Poll: Strategy Vs. Tactics

[unit5016]

Hello Escapist,
I have always been horrible at base-building RTS games. However, I am very good at lets say Total War where you have a limited number of troops per battle and have to manage an overall economy and do some more prep time. I am trying to figure out why this is so and I have a feeling its due to games like Starcraft 2 requiring more on the fly reaction speeds and tactics,whereas lets say Shogun 2: Total War requiring a deeper layer of strategy. Since I am still trying to understand myself this is where I turn to you guys. What do you think the reasons are why many players are good at one RTS but not another or in my case I suck at Starcraft 2 yet am very good at the Total War series? The Tactics or the Strategies?

Post your comments below and feel free to critique my poll options as this is my first attempt.

 

[Luca72]

Starcraft is a weird example. It relies more on an over-arching strategy than any micro tactics (referred to as macro vs. micro). The first five minutes of a Starcraft game are almost always an attempt to perfectly execute the build you're going for while scouting out what the opponents build is. It's not really tactical - it's more about if-this-then-this. Because the beginning of the game is so rigid, the mid-game, which I see as much more tactical, is often colored by how the beginning played out. And the end-game is mostly about massing units of the proper type to counter the enemies units.

So in the case of Starcraft I would say it comes down to better strategies and understanding. Micro doesn't seem to matter nearly as much in SC2 as it did in Brood War or other RTS's (though good micro can definitely save your neck at times!).

On the other hand, I used to really be into Command and Conquer 3, and I feel that that game was actually more about reaction times and tactics. You had more control over your individual units, and a split-second gambit or feint could win you the battle. So it really depends on the RTS. I haven't played a Total War game (but I just watched some of the trailers for Rome 2, and oh, baby...) so I can't way in on that. I'm voting better strategies.

 

[unit5016]

For RTS games like Starcraft there are really two things you need to know to perform well outside of having fast reflexes.

1. Build Orders- One thing about Starcraft games is that the start really is very repetitive because essentially it is you setting up the foundation for your strategy for that game. There is an optimal build order for the most basic strategies out there and if you dont have either the timing or just know the build order then you are going to perform poorly. So it really is about to a point memorizing.

2. Macro/Micro- This is the other thing that people get caught up on because quite simply they don't understand the concept of macrocosms and microcosms. You need to understand that during the entire match you need to constantly monitor the entire map and most specifically your ability to expand which is known as the macrocosm. That is how you setup map control, and expand past your first base.

The other half is the microcosm which as a good example is when you command the main force of your army and instead of letting them shoot at random targets you order them to focus fire each unit to ensure the destruction of the enemy army. However you can also make macro choices which will enable you to micro. One example is with a terrain drop into the enemy base. You can micro the drop squad and let the main army just charge in which is making an effect on the macro. Or you can reverse the roles and just drop the squad and then with your main army take direct control. In either case you are enabling two actions at the same time that will force your opponent to make a choice. And if you are really good then you should be able to give enough Shift-build commands to some SCVs to build enough barracks/factories to rebuild the army you lost at the same time.

Yes, having reflexes are critical but you also need to understand that even in RTS games there are still a foundation of patterns which you can use to build upon that will let you adapt towards your opponent.

Hmm I know about the build orders and such. It sorta reminds me of League of Legends. I suffer from the Total War games where building a balanced army while focusing on your race's strengths really helps. So I just build every building and every unit. I also never scout or harass my opponent even though I know I should. It seems to just be different RTS habits conflicting with each other in my case.

 

[DoPo]

I am also the same - I suck at RTSes but I'm comfortable with turn based games. And I can tell you why is it so (in my case) - TBS games allow for more structured gameplay and most importantly, you can go at your own pace, while when I play an RTS I find juggling the different tasks hard - I frequently get locked onto one aspect of the game - microing the troops leaving my base underdeveloped or macroing while everything I have dies, and similar. I get how to play it, and if I observe a game, I can quite comfortably follow it but when it comes to playing it, I just don't fare well. With TBS games, I have more time to think over what to do and there is a structure to the gameplay, for example: build stuff -> move troops -> research -> end turn -> repeat. This means I rarely lose track of one thing, and I can easily spend the downtime between turns into thinking what to do next time.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Actually, the reason is pace more than anything.

Both games have strategic and tactical decisions. Determining what companies to bring, what their experience and equipment level, and determining your initial deployment pattern in Total War are all strategic choices. By contrast, the equivalent strategic choice in Starcraft is far less obvious. Determination of build order is a strategic choice as is deciding to expand to a secondary base or launch an offensive to do the same.

The moment to moment playing of either game, however, consists of a series of tactical decisions. Here the difference is notable. In Total War, commands are issued often minutes ahead of when they pay out and even the narrowest timing windows are at least several seconds wide. By contrast, because the any particular player action in Starcraft has such a minor impact on a battle, gaining an advantage beyond any gained during the strategic elements (i.e. better economy gave you a significant troop advantage, or you invested in a hard counter to the cornerstone of their current offensive or defensive plan), victory is awarded to the player that can most efficiently issue those minor commands that affect the outcome of the battle.

