight was just as pointless as the fights in the prequels. Yes, there are more character moments, but it was still wasted time.

It's the title of the film, Rey (and possibly Finn) awakened to the force. Rey (and possibly Finn) are on the path now, towards the light or the dark. the whole film was building a foundation for that to be explored.

That's why Starkiller base is so throw away, why there is not much character exploration. the point was to start the journey, not finish it.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Hey dude, I backed off on that point/paragraph/post when I re-watched the movie. You even referenced a line from my second post. Please, if you're going to imply I'm a drooling idiot, could you look at my current opinion instead of my earlier one?

For some reason, I didn't think that was you. No idea why. Who's the drooling idiot now?

In any case, I offer my apologies, for what its worth.

Just one more comment though.

Anyway, you can ignore everything I said, and my point still kinda stands. The fight lacked teeth. There was no permanent damage. The end was indecisive. Look at the first 3 movies.

4: Obi-wan dies.
5: Luke looses hand, falls seemingly to death.
6: Vader looses hand, Emperor falls to death.

Plot stuff happens. What happened in the Force awakens? The main characters got away and Rey is slightly better at Jedi-ing. The fight was just as pointless as the fights in the prequels. Yes, there are more character moments, but it was still wasted time.

Han Solo is fucking dead. Finn's spine is probably in two pieces. Kylo Ren has more ventilation holes then a Death Star. A planet gets replaced by a star, the Republic is gone, and Luke Skywalker returns to the fray, which isn't a big deal to us but is huge for everyone in universe. Just because no ones limbs came flying off and no one self-disintegrated doesn't mean nothing happened and no one got hurt.

Though I do accept that the ending was... underwhelming. The film is admittedly weak when it came to closing up just about anything. I voiced similar concerns in the Star Wars Spoiled Mega-Thread: Luke shouldn't have gotten a 5 minute multi camera shot 'stand and blink' scene (Honestly, that Luke business felt like it took half an hour and just trashed the already confused pacing of the film), and the Starkillers destruction is completely overshadowed by Ren/Rey's confrontation. But permanent damage/stuff was all over the place.

 

[Jute88]

And Kylo was just hacking away like the unbalanced beast he is.

In fact, Kylo Ren's use of his lightsaber was perfectly characterized through out the movie. His tantrums were just furious, undirected destruction. And at the beginning when he cut down Max Von Sydow (whatever the hell he was doing in this movie), it was so unnecessary looking. He swung his saber up over his shoulder and slashed down, like he was using a broadaxe rather than an elegant and nearly weightless weapon. He was clearly an undisciplined saber user, lots of wasted motion and vicious strokes with no form. In fact, in the ongoing debate of whether it was fair or not that Rey beat Ren at the end is answered, for me, by the fact that Ren was clearly not well-trained with a lightsaber, on top of his injuries and emotional state.

Also, his light saber looked really unbalanced. It looked more like a flame than a steady beam of light. I'm surprised it didn't blow up on his face.

 

[Schtimpy]

-Snip-

-Snip-

My bad. Forgot to put the words "lightsaber duel" after the force awakens. Didn't realize I had too. I am and have been specifically talking about lightsaber duels. In this thread about lightsaber duels.

In the other movies, lightsaber duels had consequences. The only real consequence of this duel was Finn being injured and Ren getting pissy at Rey for cutting his face. For Finn, that depends on the next movie. I will eat my words if he dies, is bedridden for half of the next movie, or even if it aches like a war wound. This movie by itself? Finn effectively got knocked out and will wake up fine and healthy in a hospital bed. Sci-Fi medicine. He's one of the big three, right? Immortal until the next trilogy. For Ren, I guess he just keeps wearing the mask. Most of what happened outside the duel would have happened without the duel. Seriously, what happened because of the duel besides what I said above?

Anyway, I'm not talking plot, even though I used that word (I'm bad with words). I'm talking teeth. Consequences. Basically, not having someone die, or be injured obviously, makes it so when the next duel comes around, there is less tension. Shit got real when the lightsabers came out. People died when the lightsabers came out. Not in the new series though.

Well, except Han, but dude went off a bottomless pit before he died. He's fine.

(...too soon?)

 

[DefunctTheory]

My bad. Forgot to put the words "lightsaber duel" after the force awakens. Didn't realize I had too. I am and have been specifically talking about lightsaber duels. In this thread about lightsaber duels.

In the other movies, lightsaber duels had consequences. The only real consequence of this duel was Finn being injured and Ren getting pissy at Rey for cutting his face. For Finn, that depends on the next movie. I will eat my words if he dies, is bedridden for half of the next movie, or even if it aches like a war wound. This movie by itself? Finn effectively got knocked out and will wake up fine and healthy in a hospital bed. Sci-Fi medicine. He's one of the big three, right? Immortal until the next trilogy. For Ren, I guess he just keeps wearing the mask. Most of what happened outside the duel would have happened without the duel. Seriously, what happened because of the duel besides what I said above?

