Poll: The EU should become 1 nation? Discuss.

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Federalist92

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Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
I'm feeling disconnected from my own country enough as it is, thank you very much.
love avatar by the way. that used to be my favourite film when i was younger.
which country do you speak of?
I live in Britain. And while the EU has had some good policies, the fact that our country now has to follow orders from some person I've never heard of in Brussels (who, according to my father, is apparently German) just sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Also, our current Prime Minister, the appalling Gordon Brown, wasn't even voted into power.

I feel as if I've got no voice as it is. I don't need that amplified by being ruled by some shadowy council of people I know nothing about, who have never stepped foot inside Britain.
I was with you untill the part about Gordon brown.
I hate people with the attitude that "we didnt vote for HIM, so lets not listen to him"
NO.
You do not vote for the party leader. that would be unfair. You might vote for the most charasmatic person instead of the one with the good policys, or men may bvote for the sexy lady over the ugly man.
You vote for the PARTY i.e: labour. you do not vote for the Leader. the party elects its leader and can change it if they see fit. Its not gordon browns policys. its the partys policys.
So dont complain about gordon brown and how "we didnt vote for him" when you dont even vote for gordon brown, you vote for the whole labour party.
 

Eternal_24

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Aug 4, 2009
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Are you mad? That's possibly one of the worst things that could ever happen. We want to be OUT of the EU altogether. In Britain, we give 40 million pounds A DAY(!) to the EU... £40,000,000 A DAY!

Simriel said:
It would rather make sense given that it would turn europe into a superpower. I mean the U.S is basically one big country made out of little countries.
No, the US is a country made up of states.
 
Jun 8, 2009
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The question here is what powers should each level of governance have. I think, personally, that Europe should have a united foreign policy but should deal with internal matters at a national level with a minimum of pan-European intervention. I'm also in favour of devolutionary policies to allow problems on the ground to be tackled... ah heck, here's my model I drew up in my head as I went along reading this.

EU level: National representatives meet here to discuss foreign policy and issues of pan-european importance. The aim here is to have a united continental consensus. Countries voting weight is determined via population. Internal policies are not discussed here. Instead, this is where decisions on who to sanction, who to go to war with, and where development aid goes to aid growth and protect vulnerable citizens is decided.

If there is a problem with an individual member country (maybe its started to abuse its own citizens human rights) then sanctions and other preventative measures can be discussed, but must only be implemented in the case of clear violations of a well-drafted constitution designed to protect citizens and not open to abuse by countries with a large population and a vendetta. The aim here is to maintain unity and ensure the best level of protection for all European union citizens while minimising involvement in national politics.

A military budget and aid contributions are decided here and drawn according to GDP and by whether each nationality is really in a position to pay (countries struggling with poverty themselves should be exempt from contributing military and aid, or at least heavily discounted.) The constitution can be changed by the usual means, that is, by two thirds of parliament voting strength going in favour of the amendment. (that is, to my knowledge, the arrangement over in America?)

National level: Countries keep traditional borders, but take on more of an internal administrative role, their leaders only leaving to cast their countries votes on different issues and to debate for or against different EU-level issues. (a stance which could be decided on a governmental or referendum level) Taxes and national laws are administered without outside interference and budgets drawn up for different departments and regions. National governments are also in charge of living up to their required military investment, and are expected (though not required) to maintain a set military investment which is a proportion of GDP. (again agreed at a national level) Poorer developing countries should not be expected to spend nearly as high a proportion of GDP on the military as they need the extra money to lift themselves out of poverty and start functioning as first world states.

The only money that the national government does not have a complete authority over is aid money. If the money is ear-marked for developing, say, the health service, the national government is not allowed to spend the money on roads or the economy.

The plan here is to have everyone agree to their contributions on an equal and fair level, and have everyone outwardly work as a united unit while still maintaining their individual governments who can look after their citizens concerns without worrying about other European countries interference in their internal affairs besides matters which could affect everyone.