Functionally, the difference is capacity for rapid action being a necessity to play Starcraft such that efficiency of action is the paramount skill of Starcraft versus a game that requires you to maneuver to meet an opportunity several steps (and maneuvers) into the future.

 

[Bad Jim]

I suffer from the Total War games where building a balanced army while focusing on your race's strengths really helps. So I just build every building and every unit. I also never scout or harass my opponent even though I know I should. It seems to just be different RTS habits conflicting with each other in my case.

Don't build every building. Not in an RTS like Starcraft. A big part of the game, probably the deciding factor in most games, is simply that one player is more efficient at building stuff than the other. Build what you need to. That said, build enough unit producing buildings to ensure you spend your income.

The golden rules of Starcraft:

1) Spend your income. If you die with 2150 minerals, you die with what could have been 32 marines saving your ass, along with the four supply depots and the extra barracks needed to build them. If there is even a hint of not being able to build units as fast as you receive income, build more unit producing buildings.

It is true that keeping up with your income is not easy, and most players often float a couple of thousand minerals as the game gets hectic. However it is also true that the pros are much more efficient about spending their income and this is a big part of the reason why they'll crush the average player. So do try hard to spend your income quickly.

Gas can be more difficult to spend, so don't sweat to much if you have a big surplus, but consider moving some of the workers onto minerals.

2) Make minimal use of unit queues. The thing about Starcraft is that you have to pay in advance. Therefore, having dozens of units tied up in unit queues is just as bad as floating thousands of minerals in the bank. Instead, build extra unit producing buildings and queue up new units just before they finish. But always have a worker or two queued, you don't want to fall behind.

3) Don't stop building workers until you're near the supply cap of 200. You need lots of them.

4) Expand aggressively. More expansions means more money. The game often comes down to who owns the most expansions. If you've played against the AI you might have been disheartened to see every expansion attacked as soon as your build it. Humans, even pros, are nowhere near that quick at discovering expansions and you can generally expect to be in profit before your expansion is attacked even if it is entirely undefended. Just do it.

5) Never be held back by your supply limit. Build those supply depots, overlords and pylons in good time.

6) Research all upgrades that have a significant effect on the bulk of your army. If you have 50 marines, making them deal 7 damage instead of 6 is a well worth the money. Make multiple upgrade buildings so you can upgrade damage and armour and shields (if protoss) at the same time.

7) On the other hand don't waste money on upgrades or buildings that you aren't planning to use, or only deliver a small benefit. 5 marines do not get nearly enough benefit from an extra 1 damage to justify an upgrade.

8) Use your MULE/Spawn Larve/Chonoboost to boost mining/production.

You'll notice I didn't mention scouting. This is because, according to pro player Destiny, if you are below diamond league you have much more important things to worry about than strategy. To prove it, here he is on a smurf account playing his way into diamond league with the mass queens every game, and often telling his opponent he is going mass queens. Mass queens are a terrible strategy, and he could never beat a player his level with them. Yet he wins and wins anyway, because none of his opponents manage their economy as well as he does.


I watched through it a while ago and I remember he lost one game because he himself made a stupid mistake, he researched the wrong attack upgrade. In another game his opponent built thors which are really strong against queens and he cheated a little by building other units. But it was mostly him dominating with mass queens.

So learn to make big armies fast before you worry about what you're building.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I suggest that you try out some games that focus more on the tactics side of things. You said that you were capable of managing armies in Total War very well. I'd recommend you try out Dawn of War Retribution, Company of Heroes, or the Men of War games. They throw base building pretty much out the window (minus some very limited BB in Heroes), and focus entirely on tactics. In Dawn of War 2 especially, so long as you know how to handle your units, you can go with pretty much any build order you want.

 

[unit5016]

I suggest that you try out some games that focus more on the tactics side of things. You said that you were capable of managing armies in Total War very well. I'd recommend you try out Dawn of War Retribution, Company of Heroes, or the Men of War games. They throw base building pretty much out the window (minus some very limited BB in Heroes), and focus entirely on tactics. In Dawn of War 2 especially, so long as you know how to handle your units, you can go with pretty much any build order you want.

Hehe, I already own every Dawn of War game and every Company of Heroes game/expansion (was part of alpha and part of the beta for COH2) and Dawn of War is where I started with RTS games. Yet I still lose in COH because of the same reasons. I tend to build every building and such then get too focused on watching the combat since it looks so cool and intense then lose track of my base and the buying of more units. Like DoPo said, I get too focused on building the base to rush or harass, then I get too focused on the moving and positioning of my men to build more and manage the base. I think too much of Dow2 and Total War is part of the reason.