Episode 4:
-Kenobi dies... and is resurrected. At which point he just continues to do whatever he would have done if he had lived. So no consequences.

Episode 5:
-Luke Skywalker loses a hand... which he promptly gets replaced with a mechanical hand that is only noticeable because he wears a glove over it (Even though it looks like a biological hand when first installed)

Episode 6:
-Vader Loses a hand (Again)... which doesn't make an difference since he's spared at the end. The real final conflict is a curb stomp lightning show between a Jedi who wont fight and an old man who can't stop cackling for long enough to realize the 7 foot black armored giant sneaking up on him.

Episode 1:
-Jinn dies. Like Kenobi, he gets to keep fiddling about.

Episode 2:
-Anakin loses a hand... which is promptly replaced.

Episode 3:
-Anakin executes Dooku after a fight.
-Anakin de-hands Windu after Sidious pretends to need help. Lightning does the heavy work.
-Anakin is again de-limbed... and then, once again, de-de-limbed. Gets scary mask.

Episode 7 Consequences:
-Ren is mutilated and humiliated, which will fuel his rage in Episode 8. Coin flip as to whether it matters.
-Finn is nearly chopped in half, which could possibly carry over. That's more then can be said for every other maimings in the series, all of which were sorted out almost immediately. Coin flip to see if it sticks in any way.
-Rey accepts the force in its entirety, instead of trying to run away from it, only using it in desperate moments. This will certainly carry over.

The vast majority of the time lightsaber duels occur, fuck all sticks. The only people who are consistently murdered by lightsabers are the red shirts.

Is that your complaint? That not enough extras got chopped in half? That is true, but considering the story, not unsurprising. And its certainly not helped by the general lack of convenient, bloodless, comical, who-cares-if-they-die droids.

 

[greatcheezer2021]

this thread is the reason yoda or obi-wan no longer speaks to luke.

nobody understands the magic to star wars. its all become so superficial on the outside and the depth of our characters hollowed to the point where nothing is a story worth remembering anymore.

imagine the best orange you've ever had in your life. remember how you unpeeled the surface and dug into it, cherishing every flavor and having this new taste for oranges? and even though you were left with just the peel, you were looking forward to the next one? do you remember how every discarded peel was uniquely shaped when you peeled it whole?

well with force awakens, its like they handed me an orange skin wrapped around a walnut. i like walnuts too, but when i peeled back the skin i found it was just pulp in a nutshell and when you really got into it, it just crumbled and left shells everywhere which i had to pick up and toss away. little unremarkable fragments scattered on the counter in vague inconceivable shapes which exist only to be thrown away, that of which i shall never fondly reminisce.

i thought back to that orange and remembered the palpable joy i had as a young boy, unlike the crumbs in my teeth and a dry sensation in the mouth. i observe the orange peel in my hand with the bits of walnut shell and longingly think to myself, where did it all go wrong? where was the vitamin c? where was the sweet experience of citrus? where was the excitement? the moments of sweet pitted against sour? the soft edible interior against the hard inedible exterior? the experience that separates the oranges from the apples? the realization that oranges could be so different from apples, but altogether just as satisfying? who was it that decided it would not be this way? how did this happen? who, could have done this?

i bet you fools dont even like oranges. i'll even bet you all dont find juice to be enjoyable. whats the point of enjoying something anymore, if nobody cares? all discussion becomes hollow and devoid of a soul. you are all dead to me. star wars has become a husk of itself, and unlike the ancient turtle who wears it's shell, star wars has become the shell and i, the turtle, who must make his home within it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

In the other movies, lightsaber duels had consequences. The only real consequence of this duel was Finn being injured and Ren getting pissy at Rey for cutting his face. For Finn, that depends on the next movie. I will eat my words if he dies, is bedridden for half of the next movie, or even if it aches like a war wound. This movie by itself? Finn effectively got knocked out and will wake up fine and healthy in a hospital bed. Sci-Fi medicine. He's one of the big three, right? Immortal until the next trilogy. For Ren, I guess he just keeps wearing the mask. Most of what happened outside the duel would have happened without the duel. Seriously, what happened because of the duel besides what I said above?

Alright, you are beginning to reach a bit. Let's look at consequences.

1. Obi-Wan chooses to die. "Strike me down, and I'll become more powerful yada yada". It's not a fight, it's an execution with a willing victim. Obi-Wan retains a speaking part in all three films and continues to hang around giving Luke advice, in exactly the same capacity he did while he was alive.

2. Luke loses a hand and falls down a hole. He is saved at the bottom of said hole with no ill effects from falling, and inside of about ten minutes of screen time has a new hand that looks exactly the same as his old hand. The new hand never appears to trouble him in any way, and actually comes in handy (pun not intentional) when he gets shot in it and it doesn't hurt. The only time the robot hand is not perceivable as a strict upgrade over his human hand is when it serves as a potent reminder about his father's state as "more machine than man". Although mind you, the fucking HAND helped him remember to stay Light Side, so maybe strike that.

