Poll: Super carrier vs. Battleship

[blind_dead_mcjones]

um..i thought Vs threads aren't allowed here, just sayin'

But those fighters aren't going to magically be able to turn into combat straight from launch. They still have to get to speed and altitude (and probably into some form of formation) before they can then drop altitude and line up an attack run. This is going to add several miles to their distance to the Iowa, and probably several minutes as well.

the average crusing speed of a jet fighter is about 500-700 kilometers an hour, bear in mind that is just crusing speed, not combat speed (combat engagements for jet aircraft are measured in seconds) so to acomplish all that you listed and then get into firing position would take roughly a minute.

and as pyro pointed out it takes all up anywhere between 5 to 20 minutes for the battleship to fire off one volley from its cannons, so while yes the battleship does have a chance at destroying the carrier it only gets one go at it, and nothing short of crippling the carrier in that one go will suffice

 

[blind_dead_mcjones]

the average crusing speed of a jet fighter is about 500-700 kilometers an hour, bear in mind that is just crusing speed, not combat speed (combat engagements for jet aircraft are measured in seconds) so to acomplish all that you listed and then get into firing position would take roughly a minute.

From launch? Catapults only get the aircraft going fast enough to sustain flight. Unfortunately the data I could find on the FA-18 doesn't list how quickly it can go from a catapult launch to speed.

However, I think a minute is being very generous. Considering that the pilot would then have to wait for his squadron (at least his wingman) to launch and form up (you don't think they'd feed a battleship and its AAA system planes piecemeal, do you?) and considering the speeds they will reach, they will have to go some considerable distance out to line up a run, I think you'd be looking a several minutes. Less if they decided not to form up with any wingman, but still considerably more than a minute in my reckoning.

Fact of the matter is aircraft carriers have not been designed to operate at these sorts of engagement ranges, much less without escort! Best case scenario for the carrier is that its fighter compliment forces off or sinks the battleship, but not before the carrier itself was crippled, heavily damaged or sunk itself. Either way, unless the battleship crew was highly incompetent, the carrier is toast.

minimum sustainable flight speed is 250 kilometers an hour (4.16 kilometers per minute, or 60 meters a second), and seeing as during launch the throttle is opened up to full the plane goes from 250 to 500 kilometers an hour (8.3 kilometers per minute, or 140 meters per second) in only a few seconds (this is standard amost all modern jet fighters regards from what they're taking off from) remember these aren't passenger planes but airborne fighters, their engines genrate thousands of pounds of usable thrust and use it instanteously (17700 pounds per engine for the F/A-18 which equals 35400 pounds of thrust alltogether), the power to weight ratio is greater then that of a motorcycle and unlike cars or boats, the only friction that slows them down is from the air

also, AAA fire is relatively easy for jets to avoid, especially when they're being catapulted off of a flight deck (incidentally remember that the delay between aircraft launches is only seconds) and in the time thev'e accelerated from 250 to 500 km/h and simulateously climbed to an altitude of at least 5000ft
the pilots won't have any difficulty getting into formation either, they're trained for this sort of thing and the level of precision they can achieve is equal if not greater than that of aerobatics pilots.

and again as pyro pointed out, anti ship missiles like the HARPOON are usable from a mile away of the target (incidentally they're designed to bury deep into the ship before exploding) and doesn't take long for them to get the distance required especially if going at combat speed which they most certainly will be, a mile is only 1.6 kilometers afterall

an emergency combat sortie at close range is definately achievable, and the crew are trained to be able to achieve that in the unlikely event that a battleship does get that close.

EDIT, got my conversion units mixed up, used seconds when i should've said minutes

 

[Pyro Paul]

ECM. the heavily radar based CWIS systems aren't going to get a lock. and the manual targetting systems for the flak cannons arn't going to hit fast movers like jets.

And the Electronic countermeasures installed on the Iowa won't come into the equation? Or doesn't this ship have such measures?

and a mile is more then enough distance to get lock and fire the harpoon... and this missle can be fired from 20 feet above the water, so altitude is not of concern either.

But those fighters aren't going to magically be able to turn into combat straight from launch. They still have to get to speed and altitude (and probably into some form of formation) before they can then drop altitude and line up an attack run. This is going to add several miles to their distance to the Iowa, and probably several minutes as well.

considering that the ECM on a battleship is effectively chaff blooms... no it doesn't come into the equation. the carrier on the other hand has multipule layers of ECM, considering that is one of their primary forms of defence... from wide band jamming, to thermal flares, to chaff, to a lot of other stuff they are not willing to tell the general public.

and the F-18 doesn't need to gain much altitude or speed.
it has an operational speed of the F-18 is ~500 kph.
it is launched from the catapult at 266 kph.
5 seconds of afterburn thrust easily gets the bird to combat speed.

and it doesn't need altittude. the Harpoon missle is a sea skimmer, it can be launched from as low as 5 meters.

as for the first planes wingman...

if you want to go full combat mode, the Nimitz has 4 steam catapults, it can launch entire squadrons from a clear deck in less then 5 minutes before it changes to the 25 a second launch/retreieve mode cycle cutting down to just 2 or 1 catapults for launches.


but hell, we'll just do this.