 

[unit5016]

I suffer from the Total War games where building a balanced army while focusing on your race's strengths really helps. So I just build every building and every unit. I also never scout or harass my opponent even though I know I should. It seems to just be different RTS habits conflicting with each other in my case.

Don't build every building. Not in an RTS like Starcraft. A big part of the game, probably the deciding factor in most games, is simply that one player is more efficient at building stuff than the other. Build what you need to. That said, build enough unit producing buildings to ensure you spend your income.

The golden rules of Starcraft:

1) Spend your income. If you die with 2150 minerals, you die with what could have been 32 marines saving your ass, along with the four supply depots and the extra barracks needed to build them. If there is even a hint of not being able to build units as fast as you receive income, build more unit producing buildings.

It is true that keeping up with your income is not easy, and most players often float a couple of thousand minerals as the game gets hectic. However it is also true that the pros are much more efficient about spending their income and this is a big part of the reason why they'll crush the average player. So do try hard to spend your income quickly.

Gas can be more difficult to spend, so don't sweat to much if you have a big surplus, but consider moving some of the workers onto minerals.

2) Make minimal use of unit queues. The thing about Starcraft is that you have to pay in advance. Therefore, having dozens of units tied up in unit queues is just as bad as floating thousands of minerals in the bank. Instead, build extra unit producing buildings and queue up new units just before they finish. But always have a worker or two queued, you don't want to fall behind.

3) Don't stop building workers until you're near the supply cap of 200. You need lots of them.

4) Expand aggressively. More expansions means more money. The game often comes down to who owns the most expansions. If you've played against the AI you might have been disheartened to see every expansion attacked as soon as your build it. Humans, even pros, are nowhere near that quick at discovering expansions and you can generally expect to be in profit before your expansion is attacked even if it is entirely undefended. Just do it.

5) Never be held back by your supply limit. Build those supply depots, overlords and pylons in good time.

6) Research all upgrades that have a significant effect on the bulk of your army. If you have 50 marines, making them deal 7 damage instead of 6 is a well worth the money. Make multiple upgrade buildings so you can upgrade damage and armour and shields (if protoss) at the same time.

7) On the other hand don't waste money on upgrades or buildings that you aren't planning to use, or only deliver a small benefit. 5 marines do not get nearly enough benefit from an extra 1 damage to justify an upgrade.

8) Use your MULE/Spawn Larve/Chonoboost to boost mining/production.

You'll notice I didn't mention scouting. This is because, according to pro player Destiny, if you are below diamond league you have much more important things to worry about than strategy. To prove it, here he is on a smurf account playing his way into diamond league with the mass queens every game, and often telling his opponent he is going mass queens. Mass queens are a terrible strategy, and he could never beat a player his level with them. Yet he wins and wins anyway, because none of his opponents manage their economy as well as he does.


I watched through it a while ago and I remember he lost one game because he himself made a stupid mistake, he researched the wrong attack upgrade. In another game his opponent built thors which are really strong against queens and he cheated a little by building other units. But it was mostly him dominating with mass queens.

So learn to make big armies fast before you worry about what you're building.

Sorry about the double post everyone!
Right, for me its almost like DoPo's post exactly. I tend to focus on one thing then another like him. With the Terrans I do a little better but my favorite army is the Zerg so building more production buildings is hard. I make the Queens and use them but since the only other way is to build Hatcherys they usually are found and destroyed but like someone said its a bot issue. I guess I should try to make some build orders then? Then I suffer because I have no idea what counters what and then I just build everything. I need to learn when to rush and either to build a ton of zerglings or hydralisks or roaches etc. Thinking about joining the Adopt a Newb group and getting adopted haha.

 

[Auron]

Tenmar has won the thread already but I'll add what I can I guess.

In the end it boils down to training, there's only so much a natural talent will do for you, the really good players play 12 hours a day every week day.

Micro and macro both go together in RTS while more Tactical games with none or very little macro are far easier. I've been into Dawn of War until Relic killed it last year, it was an awesome game as I love micro battles better than macro but it was definitely easier than what was being done in SC2. SC2 is the pinnacle of RTS lately, every other franchise has died or is reorganizing, C&C is coming out on a dangerous f2p model no one knows anything about yet(to pay to win or not to p2w, that is the question!) and if we're lucky microsoft sees their stupidity in killing Emsemble and commissioning age of empires online the cartoon version after AOE 2 HD does well.

 

[Bad Jim]

I guess I should try to make some build orders then? Then I suffer because I have no idea what counters what and then I just build everything. I need to learn when to rush and either to build a ton of zerglings or hydralisks or roaches etc.

Just build one or two unit types and don't fuss over what counters what. Mass hydras are better than a bit of everything or lesser quantities of a better chosen counter.

 

[Smooth Operator]

In SC especially at least 50% of the game goes into finger grind or micro as they call it, and unless you accept that and start bleeding exercises you will never be competitive.
I personally love RTS but high level SC play just seems like a twitchy abortion of what one would normally call strategy.