Democracy and a basic level of human rights is mandatory. That's not negotiable. For information on what would happen if an individual country goes "rogue" and starts abusing its citizenry, see EU level.

Devolutionary level: Takes things down to the state, provincial or in the case of the UK, kingdom or principality level. Administrates macro-economic and social matters. Local government (explained below) recieve their share of the budget in accordance to what the devolutionary government thinks should be done. (They are in turn responsible for the people who voted them into office.) Devolutionary governments in turn recieve their budgets from the national governments, but are free to spend it as they wish after military, aid and diplomatic costs have been factored in to the equation.

Local level: Taking things down to each constituency in whatever form that may be, this is totally at the discretion of the devolutionary governments. (if devolutionary governments are present, otherwise the national government decides this.) Gives feedback to conditions in the constituency and is awarded a budget to be used in line with higher level policy.

All national levels are democratically elected. The EU should consist of the nominated leaders of each country.

The most controversial part of what I said is probably the bit about the military. Lets face it, its necessary to ensure that everyone pulls their weight on this issue if we're to have a united foreign policy. It isn't fair on other members of the EU that one country is carrying a 30% GDP cost on its military machine while another is spending 5% and is getting richer and richer while its more defensively (or worryingly aggressive) minded cousin is being crushed under taxes. Equally, the foolish nation squandering away its money on excessive military might needs to have its excesses moderated, as economic development affects everyone across the board. Setting an agreed level of GDP military spending prevents both extremes, while giving discounts to developing European countries prevents them from being forced into poverty to keep up with more economically developed nations.

As to what justifies having a military in the first place... whatever is required to ensure that countries which could potentially be considered "hostile" keep away from European borders I suppose. It could also be adopted for interventionist measures in line with the UN of course, though reaching consensus there is likely to be rather more difficult.

EDIT: Ah hell, I just realised that this has turned into a wall of text of doom. As for whether this is a good idea, it depends on whether Europeans can actually get on and work together enough to stop things from degenerating into petty factionalism. History gives us some seriously negative vibes in that direction... I'm going to shut up now.
 

Epifols

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Grand_Pamplemousse said:
Also, first post :D
Haha, your first post is well into the second page ;)

I voted no, since the world has already been becoming more and more connected with itself since technology really started getting global. Which just means our problems will be global as well. And frankly aligning a ton of nations together and forcing others into alliances together sounds a lot like the makings of WWI.

Griffolion said:
Personally, i think the entire world should become one nation. Pooling the worlds greatest talent in every craft and field into one united group will see a much better advance in technology and philosophy.
Bioshock, anyone?
 

Mantonio

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Apr 15, 2009
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Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
I'm feeling disconnected from my own country enough as it is, thank you very much.
love avatar by the way. that used to be my favourite film when i was younger.
which country do you speak of?
I live in Britain. And while the EU has had some good policies, the fact that our country now has to follow orders from some person I've never heard of in Brussels (who, according to my father, is apparently German) just sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Also, our current Prime Minister, the appalling Gordon Brown, wasn't even voted into power.

I feel as if I've got no voice as it is. I don't need that amplified by being ruled by some shadowy council of people I know nothing about, who have never stepped foot inside Britain.
I was with you untill the part about Gordon brown.
I hate people with the attitude that "we didnt vote for HIM, so lets not listen to him"
NO.
You do not vote for the party leader. that would be unfair. You might vote for the most charasmatic person instead of the one with the good policys, or men may bvote for the sexy lady over the ugly man.
You vote for the PARTY i.e: labour. you do not vote for the Leader. the party elects its leader and can change it if they see fit. Its not gordon browns policys. its the partys policys.
So dont complain about gordon brown and how "we didnt vote for him" when you dont even vote for gordon brown, you vote for the whole labour party.
You're missing the point. We didn't vote for his party at all. When Tony Blair's reign ended we expected a general election (as is proper) but no. We didn't get a CHANCE to vote. Tony Blair just passed on power straight to Gordon Brown.
 

