Poll: Superior Character: Batman or Superman

[deadish]

That's all well and good, but ultimately, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, everything that you mentioned is an over-romanticization of what Batman can do. That's his peak. It's unrealistic. It's absurd.

That's what i'm trying to tell you!!! It's not over-romanticization!!!

If we can't agree on this point, then any further discussion is pointless since we are operating with different premises.

For Superman, an example of over-romanticizing what he can do is he flies around the earth so fast he turns back time. It's absurd. It's silly. It's an over-romaticization of his abilities.

Sups gets a little romanticization all the time.

How many times have Sups beat the bad guys because all of a sudden in the heat of the moment he summons up some extra strength?

It's is inevitable in comics. If Sups can have a bit of romanticization so can bats.

My whole point was that Batman cannot be in the same weight-class as Sups. You said yourself that a straight-up fair fight, completely cutting loose and using all their abilities and reserves against the other is still considered giving too much advantage to Superman. I mean, just how much advantage and leeway do we need to give Bats before you or anyone will consider it a fair fight? How do you compensate for an opponent who moves so fast time practically stands still for him? The unfortunate truth is that adding all these handicaps for Bats just proves how far out of Sups league he is.

They are of a "different class", in the sense they fight differently but capability wise, they are about the same - again depending on the writer. Bats unlike Sups doesn't fight his strong foes head on, he analyzes and makes use of how his foe's operate to beat them. That's just how he works.

Yes, Batman has loads of things. But unlike Superman he doesn't have superhuman senses, reflexes and speed. All preparation Batman can do has the limit of beeing prepared by a human. He can adapt but can he really outsmart the speed, strength and reflexes Superman has? There are things that even the best preparation can not counter.

To the artifacts: I am pretty sure Batman has enough plans for the scenario when Superman goes rogue and they have to make him unable to fight. One might be an artifact.

Why truck? Because I don't think that Superman can ram a Kryptonite suit . But Superman approaching with full speed? I think only very few people in the DC universe can dodge that. People like the Flash!

Overall: A "realistic" fight between Superman and Batman can be handeled by few writers. Because thinking up a way Superman goes full out against Batman... I can't think of one.

We are in a world with sci-fi technology and even magic - magic which Sups has no defenses against. Anything is possible.

And Batman being Batman, has a ton of crazy crap in his cave, accumulated over the years fighting all sorts of people. I'm sure he can put something together.

Put together a Kyptonite powered power armor with Kyphonite lasers and forcefields and Sups will have quite a fight on this hands. Let me put it this way, if Luthor can make it, so can Bats and Luthor is by no means a lightweight superman villain.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

im having deja vu to the first brothers in arms game "but he can melt things with his eyes.. WITH HIS EYES!!!"

Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar for refencing that game.

Without a doubt one of the best opening cutscenes for any videogame ever.

 

[deadish]

Supersight, superspeed, superreflexes... In a scenario where Sups goes full out neither Batman nor Lux have even a little chance. It's a simple limit of the human body. No big tricks and preparations can protect him from a Superman who has no longer his "I don't kill rule".

Why do you people keep bring up "limit of the human body"? In a world of sci-fi tech and magic, it doesn't matter.

Augmented enough with the above two, they are more than a match for Superman.

 

[370999]

We are in a world with sci-fi technology and even magic - magic which Sups has no defenses against. Anything is possible.

And Batman being Batman, has a ton of crazy crap in his cave, accumulated over the years fighting all sorts of people. I'm sure he can put something together.

Put together a Kyptonite powered power armor with Kyphonite lasers and forcefields and Sups will have quite a fight on this hands. Let me put it this way, if Luthor can make it, so can Bats and Luthor is by no means a lightweight superman villain.

On the other hand, Superman never fights humans while going full out. Simply because he has mental locks preventing him from crushing anything he touches. His one principle (don't kill) and the fact that Lex has superiour intellect and is able to play in politics make Lex the perfect human villian. But what if Sups doesn't have his one principle? There is one example where Superman lets this rule fall. It doesn't end well for Luthor.

I want to see Bats fight Superman while he chills on the moon and plays western dancing with Batman with his Laser eyes. Supersight, superspeed, superreflexes... In a scenario where Sups goes full out neither Batman nor Lux have even a little chance. It's a simple limit of the human body. No big tricks and preparations can protect him from a Superman who has no longer his "I don't kill rule".

Yeah I mean how do you fight a dude who can move faster then you can think. Honestly i hate how much people inflate Batman's capabilities, It makes the character utterly boring as he suddenly aqquires the superpower to make everyone around him idiots and to read their minds.

 

[370999]

Supersight, superspeed, superreflexes... In a scenario where Sups goes full out neither Batman nor Lux have even a little chance. It's a simple limit of the human body. No big tricks and preparations can protect him from a Superman who has no longer his "I don't kill rule".

