Yes, but that isn't how I would feel in the period before being hooked up to this machine. I would know I'm giving up my life to live in an illusion. That alone is a choice I could not make of my own free will.Arakasi said:
Poll: The Experience Machine.
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The machine would presumably ensure you forgot that, if it would provide you unhappiness.BathorysGraveland2 said:
Well say that the instant that you say 'Yes' you are knocked unconsious until you are plugged in, at which point you forget you ever said yes anyway. So there is no discomfort whatsoever in the transaction.BathorysGraveland2 said:
Free will is an illusion.BathorysGraveland2 said:
Yes, yes. But if I was told all this and was asked to make a decision, the first thing that would enter my mind is exactly what I have spoken of. Illusion and deceit. Which is why I would say no, so the machine would never get the chance to make all these impacts in the first place.Arakasi said:
But if it is truely the illusion and deceit that matters I have to ask this question again:BathorysGraveland2 said:
Hypothetical:
This current world isn't real, there is a world beyond this one, this is just a simulation like The Matrix. Outside this simulation lies a much worse life, you will die young, it will be painful, dirty and lonely.
Would you want to know that? Would you choose to leave the current life you have? Would it invalidate all you've worked for?
Am I the only one that thinks having a machine that can basically mess with everything you know pretty risky?
What if someone messes with it?
What if someone messes with it?
I guess I would remain in the simulation, because such a world you speak of sounds like an irredeemable nightmare. The difference is that the world we live in right now is anything but that.Arakasi said:
In comparison to the pleasures you could recieve, I'm sure this would seem like an irredeemable nightmare too. But there's no real way to prove that until we build an experience machine.BathorysGraveland2 said:
Edit: But wait, doesn't that show that you don't really care if it's real or not? So long as it isn't incredibly painful? Why not make an exception for incredible happiness also?
That may be so, but this "matrix world" you spoke of lacks one thing our world has: something worth living for. Such a hellish world, why would anyone even want to hang on? Which is why I would remain in the simulation in that scenario, but would choose our real world in the other.Arakasi said:
Well, things such as excitement and thrills, the feeling of satisfaction, helping others, etc. I like happiness, and the feeling it brings, but I'd prefer it to be real than simulated. That's my personality and character speaking. I would experience certain things with this machine if it wasn't a permanent, no-turning-back choice.Arakasi said:
One such as myself would incude feelings such as satisfaction, helping others (maybe), excitment and thrills under the category of 'things that lead to happiness'. So really the machine would account for that too.BathorysGraveland2 said:
But your choices do not match. If it truely matters whether it is real or not you should pick the real world in the dystopia scenario.
My choices do not match because they are different realities. The dystopia scenario is a hellish world not unlike a post-apocalyptic wasteland in which it would be very difficult, perhaps impossible to experience happiness at all. The only thing you'd have to live for is to survive another day in horrible conditions. I think most would choose a happy illusion from that reality.
Where as in our current world, it is very easy to obtain happiness and pleasure, and passion. There is much to live for, and live is, for most of us, good. So less would choose an illusion over this reality.
You see what I mean?
Where as in our current world, it is very easy to obtain happiness and pleasure, and passion. There is much to live for, and live is, for most of us, good. So less would choose an illusion over this reality.
You see what I mean?
*scratches head*
I see a different angle from which this hypothetical falls flat...
...basically, if you wouldn't know the difference, then it doesn't even matter what I'd choose now, so the choice itself carries no meaning at all. I'm not a fan of solipsism, but if we accept the assumption that "your mind makes it real" and that there's no way to be sure there's really the reality we perceive outside our minds, we have to treat any potential simulated reality that's rendered completely acceptable and "real" by our minds as equal to the one our minds are rendering and experiencing as we speak.
And at this point it becomes a meaningless question, since the "current" reality suddenly stopped holding a unique position in opposition to all other potential ones.
Actually, I think this scenario isn't as close to Batman as it is to Vanilla Sky. Only that in that case it also involved some kind of suspended animation/life extension shtick. And it's ultimately the subconscious that messes it all up; because parts of our minds we're not aware of will interfere, for example, with our "wants", as was mentioned, what we want as opposed to what we think we want.
I see a different angle from which this hypothetical falls flat...
...basically, if you wouldn't know the difference, then it doesn't even matter what I'd choose now, so the choice itself carries no meaning at all. I'm not a fan of solipsism, but if we accept the assumption that "your mind makes it real" and that there's no way to be sure there's really the reality we perceive outside our minds, we have to treat any potential simulated reality that's rendered completely acceptable and "real" by our minds as equal to the one our minds are rendering and experiencing as we speak.
And at this point it becomes a meaningless question, since the "current" reality suddenly stopped holding a unique position in opposition to all other potential ones.
I think we'd be more likely to go insane, since the hypothetical assumes that there's no way we'd even know we are in some such thing. Basically, our mind would be subjected to conflicting information on a subconscious level, that there's something seriously not right about the world, and that it's a perfectly fine real world. Since that'd not even enter our conscious processes, we couldn't really make a conscious, rational decision to "break out", either.madwarper said:
Actually, I think this scenario isn't as close to Batman as it is to Vanilla Sky. Only that in that case it also involved some kind of suspended animation/life extension shtick. And it's ultimately the subconscious that messes it all up; because parts of our minds we're not aware of will interfere, for example, with our "wants", as was mentioned, what we want as opposed to what we think we want.
I see what you mean, but in comparison to the pleasures able to be achieved from the hypothetical machine, this life contains barely any pleasure. Count also that it has no pain, no premature death, no suffering for anyone (unless you enjoy those things), what more could you ask for?
Why is reality such a deal-breaker?
Why is reality such a deal-breaker?
I partially agree.Vegosiux said:
The hypothetical doesn't really fall flat, as that is just one way to use logic to accept that you may as well go for it and plug in. The choice carries meaning insofar as you get the maximum possible happiness, and isn't that what you want? That's the question.
I do agree though that this reality doesn't hold any special meaning over the hypothetical one, I don't nessecarily come about it via solipsism though.
Well, for example, this weekend we had a shift at work that was chaotic and hectic like it's DEFCON 1. And after we sailed through it without much problems, we were all like "Damn, we're good", and slapping each other on the shoulders. Exhausted and drained, but feeling good about a job well done. It was a nice feeling.Arakasi said:
I think "happiness" is something more complex than merely "absence of stress, pain and discomfort". I can't explain it completely, I mean there are some specific things that would make me happier, yes, but once those needs are taken care of, something new will pop up to bug me. I don't necessarily believe life only has any meaning if it's a constant uphill battle, but leisurely strolling around all the time does get kind of boring after a while.
Or, I'll let Sebastian Cabot say his piece as well...
The Twilight Zone is awesome.Vegosiux said:
Anyhow, the beauty of a hypothetical machine is that it could account for that, to allow for the maximum happiness, if some pain (effort, what-have-you) were nessecary it could do that. There certainly is something rewarding about working towards a goal and achieving it, even if it is hard, but the machine would take that into account if it were the best way to give you the most happiness.