Doug

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Apr 23, 2008
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Federalist92 said:
I think the EU should slowly transform into one nation. We are in no hurry to scare people by rushing it, however when we eventually are one country we will have one stronger military, one stronger economy, and one stronger presence. All the major wars have started in europe, so wwhy why not try to stop this by talking away the countrys that fight and making one instead. seems a good idea to me.
Whilst I agree with the idea of a united Europe in principle, the current system is autoricatic, elitist, and corrupt. The EU council has no one looking into their expenses claims, they have no freedom of information act to enforce them to tell us what we want to know, and finally they try and force through bills to grant them more power, telling national governments they have to agree, without the people getting a say on the political constitution of the whole system.

Basically, NO to Europe as it stands now, maybe Yes to some future version of the idea.
 

Agema

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No.

When the UK votes, people vote for local representatives, who are handed a democratic mandate until the next general election. The MPs then decide who the Prime Minister is. Even if the PM resigns, all those MPs still have their mandate, and can install anyone they choose.
 
Jun 8, 2009
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Making a distinctly shorter point than last time... I think a summary of my views is that we should have a united foreign policy while leaving internal affairs and law-making to national governments. Outwardly unified, inwardly independent and staying that way. I'm also all for aid going to developing countries within the EU. You can't really expect to have unity while you have inequality and the resentment that brings.

I also don't think this should be done hastily. This has to be done over a process of decades, maybe even a century. Definitely not years.
 

Mantonio

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zee666 said:
Yes, only Germany wouldn't be in it cuz they're too bad ass to join.
You're kidding right? Germany is the polar opposite of badass. Just look at the censored German versions of video games.
 

Federalist92

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Jul 28, 2009
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Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
I'm feeling disconnected from my own country enough as it is, thank you very much.
love avatar by the way. that used to be my favourite film when i was younger.
which country do you speak of?
I live in Britain. And while the EU has had some good policies, the fact that our country now has to follow orders from some person I've never heard of in Brussels (who, according to my father, is apparently German) just sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Also, our current Prime Minister, the appalling Gordon Brown, wasn't even voted into power.

I feel as if I've got no voice as it is. I don't need that amplified by being ruled by some shadowy council of people I know nothing about, who have never stepped foot inside Britain.
I was with you untill the part about Gordon brown.
I hate people with the attitude that "we didnt vote for HIM, so lets not listen to him"
NO.
You do not vote for the party leader. that would be unfair. You might vote for the most charasmatic person instead of the one with the good policys, or men may bvote for the sexy lady over the ugly man.
You vote for the PARTY i.e: labour. you do not vote for the Leader. the party elects its leader and can change it if they see fit. Its not gordon browns policys. its the partys policys.
So dont complain about gordon brown and how "we didnt vote for him" when you dont even vote for gordon brown, you vote for the whole labour party.
You're missing the point. We didn't vote for his party at all. When Tony Blair's reign ended we expected a general election (as is proper) but no. We didn't get a CHANCE to vote. Tony Blair just passed on power straight to Gordon Brown.
its been so long since the last general election i've lost track of the years, but if your right, isnt that against the law?
 

Mantonio

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Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
I'm feeling disconnected from my own country enough as it is, thank you very much.
its been so long since the last general election I've lost track of the years, but if your right, isn't that against the law?
I think there was some loophole that he used to get away with it. Regardless, not one person in Britain is happy with Brown. He's like Bush, but without the hilarious butchering of language.
zee666 said:
Mantonio said:
zee666 said:
Yes, only Germany wouldn't be in it cuz they're too bad ass to join.
You're kidding right? Germany is the polar opposite of badass. Just look at the censored German versions of video games.
But they have sausages and beer!
So does Britain. Your point?
 