Why do you people keep bring up "limit of the human body"? In a world of sci-fi tech and magic, it doesn't matter.

Augmented enough with the above two, they are more than a match for Superman.

Because Batman's thing is he is quite a minamilitst guy. Sure he uses technology but he does so to meet the threat and even then Batman has never seemed to show the aptitude of either employing magic or technology which is super advanced. For the human limits just imagine actually lifting a gun, aiming it and then squeezing the trigger, then the projictile flies out and hitting Supes. That whole process only happens if he wants it to happen. He could have you punched while you were squeesing the trigger.

Look I could understand Batman having a chance if he launced a pre-emptive attack, enlisted the help of a couple of other big leaguers and prepared really specific weapons but if not then no.

Batman's character is not just his planning but the fact that he is still a man. And that entials human limits, he will afterall die of old age sometime. Honestly if he wanted Superman could just win by leaving the earth for 100 years and then winning by default after Batman dies at the age of 90. That's how powerful this guy is.

 

[Pyro Paul]

Saxton Hale wins.
He has a Manly Mustache automatically making him better then those two.

 

[deadish]

Because Batman's thing is he is quite a minamilitst guy. Sure he uses technology but he does so to meet the threat and even then Batman has never seemed to show the aptitude of either employing magic or technology which is super advanced. For the human limits just imagine actually lifting a gun, aiming it and then squeezing the trigger, then the projictile flies out and hitting Supes. That whole process only happens if he wants it to happen. He could have you punched while you were squeesing the trigger.

Look I could understand Batman having a chance if he launced a pre-emptive attack, enlisted the help of a couple of other big leaguers and prepared really specific weapons but if not then no.

Batman's character is not just his planning but the fact that he is still a man. And that entials human limits, he will afterall die of old age sometime. Honestly if he wanted Superman could just win by leaving the earth for 100 years and then winning by default after Batman dies at the age of 90. That's how powerful this guy is.

Wait. Wait.

The point is this, "IT DEPENDS ON THE WRITERS!!!!".

When it comes Batman's gadgets, like Superman's strength and invulnerability, the sky is the limit. The writers can boost Batman's combat prowess to the stratosphere if they wanted to, without breaking character - his character history is setup in such a way that they have the flexibility to do so.

But most of the time they don't because Batman's comics are really "detective stories", he doesn't need to be super strong, just very smart. His combat prowess only has to be good enough for him to trash groups of simple thugs. When teamed up with the Justice League which already has a combat power overload, they would be stupid to make him stronger to match up to the rest as they are already having enough trouble thinking up villains that could threaten such a group. So they left him there as one of the "brains".

In summary, if the writers really wanted Batman to kill Superman, they can easily make it so.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

That's what i'm trying to tell you!!! It's not over-romanticization!!!

If we can't agree on this point, then any further discussion is pointless since we are operating with different premises.

- - - - -

Sups gets a little romanticization all the time.

How many times have Sups beat the bad guys because all of a sudden in the heat of the moment he summons up some extra strength?

It's is inevitable in comics. If Sups can have a bit of romanticization so can bats.

Quick clarification: I'm not saying that the "over-romaticization" makes the abilities you listed null in the fight because of the unrealistic and absurd nature. I'm saying that Batman at his most absurd, unrealistic peak couldn't beat Superman.
Superman's peak is 9,000 miles above Batman's peak.

They are of a "different class", in the sense they fight differently but capability wise, they are about the same - again depending on the writer. Bats unlike Sups doesn't fight his strong foes head on, he analyzes and makes use of how his foe's operate to beat them. That's just how he works.

'Kay. He'd still lose. You can't beat someone that's too fast for you to touch, hit, shoot, stab, burn, blow up, or even threaten. Period. Bats can try his best, but the fight, no matter the circumstances, will still end in the blink of an eye. Just hoping that he'd have something up his sleeve or "put something together" is just far too much assumption and speculation considering everything we've said at this point. We might as well say Batman will win by default despite everything we've discussed. We might as well say Batman will win because he's Batman.

We are in a world with sci-fi technology and even magic - magic which Sups has no defenses against. Anything is possible.

And Batman being Batman, has a ton of crazy crap in his cave, accumulated over the years fighting all sorts of people. I'm sure he can put something together.

Put together a Kyptonite powered power armor with Kyphonite lasers and forcefields and Sups will have quite a fight on this hands. Let me put it this way, if Luthor can make it, so can Bats and Luthor is by no means a lightweight superman villain.

Superman holds back. A lot. Luthor is lucky his opponent has so much belief in the American justice system, and even still, he loses all the time. The scenario we're talking about is full out, cut loose, no-holds-barred fight from both opponents. Two men using everything they have and are capable of to kill the other with no regard to outside influence. No other heroes or villains. No other people or factors. No interfering ideals, creeds, or beliefs. No deus ex machina from a biased writer.