3. Vader loses a hand and then kills the Emperor. This was indeed pretty weighty consequences, although Vader dies to Force Lightning and the Emperor dies to a pit.

Total Named Characters Killed by Lightsabers in All Three Original Trilogy Films: 1 (willing victim)

Basically, not having someone die, or be injured obviously, makes it so when the next duel comes around, there is less tension.

Finn was critically injured and had to be more or less medi-vaced off the planet, and was still incapacitated at film's end. Han Solo is dead (from a Lightsaber). Ren is cosmetically scarred, we'll give that one a pass. That's one wound and one serious injury, which is exactly one injury away from the total count of the entire Original Trilogy.

It's true the Prequel Trilogy had a higher lightsaber inflicted body count. It is important, however, to keep in mind two things:

1. The Prequel Trilogy featured hundreds of Jedi and a multitude of Sith.
2. The Prequel Trilogy was fucking horrible and should not be used as a benchmark for anything.

 

[Hoplon]

this thread is the reason yoda or obi-wan no longer speaks to luke.

nobody understands the magic to star wars. its all become so superficial on the outside and the depth of our characters hollowed to the point where nothing is a story worth remembering anymore.

imagine the best orange you've ever had in your life. remember how you unpeeled the surface and dug into it, cherishing every flavor and having this new taste for oranges? and even though you were left with just the peel, you were looking forward to the next one? do you remember how every discarded peel was uniquely shaped when you peeled it whole?

well with force awakens, its like they handed me an orange skin wrapped around a walnut. i like walnuts too, but when i peeled back the skin i found it was just pulp in a nutshell and when you really got into it, it just crumbled and left shells everywhere which i had to pick up and toss away. little unremarkable fragments scattered on the counter in vague inconceivable shapes which exist only to be thrown away, that of which i shall never fondly reminisce.

i thought back to that orange and remembered the palpable joy i had as a young boy, unlike the crumbs in my teeth and a dry sensation in the mouth. i observe the orange peel in my hand with the bits of walnut shell and longingly think to myself, where did it all go wrong? where was the vitamin c? where was the sweet experience of citrus? where was the excitement? the moments of sweet pitted against sour? the soft edible interior against the hard inedible exterior? the experience that separates the oranges from the apples? the realization that oranges could be so different from apples, but altogether just as satisfying? who was it that decided it would not be this way? how did this happen? who, could have done this?

i bet you fools dont even like oranges. i'll even bet you all dont find juice to be enjoyable. whats the point of enjoying something anymore, if nobody cares? all discussion becomes hollow and devoid of a soul. you are all dead to me. star wars has become a husk of itself, and unlike the ancient turtle who wears it's shell, star wars has become the shell and i, the turtle, who must make his home within it.

i think you remember an orange when at best it was a clementine.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

PPS. Check out choreographed lightsaber duels on youtube, they're really good

The best YouTube lightsaber duel I've seen yet is Ryan vs. Dorkman 2.


But yeah, the fight in TFA felt weighty. It looked like they were actually swinging and hitting weapons against each other, trying to kill each other, while everything in the prequels looked more like they were just trying to impress each other at a rave party. (The MTV-style editing helped things none- it's like Lucas was terrified of focusing on any one shot in a non-CGI action sequence for more than two seconds.) The original trilogy was hampered a bit by not really giving any sort of combat training to Alec Guinness, Mark Hamill or David Prowse, but there was enough feeling behind the fights (especially the last one between Luke and Vader) to carry things along.

 

[Schtimpy]

-Snip-

So this has been a wild ride for me. Sorry it's been weird, but I've been figuring this out as I go along. Jumping back to 'plot is important,' and I feel like a hypocrite. I know, I suck, but you guys confused me by bringing up a lot of plot stuff unrelated to the fights. That's my excuse anyway. For what it's worth, thanks man. It's been fun.

Episode 4: Ben went through a massive and important character change. "That shot was one and a million, Kid. Good thing the Space wizard traveled through space and time to tell you how to do it." Obi-wan made victory in the battle of Yavin possible. And getting turned into a ghost is not resurrection. At least, it's a shitty resurrection where only Luke can see him (or the celebration party was way cooler because there were ghosts there)


Episode 5: When you saw Luke in the TFA trailer, in the robe, with his head covered, how'd ya know it was Luke? Him loosing the hand has always been a big part of his character. Then, in the 6th movie, he looks at his hand before sparing Vader.

Episode 6: Emperor died. Probably the biggest single plot beat out of the originals. The guy was sitting on top of a pyramid made out of the galaxy. The whole series has been about the war with the empire. This is a big deal.

Episode 1: Kills Qui-gon. Conspiracy theories aside, he was going to train Anakin. He died. Obi-wan took over. Vader happened. Not saying Qui-gon could have prevented Vader from happening, but Obi-Wan caused it to happen with his poor training.
Oh, and Maul died. No one cared.