annoyinglizardvoice

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Apr 29, 2009
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I think it would be too big and clumbersome, and contain too many different legal systems/governments to make the transision worth while
 

Smudge91

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Jul 30, 2009
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meh its basically the EU have basically been behind the scenes for ooo quite a while now and they have a massive impact on our lives. But i'm biased i want to work for them.
Although intergrating 3 different types of economies is going to be difficult but with euros travelling would be a lot easier weee
 

Spitfire175

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Jul 1, 2009
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Federalist92 said:
I think the EU should slowly transform into one nation. We are in no hurry to scare people by rushing it, however when we eventually are one country we will have one stronger military, one stronger economy, and one stronger presence. All the major wars have started in europe, so wwhy why not try to stop this by talking away the countrys that fight and making one instead. seems a good idea to me.
Europeans don't have to kill each other anymore. Now we've got better things to do: The german will rather sell cars to the brits than try to bomb them back to the stone age. Europe is not a barrel of gunpowder anymore. The middle east is.

The European union is a very useful thing, whithout it many countries would be in a much much deeper pool of piss than they are now. The European economy works well inside Europe with the EU. I believe we will have to increase co-operation in defense an military and especially in anti-terrorist forces.

But there will not be a single country called "Europe" for a veery long time. Possibly never. At the moment there are so many cultures, languages and the economical differences are so vast (western Germany>Bulgaria) that uniting everything to become a 700 million people superpower would be insane. It just simply wouldn't work.

To all those who oppose the EU: you may not see it every day as a concrete phenomenon in front of you, but the EU HAS MADE YOUR LIVES A LOT EASIER! Also you have more money and a much better standard of living thanks to the EU. If you have a computer, you would have paid 100% more for it if it wasn't for the EU. Of all the countries that are a part of the EU, only Germany could have a chance of making the ends meet on her own. Barely. European co-operation is necessary in order for us to maintain a stable position in the world.

Sure the politicians are a bunch of backstabbing bureaucrates who don't seem to give a damn about the people. But the guys really running the show are the bankers in Frankfurt, and they care about the economy. And the economy is what says how well the people are doing. All the Lizbon treaties & other wishy washy red tape are there to keep the economy running. Quit bitching and read the basics of economic growth.
 
Jun 8, 2009
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Spitfire175 said:
Sure the politicians are a bunch of backstabbing bureaucrates who don't seem to give a damn about the people. But the guys really running the show are the bankers in Frankfurt, and they care about the economy. And the economy is what says how well the people are doing. All the Lizbon treaties & other wishy washy red tape are there to keep the economy running. Quit bitching and read the basics of economic growth.
I agree with this and everything in your post up to your last point on the economy. The economy is how well people are doing on average. The number of people under the poverty line and the gap between rich and poor are very important factors. A country can be doing well economically while many of its citizens remain poor. However, I acknowledge your point about the EU doing much to raise standards, and would therefore like to add that the EU has done much to raise many out of poverty, especially in Eastern Europe. The EU has benifitted many, we would be most rash to throw it away.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
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Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
Federalist92 said:
Mantonio said:
I'm feeling disconnected from my own country enough as it is, thank you very much.
its been so long since the last general election I've lost track of the years, but if your right, isn't that against the law?
I think there was some loophole that he used to get away with it. Regardless, not one person in Britain is happy with Brown. He's like Bush, but without the hilarious butchering of language.
No loophole, trickery, or anything.

In the UK, as a voter you are electing an individual MP, and they have a democratic mandate to represent their constituents in parliament until the next general election however they see fit. And by law that mandate strictly goes to the MP personally: not their party, their party's leader, or anything else.

The Prime Minister gets his job because the monarch appoints whoever has the support of the most MPs. Thus when a PM resigns, dies or is ousted, all that needs to happen is a majority of MPs decide who the new PM is. They do so carrying the democratic mandates they still have from being elected, they don't need to ask public permission.

That's why you don't need a general election for a new PM.