That's not a "no" to the kryptonite armor, by the way. I'm just saying, it wouldn't matter. Trucks flying at mach 5 aside...

 

[deadish]

snip

Well yes, it does matter. There are things that a human without any kind of superpowers can't do. Fisticuffs with Darkseid is one thing. Or fisticuffs with Superman. Or even defeating a Superman who is out there to kill you.

There is suspension of disbelief and then there is Miller-esque fanboyism of Batman.

Superman is a person fighting beeings on god level. He can take magical damage. Some technology and magical artifacts can't hold a Superman back who is not supressing a big part of his actual power.

In the world of sci-fi technology and magic. Anything is possible. "Human limits" don't mean swat.

Lex loses because he is the villain. Duh.

All in all, we are arguing about fiction here,

Wait. Wait.

The point is this, "IT DEPENDS ON THE WRITERS!!!!".

When it comes Batman's gadgets, like Superman's strength and invulnerability, the sky is the limit. The writers can boost Batman's combat prowess to the stratosphere if they wanted to, without breaking character - his character history is setup in such a way that they have the flexibility to do so.

But most of the time they don't because Batman's comics are really "detective stories", he doesn't need to be super strong, just very smart. His combat prowess only has to be good enough for him to trash groups of simple thugs. When teamed up with the Justice League which already has a combat power overload, they would be stupid to make him stronger to match up to the rest as they are already having enough trouble thinking up villains that could threaten such a group. So they left him there as one of the "brains".

In summary, if the writers really wanted Batman to kill Superman, they can easily make it so.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

In summary, if the writers really wanted Batman to kill Superman, they can easily make it so.

True. As it is now though, which is what we're discussing, he doesn't hold a candle.

 

[deadish]

In summary, if the writers really wanted Batman to kill Superman, they can easily make it so.

True. As it is now though, which is what we're discussing, he doesn't hold a candle.

"Now" can change. As the plot progresses, the writers can make so he does "hold a candle", there is nothing stopping them as it doesn't break character nor plot consistency - and hell, given the among of retcons when did American comics give a shit about plot consistency, but I digress. >.>

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

"Now" can change. As the plot progresses, the writers can make so he does "hold a candle", there is nothing stopping them as it doesn't break character nor plot consistency - and hell, given the among of retcons when did American comics give a shit about plot consistency. >.>

All in all, we are arguing about fiction here,

It's a "what if" fight. We're creating our own fiction based only on preexisting fiction.

Other writers have nothing to do with it.

 

[deadish]

"Now" can change. As the plot progresses, the writers can make so he does "hold a candle", there is nothing stopping them as it doesn't break character nor plot consistency - and hell, given the among of retcons when did American comics give a shit about plot consistency. >.>

All in all, we are arguing about fiction here,

It's a "what if" fight. We're creating our own fiction based only on preexisting fiction.

Other writers have nothing to do with it.

OK. I was too quick on the post. Should have worded it more carefully to avoid misinterpretation.

What I meant was, if Superman ever goes rogue, it's perfectly believable that a well-prepared Batman can take him out. Bats know Sups abilities inside and out, and has an armory that can be made as powerful as the plot demands.
It doesn't break character nor plot consistency for Batman to win. The writers can easily have Batman beat Superman if they want it to happen.

Whether it happens or not, depends on the writer.

 

[Vault Citizen]

Alright. When it comes to fighting I am quite sure that Superman would punch a hole through Batman's face and that would be the end of it.

The problem with that is under normal circumstances Superman wouldn't kill. Part of how the fight would go is determined by what mentality you chose to have for the characters, do you have Superman as he normally is? In which case he would restrain himself or do you say, have him brainwashed? Or turned evil so that he wouldn't hold back?


It is a hard question for me, not because I like both equally, I am a huge Batman fan. The problem for me is that while I did enjoy many superheroes growing up Batman was always my favourite, he introduced me to superheroes (in the 90's I grew up on the tv series, the animated series and all the movies) and he has always been the one I would enjoy the most. So, its harder to remain objective about them as characters.

All that aside though I think I would still say Batman because I find him to be more interesting, I prefer his look and I prefer the way that he gets things done.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

"Now" can change. As the plot progresses, the writers can make so he does "hold a candle", there is nothing stopping them as it doesn't break character nor plot consistency - and hell, given the among of retcons when did American comics give a shit about plot consistency. >.>

All in all, we are arguing about fiction here,

It's a "what if" fight. We're creating our own fiction based only on preexisting fiction.

Other writers have nothing to do with it.

OK. I was too quick on the post.