Episode 2: Anakin gets floored, saved by a jedi, Dooku gets pissy

Episode 3: Welp, this ones a doozy. Anakin busted out his saber often, and damn does he affect things.
1. kills Dooku (they are in the middle of a war).

2. kills mace (Well, Palp did, but Palp was gonna lose, so meh) Mace wasn't so important, but this is when, and to an extent why, Anakin turns. The choice was forced on him.

3. slaughters the kids, takes over the Jedi temple, loses soul.

4. fights Obi-wan, gets so messed up he can't breathe right anymore.

The point isn't the deaths themselves, its that the fights were very big deciders in how the plot of the movie played out. When you use death and violence as conflict in whatever piece you are creating, this is important. In most films, books, fiction in general, death is just something that happens and then the character is gone. In Star Wars, a great many of the deaths and injuries were important because of how the story played out. Obi-Wan guides Luke to blow up the death star. Luke spares Vader because they are alike, and his hand helped him realize that. Anakin cuts off Maces hand, damning himself.

What happened in 7?

Finn gets floored, saved by a jedi, Ren gets pissy. Basically the same as the most superficial fight of the prequels (ok, second, the Greivous fight was dumb). I just, nothing happened. Just the injuries. Unless plot stuff happens because of this duel, namely Finns injuries and Rey's force ability. I don't count Ren getting pissy as a character moment because he hated them anyway. Finns injuries, on reflection, could be important. I admit that, but does it matter? It's not like Luke's metal hand, the wound isn't going to make him realize or do something. He just got hurt.

Rey's "Awakening" during the fight? Pointless. She learned the Jedi mind trick, in minutes, by herself. Either Rey is one of the greatest potential Jedi of all time, or the Jedi mind trick is stupid easy to learn. Kid's a straight up prodigy, and about to be trained by Luke (who can talk to Yoda). The Awakening already happened, and has yet to fully happen, but it didn't happen there.

Also, if it did, why do you like the plot element that violence and desperation brought someone to the light side? Light side awakening should happen via mediation or something. Dark side's the mid-battle one. Now THAT would make this fight important.

i bet you fools dont even like oranges.

I like you.

Am I still a fool if I never liked oranges in the first place? Not the biggest fan of juice either. Have you ever tried pears though? Oh my god, they're so good, that perfect blend of bland and tang. You haven't lived until you've eaten a pear. Don't even get me started on apples.

(I know you're not talking about fruit, but neither am I.)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Good thing the Space wizard traveled through space and time to tell you how to do it.

Notably, Obi-Wan did not walk Luke through a complex procedure. He literally said "Use the Force" and Luke went ahead and proceeded to do exactly that. I bring this up because it's an important counter-point to the "Rey was too powerful at the end of TFA" lobby, as she overcame a half-trained half-dead Force user, and Luke blew up a moon sized super weapon.

Probably the biggest single plot beat out of the originals. The guy was sitting on top of a pyramid made out of the galaxy. The whole series has been about the war with the empire.

That was the climax of a trilogy of films. Notably, the Emperor was not killed in a lightsaber fight.

In Star Wars, a great many of the deaths and injuries were important because of how the story played out. Obi-Wan guides Luke to blow up the death star. Luke spares Vader because they are alike, and his hand helped him realize that. Anakin cuts off Maces hand, damning himself.

Yes, how the story played out. As in, how the story told over a trilogy of films played out (or in the case of the prequels, a trilogy of films with a FURTHER trilogy of films to inform the events happening within).

Finn gets floored, saved by a jedi, Ren gets pissy.

If the Emperor dying is admissible, so is Han.

It's not like Luke's metal hand, the wound isn't going to make him realize or do something. He just got hurt.

You have no idea if this is the case or not. You're projecting. You're literally soothsaying the next two films in the trilogy in order to make a point that "nothing happened" in this one.

Rey's "Awakening" during the fight? Pointless. She learned the Jedi mind trick, in minutes, by herself. Either Rey is one of the greatest potential Jedi of all time, or the Jedi mind trick is stupid easy to learn. Kid's a straight up prodigy, and about to be trained by Luke (who can talk to Yoda). The Awakening already happened, and has yet to fully happen, but it didn't happen there.

I'm pretty bored of the "Rey is overpowered" nonsense by now. I'm curious as to why it's "pointless" though. Why are Luke's character moments or Anakin's character moments essential viewing, but this character moment is "pointless"? Beyond simply you describing them as such? This isn't how one makes arguments. You don't start with a conclusion and assume your reader is going to fill in the blanks for themselves. We're to understand Luke went through a "massive and important character change" destroying the Death Star...why is Rey's character change (which by the way, is nearly identical...something critics of the film delight in pointing out) "pointless"?

Also, if it did, why do you like the plot element that violence and desperation brought someone to the light side? Light side awakening should happen via mediation or something. Dark side's the mid-battle one. Now THAT would make this fight important.