SH-60 launching 'Penguine' Anti-Ship missles. that takes all of 20 seconds to do.

Hell, at 1 mile you could just Launch the Missles from the birds on Deck with out them taking off and have a guy with a target painter...

 

[blind_dead_mcjones]

minimum sustainable flight speed is 250 kilometers an hour (4.16 kilometers per second), and seeing as during launch the throttle is opened up to full the plane goes from 250 to 500 kilometers an hour (8.3 kilometers per second) in only a few seconds (this is standard amost all modern jet fighters regards from what they're taking off from) remember these aren't passenger planes but airborne fighters, their engines genrate thousands of pounds of usable thrust and use it instanteously (17700 pounds per engine for the F/A-18 which equals 35400 pounds of thrust alltogether), the power to weight ratio is greater then that of a motorcycle and unlike cars or boats, the only friction that slows them down is from the air

Fair enough. But the amount of fuel and ordinance they carry will have an effect on the top speed and range. A fully loaded fighter will take longer to get up to speed than an unloaded one, but I think that's irrelevant to the scenario at hand.

while yes a fully loaded fighter is heavier than an unladen one the diference in performance is ony a small one

also, AAA fire is relatively easy for jets to avoid, especially when they're being catapulted off of a flight deck (incidentally remember that the delay between aircraft launches is only seconds) and in the time thev'e accelerated from 250 to 500 km/h and simulateously climbed to an altitude of at least 5000ft

I disagree there. An aircraft flying in a relatively straight line? I can't think of an easier target. Takeoff and landing are the times when a fighter is at their most vulnerable. Even if the fighter is accelerating, his trajectory is quite predictable and he wont be able to take evasive maneuvers for fear of losing airspeed. The last place you'd want to be is taking off or landing within range of an AAA system. The only hope you'd have is if the system decided you weren't a threat for whatever reason.

they don't fly in a straight line when taking off, the moment its wheels have left the deck the pilot immediately changes heading and altitude, and would most likely be using ECM, chaff and flares as soon as possible to further reduce any chance of being targeted, and any AAA fire effectiveness would be dependent on the angle and heading the battleship is travelling at, as well as the speed said battleship is moving

the type of evasive maneuvroes for dealing with AAA are achieveable even at full thrust

I'm sure pilots are well trained in formation flying and can get into one quickly, I'm disputing the amount of time it takes from scramble to attack run. I can't see 1 minute as being anywhere near enough time.

again, its standard crusing speed (where the throttle is is only opened to 30-40%) is half of mach 1, in laymans terms it'l cover 1 mile (both forwards and vertically) in 10 seconds, and thats without even trying, if they're moving at combat speed (700 to 900 km/h) it'll get into attack position even quicker

in an emergency combat sortie scenario those planes would be in the air, in formation and in position to attack well within a minute. three at most if there are any delays

Of course we are giving the carrier an advantage, in having aircraft with engines running and on the catapult ready to go, and no shells loaded in the battleships guns. But even then, I can't see a scramble to defend against a battleship that close striking before the battleship has loaded a salvo and opened fire. We are also assuming that the battleships defenses aren't taking down the missiles....

The fighters scrambled may very will sink the battleship, but I seriously doubt they'd have anything to go back to.

well considering that like most contemporary military vessels aircraft carriers are designed to remain afloat even if its riddled with holes and half filled with water its going to take more than cannon fire to sink it

even if the battleship had the advantage of the carriers planes still being stored and its cannons already loaded, to cripple the carrier it would have to destroy the flight deck, the engine/reactor, the hangar (plus the aircraft inside it), and 75% of the internal hull space in one attack, without any planes taking off before then

Then why can't the battleship do the same? We've been concentrating on the shear firepower of the main guns, but they are equipped with HARPOON missiles as well.

true, but the difference is in delivery, a battleship has to either launch them vertically (to which the missile has to then reorientate itself, admittedly that does not take long but seeing as you dragged the battleships missile defence into the equation remember that the carrier has the same form of defence) or alternatively it can launch them from a specialised turret (but like with the cannons there is a significant delay with that as the missile has to be moved from its stored position to the small lift which slides the missile onto the guide rail, then swivelled and fired and even then it can only fire one missile at a time as they rarely have more than one of these turrets)

 

[evilneko]

I'm wonderin' why people are bothering themselves with launching planes.

Carriers have planes in the air 24/7.

So, from the word go to the reaction of the pilots in the air is how long the Iowa would have to aim and fire. The Iowa's destruction is assured, but whether it kills the Nimitz depends on how quickly it can deliver a volley. If it can deliver a volley before being destroyed, then mutual destruction is assured. Note the Iowa also has missiles of its own, which presumably can be fired much more rapidly than the main battery, so mutual destruction is probably assured period.

um..i thought Vs threads aren't allowed here, just sayin'

I didn't see anything like that in the rules.