What I meant was, if Superman ever goes rogue, it's perfectly believable that a well-prepared Batman can take him out. Bats know Sups abilities inside and out, and has an armory that can be made as powerful as the plot demands.
It doesn't break character not plot consistency for Batman to win. The writers can easily have Batman beat Superman if they want it to happen.

Oh, well, yeah, of course. That's always a possibility. It's not even just about arsenal in that case since it would be an entirely plot-based fight. That's a case where other heroes, villains, characters, preexisting history, interfering ideals, creeds, beliefs, and any writer-induced deus ex machina are all potential factors in the fight. It's all very story based, that's the thing. Not really what I've been putting into consideration, know what I mean?

 

[deadish]

Oh, well, yeah, of course. That's always a possibility. It's not even just about arsenal in that case since it would be an entirely plot-based fight. That's a case where other heroes, villains, characters, preexisting history, interfering ideals, creeds, beliefs, and any writer-induced deus ex machina are all potential factors in the fight. It's all very story based, that's the thing. Not really what I've been putting into consideration, know what I mean?

If that wasn't what you were talking about, then I'm not sure what you were talking about.

I thought we were talking about the possibility of Batman beating Superman. From current lore, I argued that yes, it's possible for Bats to beat Sups without breaking existing lore. That's basically my entire argument.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

If that wasn't what you were talking about, then I'm not sure what you were talking about.

I thought we were talking about the possibility of Batman beating a Superman. From current lore, I argued that yes, it's possible for Bats to beat Sups without breaking existing lore. That's basically my entire argument.

Well, to start with, this was more in line with what I was talking about:

The scenario we're talking about is full out, cut loose, no-holds-barred fight from both opponents. Two men using everything they have and are capable of to kill the other with no regard to outside influence. No other heroes or villains. No other people or factors. No interfering ideals, creeds, or beliefs. No deus ex machina from a biased writer.

In which, I must say, I don't see any possibility. It's generally what I think of when discussing a "what if" fight, which I believe everyone else was thinking as well. We aren't considering future storylines from writers since it has no place for speculation, you know?

 

[Joseph Alexander]

If we really assume a situation where Batman have to fight Sups (a situation where he thinks that Sups is a threat

Old bats prepares for everything. Sups might not be a threat now, but it doesn't mean he never will be.

= Sups has no longer his rules) then I don't think that even a Kryptonite suite can help Bats. The last time I checked "Getting a truck thrown at supersonic speed against your head" is quite lethal for any human beeing without superhuman abilities or an adamantiom skeleton.

You have to know one thing: Sups knows Batman. He knows that going the same way as against a normal human would be stupid (aka holding back like hell and going into fisticuffs).

Well, unless Miller writes the story. In Millers stories Batman can kill Darkseid in a fisticuff fight right after kicking all the New Gods into the ass. Bats is not the same class as Superman. Never was, never will be. Not even close. All intellect and preparation reach human reflex limits which Sups can surpass by far.

As for "Getting a truck thrown at supersonic speed against your head", it would have to be a surprise attack for that to work - you can always just blow the truck up midair. [1] Batman can play at that too. Just sniper Sups in the back with a kryptonite tip arrow/bullet - I know he doesn't use guns, but it's Sups, he could make an exception.

As for human limits, who said Batman is limited to using only his biological body? Bats has never shied away from using state of the art technology - and hell he might even have a few magic based artifacts at his disposal somewhere in his bat cave. This is why if bats is given time to prep, all bets are off. He knows Superman's abilities and weaknesses very well - he is "The Detective" - and would have comes up with a strategy for just about everything Sups could throw at him.

And even if Bats get killed, he would probably have backup plans just for that scenario broadcasted to the rest of the league for them to execute.

In the end, as I mentioned, Superman vs Batman completely depends on the writer. Even you admit that to some extend. This is not a "hard science". There is really no point debating any sort of "vs" fights.

[1] Actually why bother with the truck? Just fly straight at him full speed, if Bats can't dodge it, he will be dead anyway.

"Batman can play at that too. Just sniper Sups in the back with a kryptonite tip arrow/bullet"
let me get this straight, you think you can hit a man.. with a bullet... who can move faster then said bullet and hear the gun fire even if its on the other side of the planet.

listen theres only a handful of super heroes who can legibly stop superman, the flashes, captain atom(red sun radiation or any of the myriad of kryptonites),and captain marvel are the only ones who could really do it.

if its just batman vs. superman, supes can just roast him from space.
theres a reason optic blasts are some of the most powerful attacks in comics, they're self aiming sniper rifles, add in telescopic and microscopic vision and its the ultimate weapon.
the second supes looks at bats, no more bats, just a smoking corpse.

and don't give me none of that miller bullshit about being prepared for everything bats rarely is, he has plans for everything yes but thats not the same as having it in his belt of wonders.
batmans shtick isn't that hes "prepared for everything" its that he can "deal with anything" its not that he has a way, its that he FINDS one.