Rey literally has a moment of peace and clarity in the middle of the duel with Kylo Ren, which allows her to overcome her emotionally erratic and unstable opponent. You did not describe this as "important". You described it as "pointless".

I like you.

Yeah he's great. One of the more lyrical approximations of "stop liking things I don't like" I've read of late, replete with insult. I'd take him to task, but I'm half convinced he's just having a chuckle.

 

[sumanoskae]

Too far in the other direction for my tastes. I think the Phantom Menace duel was the sweet spot; the characters conduct themselves like swordsman with actual skill and enhanced physical abilities, but the choreography still makes sense. What people seem to miss is the fact that, in the original trilogy, the way the characters fight is not realistic for a professional swordsman.

Half the time, they swing their fucking sabers around like bats, and their footwork is totally off. That's not even considering the factor of speed. The rate at which the characters move their weapons in the prequels is actually closer to the speed of a real sword fight.

When it comes to combat choreography I always end up referring back to Kung Fu movies; the action should be logical, clear, and fluid. That isn't to say it should be devoid of accident or grit, just that if you're goal is to create an exciting action sequence, the fight will be more interesting if the combatants know what they're doing.

Granted, the reverse example is no better; the fight with Darth Maul is great, but all the fights Yoda is involved in are nothing but pointless acrobatics and people flailing their sabers around in random directions for no Goddamn reason. The fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin is alright, but it only really remains a lightsaber fight for the first half of it or so, and the tight camera angles and hyperactive speed make it almost impossible to tell what the fuck is even happening sometimes.

If you ask me THIS is what a lightsaber fight should look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c

P.S: Before anyone brings up the issue of individual character's skill, Darth Vader is supposed to have single-handedly hunted down countless Jedi Masters, he should know how to properly wield a saber! As for the new film...

Spoiler

Kylo Ren and his buddies are supposed to have killed all the other Jedi in Luke's new order; I'm not buying that he doesn't know how to fucking fight.

 

[samgdawg]

Don't get me wrong, the prequels were kinda cool in that regard, because the lightsaber fights always felt very active and fast, but more than once, it felt over choreographed, particularly when people were flipping over each other, or this laughable moment which made it feel like they were just trying to be flashy, and weren't actually trying to hit each other.

In the Force Awakens, the fights were dirty, they were strong, and the fighters weren't experienced with lightsaber combat, and it showed. Rey was trying to stab Kylo, and he was just using brute force, so it was interesting to see these two with no real lightsaber training go at it with each other, as opposed to a Jedi Knight vs a Sith Lord.

Also, as for Kylo's crossguard, I think that they are technically vents, as, I believe, that the lightsaber is unstable, and so is probably generating a dangerous amount of energy, and probably getting hot or something.

Yes, yes, a hundred times this. I love that gif. So much. It's so delightfully stupid. Sadly, I've never had real access to enough that I could say I've watched any movies, but I've payed attention.

Regarding combat differences, I do like how overall, regardless of end quality, each trilogy has had its own style. Prequels were fast, kinetic, acrobatic. Almost like a, well, battle between magical space knight ninjas.
The Originals were more basic. The lightsabers were pretty much fancy glowy swords. fun, functional, practical. And even then individual competence could still be seen in these duels.

Now, I'd probably hold off on judgement for one more movie before I say I can really identify the fighting texture for this trilogy but it feels very "beginner". Like each side, even Kylo Ren, were still pretty novice at this whole thing which makes total sense even for Ren due to him only being a Sith, and apparently a somewhat poor one in aspects aside from his temper, for probably only a few years. Rey and Finn, well. That's obvious.

The most important part I feel is your comment on Ren's blade.

I think that they are technically vents, as, I believe, that the lightsaber is unstable, and so is probably generating a dangerous amount of energy, and probably getting hot or something

This is exactly the speculation I've believed since I first saw his lightsaber. Especially if you were to freeze the movie when he's clashing against Rey or Finn you can really see the blade is sort of "crackling" and has energy coming off of it. Meanwhile the actual lightsaber is solid and bright with no variances.

I believe Ren either jury rigged his lightsaber together, not likely considering the story, or otherwise modified his lightsaber so as to amp it up to dangerous levels such that it, like himself, is dangerously unstable and violent, possibly liable to explode or backfire painfully on its wielder or surroundings.

 

[Kyrian007]

I liked ep 7's duels and lightsabers very much. And it's always been a part of what I always found as the least interesting thing about Star Wars... the Jedi stuff. I liked Star Wars for the ACTUAL Star (or interplanetary sci-fi) Wars (specifically the Galactic Civil War.) The greatest moment was the Battle of Yavin, all the lazersword crap was just a "hokey religion." The heroes were the soldiers and pilots, not the good or bad side of some weird cult. That was my viewpoint. As the EU developed I cared little for the "jedi academy" and way more about the continuing adventures of Rogue and Wraith Squadron.