 

[evilneko]

At the range we're dealing with here though, it's probably a safe bet most or all will hit.

 

[22steve5150]

This is one of the easiest battles to call ever....EVER. If the battle starts at 1 mile range the carrier has no chance go get any aircraft up (let alone time to have them properly outfitted with anti-ship weaponry) before being nailed by at least half a dozen salvos of 16" rounds, let alone the numerous 5" DP guns fitted on the battleship...which will render the carrier unable to launch and recover aircraft in probably less than 2 minutes. Now a carrier by itself is a fairly useless ship in combat as virtually all of it's offensive and defensive capability is in it's aircraft, not in any shipborne systems. Phalanx/RAM/sea sparrow will be of NO use against a battleship's guns nor will they hurt the battleship.
In reality no battleship would ever get that close to a modern carrier as the aircraft would begin attacking it hundreds of miles away but at a 1 mile range as the start even a world war 1 era battleship would make quick work of the Nimitz!

 

[22steve5150]

To point out that the carrier would always have aircraft in the air I think is a bit trivial as if it DID have aircraft up the whole time how on earth did a 900 foot long battleship close to a mile distance from the carrier before being attacked? Even if it was the case and multiple aircraft are in the air and armed with anti-ship weapons, it is extremely unlikely that they would sink or disable the battleship (remember besides it's 50,000 tons and thick armor it also has Phalanx CIWS for it's own air defense and should hit the carrier with around 18x 16" shells every minute, not to mention around 50x 5" shell hits per minute (at 1 mile range you would have to assume nearly all shells can hit the thousand foot long, 250 foot tall ship) and the battleship's own 16 harpoon anti-ship missiles and 32 tomahawk missiles, which would all be launched at the carrier in just a few minutes!
In this scenario the best result the carrier should expect is for it's aircraft to sink or disable the battleship in 15-20 minutes, unfortunately the battleship would have reduced the carrier to a floating inferno in less than 5 minutes....so those aircraft will be looking for a new place to land!

 

[direkiller]

Nimitz class carrier-
25 seconds to launch an aircraft
15 seconds for aircraft to aquire target lock
5 seconds missle travel.

Iowa class Battleship
1 minute 30 seconds Load for 16 inch gun. (guns are stored empty so have to be loaded for first shot)

in the time it takes the Battleship to shoot a Single round the Aircraft has 4 birds in the sky and 2-8 Harpoon anti-ship missles on target.

Before some one says the 5 inch guns, the Nimitz' armor is designed to shrug off rounds from Destroyers... which have 5 inch deck guns. the only weapons aboard a modernized battleship that can sink a super carrier is its 16 inch guns and its cruise missles... and considering that carriers have superior ECM, jammers, decoys, and anti-missle systems designed to counter cruise missles... the only thing it has going for it is the 16 inch guns.

you can launch planes 25 seconds apart once there good to go but the prep time on the first bird takes a bit longer(you dont keep the bombs attached to the planes in the hanger or keep the engines running,pilots sitting in the planes)

you do keep gunner at the guns though so there is going to be shells landing before the planes take off

5 in guns on the Iowa have up to a 85*ark(basically high angle shots) they can just pound the flight deck and superstructure(DD in WW2 did it a few times to heavy cruisers and Battleships)

you have a wing of Planes on the deck loaded and ready to go at a moments notice...
They are fueled, fitted, and ready to go. and Yes, munitions ARE fitted to these aircraft, and replacement munitions only take all of 5 seconds to be mounted. be fore launch the 'safty tags' are removed which complete the warhead circuit and make the weapon live ordinence.

these planes are towed into launch position, manned, then catapulted off the deck. so all these planes really need are pilots. and at a red alert it doesn't take all that long for these planes to be manned.

so regardless of the situation, in 25-30 seconds of a call, the First bird will be in the air with a second one 25 seconds after.

a Battleship from 'safe' does not store munitions in the turrets. not since a munitions explosion in no. 2 turret of the Iowa in 1989 nearly took the thing off the ship. All munitions are transported from the magazine a 2-5 minute journey. Then loaded into the gun breech (1 minute 30 seconds) before fired (between 1 and 15 minutes)


so if you want to go from green to red alert..
in 5 Minutes (generiously) you'll have 1 volley off of the Iowa.

in 5 Minutes you will have 2 wings of planes in the air (12 birds) each mounted with 2 Harpoon missles and several hundred 20mm bullets each.


and again...
the Nimitz is Designed to Shurg off 5 inch shells. All of the Nimitz, not just the sides. basing your claim off of World War 2 tactics is just flawed. the flight deck is fitted with over 2 inches of kevlar, over a layer of classified armor which is touted, again, to shrug off everything up to 5 inch ordinence.

its less about hitting vital parts and more about makeing the flight deck useless

a plane can't take a 5in shell let alone any of flighdeck crew