And so with no real love for the lightsaber or combat or magic myself... I look at it as doing it right, from a technical standpoint. The original slower, sweeping, more grand and stageplay dramatic lightsaber fighting of the original trilogy was specifically a technical limitation. The slower style was easier to do the effects for and frankly looked better on 24fps celluloid than any faster movement and combat could have. Plus it took a long time to edit into the final project and anything more intricate would have taken much longer. So, the lightsabers looked like they had weight... and impact when logically they should be weightless except the hilt. So when computers were used to do the editing and animation in the prequels... yes logically it should have looked like more like those bugnutty wire-fu ninja flipouts that were possible to do now. But I (and it seems like a lot of folks agree) believe it lost some of the sweeping grandeur of the original films.

And now that epic grand feeling broadsword stagefighting is back. And Star Wars is good again. It's not just a wire-fu flipout because we can and that's the way it "should have" been done originally. Its good again because it's the way it WAS back when it was good. And that makes all the difference. It's good because now the duels have parallel actual and emotional weight. With the exceptions of the second half of the Darth Maul fight and the final Knobi v. Skywalker fight in Ep. 3, none of the duels of the prequels had real emotional weight. At least in EP 7 we're getting saber duels for better reasons than "we need a cool action sequence here." Maybe "because this is where a duel happened in the original" isn't the BEST reason for a saber duel... but it is better than it was in the prequels.

 

[Schtimpy]

Notably, Obi-Wan did not walk Luke through a complex procedure. He literally said "Use the Force" and Luke went ahead and proceeded to do exactly that. I bring this up because it's an important counter-point to the "Rey was too powerful at the end of TFA" lobby, as she overcame a half-trained half-dead Force user, and Luke blew up a moon sized super weapon.

Luke blew up a space station using a space ship, along with the clarity and insight of the force. I get that. I play video games, and I wreck when I'm in a zen-ish state of mind. Force is probably better than that. Rey pushed a stronger person than her away using a lightsaber, along with the clarity and insight of the force. *shrugs* I don't have an issue with her being a badass with a sword. Zen state is great for swords. I do have an issue with her learning Force Strength without training. Force Pull without training. The Jedi Mind Trick without training. She is overpowered and it has nothing to do with the fight. Unless the training is unneeded, and all potential Jedi can become natural Jedi as they learn their powers. I always felt like the Jedi Mind Trick was a complicated battle of minds, requiring practice, understanding, and a strong will. I guess it's just that purple guys power. Either Rey is overpowered, or my perception of Jedi has been shattered. I'm okay with that, but it is disappointing. Seems less noble to me.

----Luke did learn force pull by the second movie, but he had been hanging out with Ben. Hmmm. Never really did see Luke get taught though. Also, if the above realization is right, Rey is still a little OP. Passing the hurdles two at a time almost, without guidance. For sure moving faster than Luke did.

Yes, how the story played out. As in, how the story told over a trilogy of films played out (or in the case of the prequels, a trilogy of films with a FURTHER trilogy of films to inform the events happening within).

I don't get your point. I'm getting that it's a trilogy? How does the story being in six movies make it so the story can't be considered a single piece?

Probably the biggest single plot beat out of the originals. The guy was sitting on top of a pyramid made out of the galaxy. The whole series has been about the war with the empire.

That was the climax of a trilogy of films. Notably, the Emperor was not killed in a lightsaber fight.

Finn gets floored, saved by a jedi, Ren gets pissy.

If the Emperor dying is admissible, so is Han.

agreed

You have no idea if this is the case or not. You're projecting. You're literally soothsaying the next two films in the trilogy in order to make a point that "nothing happened" in this one.

Yeah, totally am. I have half an excuse though:

For Finn, that depends on the next movie. I will eat my words if he dies, is bedridden for half of the next movie, or even if it aches like a war wound. This movie by itself? Finn effectively got knocked out and will wake up fine and healthy in a hospital bed. Sci-Fi medicine. He's one of the big three, right? Immortal until the next trilogy.

It's not perfect, but at least I said I will eat my words. I just don't think they're going to pull the plug on Finn. He's a star wars character. I wouldn't want to watch him be bedridden and pathetic. I don't think he's dead. If he's going to be in the next movie, what's he going to do if he can't use a gun/lightsaber? Jumped to my own conclusion, but I only see 4 options. Death, Bedridden, war wound, full recovery.

--The Sci-Fi medicine is bacta. That's still a thing, right? Won't fix his ribs, but that's what robots are for. Also, the Immortal thing is dumb. Apparently Poe was supposed to die in this movie and didn't.

I'm pretty bored of the "Rey is overpowered" nonsense by now. I'm curious as to why it's "pointless" though. Why are Luke's character moments or Anakin's character moments essential viewing, but this character moment is "pointless"? Beyond simply you describing them as such? This isn't how one makes arguments. You don't start with a conclusion and assume your reader is going to fill in the blanks for themselves. We're to understand Luke went through a "massive and important character change" destroying the Death Star...why is Rey's character change (which by the way, is nearly identical...something critics of the film delight in pointing out) "pointless"?

Rey literally has a moment of peace and clarity in the middle of the duel with Kylo Ren, which allows her to overcome her emotionally erratic and unstable opponent. You did not describe this as "important". You described it as "pointless".

The reason there is a difference is because of the path she's walking. If she becomes a Light Jedi, it's the third step on the journey. If she becomes a Dark Jedi, that would be a huge shift to her path, and definitely an event. Actually, even if she stays on the Light Path, if she tasted the dark side in the fight, it's still a big deal. Her using her third new force power in a day? It's been done. Meh. I'm more impressed by messing with minds than I am with force strength.

--the massive character change was Ben. Said it was Ben. He's a ghost now.

--Luke's was completely different. He had a ghost say use the force. Rey didn't have guidance, even though she doesn't seem to need it. They are different characters in different situations.

--Her learning the mind trick earlier turns the "I'm a Jedi now!" moment into the "I have Force Strength now!" moment. Not pointless in and of itself, but compared to how important everyone else thinks it is, yeah. Pointless. One force power added. dododo do do do do do,dodo.





_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
EDIT: Alright, at the "Awakens" part, i messed up. What I thought was them crossing blades, and her pushing out and away, was wrong. She was bent backwards over a cliff, and Kylo wasn't pushing. He was trying to recruit her and said "I can show you the force" or something. Her face was all "Oh yeah" and she slid to the side and away. No strength. Basically, my last two points are wrong, and others probably are. Honestly, whatever is my stance now is shrouded in BS. At least I gave you a legit reason she's overpowered.

 

[Hoplon]

Spoiler

Kylo Ren and his buddies are supposed to have killed all the other Jedi in Luke's new order; I'm not buying that he doesn't know how to fucking fight.

In response to this.

Spoiler

No, he didn't, he's never even met a trained jedi, him and the 7 other knights of Ren killed a bunch of learners with no lightsabers. Until the Finn fight he's never fought anyone else with a lightsaber as far as we know. then he run in to a another force user with a light saber and while heavily injured gets his arse kicked, unsurprisingly, since the other person isn't in her first melee combat with live weapons.

I believe Ren either jury rigged his lightsaber together, not likely considering the story, or otherwise modified his lightsaber so as to amp it up to dangerous levels such that it, like himself, is dangerously unstable and violent, possibly liable to explode or backfire painfully on its wielder or surroundings.

Cracked crystal. it can't focus the blade properly and needs to be vented, hence the cross guard.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Either Rey is overpowered, or my perception of Jedi has been shattered. I'm okay with that, but it is disappointing. Seems less noble to me.

Star Wars has always been very fudgy about just what "Jedi training" consists of and how much of it is required. In the original trilogy, Luke's 'training' is ridiculously accelerated, and seems to be the process of having experienced Jedi point out to him that he's innately capable of doing remarkable things. Yoda's primary concern appears to be his emotional state (he's whiny, petulant, impatient and angry) because of the obvious parallels to his father. He wants Luke to work on clearing his mind, confronting his fears, etc. For example, we see Luke use telekinesis once before going to Dagobah, right? He barely pulls his saber free of a snow bank. Yoda is like "Lift your ship out of the swamp". Luke says that's impossible, it's too heavy. Yoda doesn't want him to do Force Lift repetitions until he's up to it, he just wants him to DO it. The implication in that scene is he can't because he's a big doubting griper, not because he's an untrained rookie.

It was the prequels that gave us the notion of a bunch of "younglings" standing around (wearing blast helmets and fighting training droids...shit that was ostensibly just lying around the Falcon and put into use by Obi-Wan but now kids at a Jedi Academy are using it because GEORGE IS SO ORIGINAL but I digress). Yoda does say Luke is too old to begin his training, but A) he obviously wasn't, and B) it always seemed his "training" to me was learning to settle down and not be an emotional basket case.

Your mileage may vary, but I find the idea of Jedi as "super heroes" with tremendous natural power who must constantly walk an emotional tight rope to stop themselves from becoming power mad more noble/interesting than Rocky style training montages or lightsaber school.

Also, if the above realization is right, Rey is still a little OP. Passing the hurdles two at a time almost, without guidance.

I think it's very likely you're going to find out in Episode 8 that Rey DID have guidance. Luke is almost certainly her father, she was almost certainly trained at his academy before it was destroyed, during her force vision sequence you see her being left on Jakku in what looks exactly like Padawan clothing,

From this article on her Force visions (for the sake of expediency:

http://spoiledbluemilk.com/2015/12/25/reys-force-vision-and-what-it-says-about-the-backstory-to-the-force-awakens/

Spoiler

We see the Knights of Ren standing in the rain over the bodies of the slain Jedi. Did he recover the saber of Anakin/Luke when he killed the Jedi? This could explain why he later says it belongs to him. Rey is also in this shot, and it appears that she might be re-experiencing events that traumatized her way before the events of TFA. We believe that Rey was once a Jedi padawan or youngling and was present at this event. One tantalizing idea is that Luke gave the saber to Rey, the padawan, and it was taken by Kylo from her at this moment. It could be that Luke gave it to Rey because she is a Skywalker (Luke?s daughter) and perhaps the jealousy associated with this could have seeded the anger that led to Kylo?s actions. This is a bit of speculation on my part, but I think it is an interesting idea and could be part of why the saber calls to Rey. Again, all this is assuming that the first theory that the vision is all connected to the saber. It could also be the second theory that this has nothing to do with the saber, and it is purely a repressed memory of Rey.

We next see what looks like could be one of the Knights of Ren being killed by Kylo Ren. We see a character that looks a bit like the Fifth Brother from Rebels being stabbed by a red saber. I don?t actually think it is the Fifth Brother, but the resemblance is worth pointing out due to the speculation that some have had that the Knights of Ren emerged from Vader?s Inquisitors. Now this scene says something amazing because it suggests that Kylo actually saved a young Rey from this guy. It could be part of Kylo?s struggle with the light/dark balance and the fact that the light side of the Force impacts him. Did he save Rey because he recognizes her as family, like his cousin (or sister)? Or was he just saving a young padawan that he felt compelled to?

Next we see Rey as a child standing next to Unkar Plutt, and being held back by him as she calls for whoever dropped her off to come back. It is the same crying that calls to Rey to go down the stairs and find the saber. I?m pretty sure this is the same crying after my fourth viewing of the movie.

I don't get your point. I'm getting that it's a trilogy? How does the story being in six movies make it so the story can't be considered a single piece?

I'm saying that crediting an event in one film paying off in another (such as Luke's robot hand) is viewing a trilogy as a completed work. TFA is one film of a trilogy. We can't say if or how things will pay off yet, or what impact they'll have.

It's not perfect, but at least I said I will eat my words. I just don't think they're going to pull the plug on Finn. He's a star wars character. I wouldn't want to watch him be bedridden and pathetic. I don't think he's dead. If he's going to be in the next movie, what's he going to do if he can't use a gun/lightsaber? Jumped to my own conclusion, but I only see 4 options. Death, Bedridden, war wound, full recovery.

There is really nothing in the Star Wars universe that suggests he'll be bedridden and pathetic, no. Anyone who isn't killed in Star Wars seems to come back in reasonable working order. Even Vader survived four lost limbs and third degree burns over his entire body with just a touch of space asthma to show for it. The question is whether or not getting hacked up informs Finn's character in some way, not whether he's got a pronounced limp.

Apparently Poe was supposed to die in this movie and didn't.

Interesting, where'd you read that?

The reason there is a difference is because of the path she's walking. If she becomes a Light Jedi, it's the third step on the journey.

Very very important to remember that this isn't just Rey's journey. Kylo Ren isn't Darth Maul, he's not here to glower for the camera and get knocked over by the protagonist so she can level up. He's basically a core character on his own, arguably as important as Rey (and certainly the beneficiary of more character building beats in Episode VII). Losing that fight is as important to his arc as winning it was for Rey's. Her journey was about a transition from isolation and privation to family and destiny. His is about his internal struggle to balance the darkness and the light, and his desire to extinguish the latter because he believes sentiment was Vader's downfall. Being scarred and humiliated by a girl (likely a cousin or a sibling) he might have had a hand in sparing is going to have watershed impact for him.

At least I gave you a legit reason she's overpowered.

Well, she's definitely powerful. Like Ben Solo and Luke/Anakin Skywalker, odds are overwhelmingly likely she's the heir to a legacy of ridiculously capable force sensitives. Whether she's overpowered or appropriately powered will depend on your view of protagonists and how much power they should hold (I.E. superheroes, Neo, Luke in the OT, etc, etc) and the Force itself and to what degree it seeks to balance itself by investing power in its remaining constituents.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

This is one of the things that stood out to me after seeing the movie, so I'll pretty much dictate what I told my friend then:

The duels in the original trilogy were slow and dramatic, like a Shakespearean play's swordfight. Intentional clashing of blades for a bit --> dramatic dialogue --> repeat. Not a bad approach, but (mostly) not super-fun to watch as far as melee combat scenes are concerned.

The duels in the prequels were so much more kinetic and fun to watch, but were TOO choreographed; they seemed more like a dance than a swordfight, and were almost completely lacking in dramatic intensity.

The duels in Episode VII, to me, were the best of both worlds. Plenty of dramatic intensity, but still fun to watch. And yes, the idea that a lightsaber could graze/wound an opponent was a great touch. I've studied a bit of fencing, and in a duel with rapiers, this is a thing; fatal stabs or chops are harder to obtain, but hitting a non-vital area with the tip of sword is more commonplace.