Poll: The Fat Person And The Trolley (A Moral Question)

[CM156_v1legacy]

No. Firstly, because from my understanding of the law, I could get in legal trouble for doing that. I'm not going to jail or dealing with legal trouble for this.

Secondly, if I don't push him, I am in no way responsible for the 5 peoples deaths. I don't owe them any standard of care. You could argue I am responsible by proxy, but so is the fat person then. But if I push him, I am responsible for HIS death. So no, I would not

 

[Baby Tea]

Given how i would be arrested for causing the death of someone else, no.

If it was repercussion-free i still wouldn't do it because i dont want to have someone elses life on my consciousness.

... so you'd rather have 5 lives on your conscience?

That's not fair.
Throwing one person in front of a trolley is DIRECTLY killing them.
Not throwing someone in front of a trolley, which causes 5 other people to die, isn't directly killing anyone.

Not only that, but who are you to make that sacrifice for someone?
Why do you have the authority to commit that man to stop the trolley at the cost of his life?

Simple answer (And the correct one): You don't.
What if YOU were that fat man? Would you want someone making that choice for you? Regardless of whether you would choose to yourself or not, I'm sure no one here would want that choice made for them.

So you either murder someone to save 5, or you aren't a murderer and 5 people die.
That happens every day. You haven't killed anyone, and how many thousands died today because of starvation or preventable disease? And before you say "I can't help that", how many sponsor children do you have? How much have you given recently to third world charities to fight these diseases? How many homeless people have you walked past?

The trolley question may be far more immediate, but the final outcome is a complete parallel.

OT: I'd certainly sooner put myself in harm's way then volunteer someone else by murdering them. So, no. I wouldn't push him at all. That's not my decision to make.

 

[PatSilverFox]

This was taken from Discover magazine or whatever as it was published very recently this month, but it is common, so whatever. *shrugs*
No I wouldn't push him, because I'm lazy.

 

[DEAD34345]

Given how i would be arrested for causing the death of someone else, no.

If it was repercussion-free i still wouldn't do it because i dont want to have someone elses life on my consciousness.

... so you'd rather have 5 lives on your conscience?

Yes, I'd do it, without hesitation. I'd probably feel pretty bad about it afterwards, but when it's a choice between saving 5 people or saving one the answer is obvious.

Ah but if i did push him i would be the one who made a morally reprehensible action. I would be the one who made that person die.

If i didn't i would just be an observer who failed to take action.

Might seem cowardly but my brain would forever haunt me if i killed an innocent person.

Personally, I'd say it's far more morally reprehensible to willingly cause the death of 5 innocent people through inaction, than it is to kill one and save 5. When you're making the choice to let people die, what difference does it make whether that choice is a physical action or not?

 

[PatSilverFox]

Given how i would be arrested for causing the death of someone else, no.

If it was repercussion-free i still wouldn't do it because i dont want to have someone elses life on my consciousness.

... so you'd rather have 5 lives on your conscience?

That's not fair.

snip snip snip snip

So what?

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Given how i would be arrested for causing the death of someone else, no.

If it was repercussion-free i still wouldn't do it because i dont want to have someone elses life on my consciousness.

... so you'd rather have 5 lives on your conscience?

Yes, I'd do it, without hesitation. I'd probably feel pretty bad about it afterwards, but when it's a choice between saving 5 people or saving one the answer is obvious.

Ah but if i did push him i would be the one who made a morally reprehensible action. I would be the one who made that person die.

If i didn't i would just be an observer who failed to take action.

Might seem cowardly but my brain would forever haunt me if i killed an innocent person.

Personally, I'd say it's far more morally reprehensible to willingly cause the death of 5 innocent people through inaction, than it is to kill one and save 5. When you're making the choice to let people die, what difference does it make whether that choice is a physical action or not?

The law, for one, dear reader. You don't owe the people on the trolly any standard of care. However, I do think you owe the fat person the standard of care not to kill him. It's not your choice to make. It is his.

 

[Rylot]

Ah Judith Jarivs Thompson's modification Philippa Foot's utilitarian ethics problem...

*Inconspicuously pushes $5 Philosophy book from discount bin at Barnes & Noble under some pillows*

 

[Dogstile]

Yes... because it would be HILARIOUS.

I mean, I find fat people falling over funny anyway, so pushing one in front of a trolley so I can hide behind "i was doing a good deed" while pissing myself laughing?

I'm down for that.

Edit:

Wait, he's big enough to stop a trolley? How the hell am I pushing him?

 

[Hedonist]

No.
If the people in the trolley die, you are not to blame.
If you push the man in front of the trolley, his blood is on your hands. You have no right to kill the fat guy, but you do have have right to not do anything.

 

[Faux Furry]

Moral quandaries like this make me think of the first episode of Yuyu Hakusho. In that episode, Urameshi Yusuke gives his life to push a small child out of the path of a speeding car only to learn from the 'Grim Reaper' that, had he not leaped into traffic the way that he did, the boy would have noticed the car then scrambled to safety while the driver would have swerved on his own, completely missing the boy rather than leaving him with the cuts,bumps and bruises that Yusuke's 'rescue' inflicted upon him.

Since this is hypothetical, can this altruistic bystander whose shoes this thought experiment's participants are being placed in be Spider-Man/Girl incognito? That would help with moving this person dense enough to stop a trolley in its tracks out of its path.
Using web-fluid to slow the trolley down would give away Spidey's secret identity so that would be something else to consider.

Asking if the participant would drive her/his car into the path of the trolley, possibly killing the driver upon impact but saving the lives of those in the trolley sounds like a more workable dilemma.

 

[gigastrike]

There's a difference between killing someone and letting people die. I'd prefer to just let them die than kill.

 

[CorvusFerreum]

Tricky question. Can I wait until the trolley felt of the cliff and then push the fat guy after it?

In all seriousnes: I honestly can't tell. But I tend somehow more to push him. But it doesn't feel comfortable to be the person weighting one live against that of many if it isn't mine.

 

[DEAD34345]

Given how i would be arrested for causing the death of someone else, no.

If it was repercussion-free i still wouldn't do it because i dont want to have someone elses life on my consciousness.

... so you'd rather have 5 lives on your conscience?

That's not fair.
Throwing one person in front of a trolley is DIRECTLY killing them.
Not throwing someone in front of a trolley, which causes 5 other people to die, isn't directly killing anyone.

Not only that, but who are you to make that sacrifice for someone?
Why do you have the authority to commit that man to stop the trolley at the cost of his life?

Simple answer (And the correct one): You don't.
What if YOU were that fat man? Would you want someone making that choice for you? Regardless of whether you would choose to yourself or not, I'm sure no one here would want that choice made for them.

So you either murder someone to save 5, or you aren't a murderer and 5 people die.
That happens every day. You haven't killed anyone, and how many thousands died today because of starvation or preventable disease? And before you say "I can't help that", how many sponsor children do you have? How much have you given recently to third world charities to fight these diseases? How many homeless people have you walked past?

The trolley question may be far more immediate, but the final outcome is a complete parallel.

OT: I'd certainly sooner put myself in harm's way then volunteer someone else by murdering them. So, no. I wouldn't push him at all. That's not my decision to make.

I see things very differently to you. I'd say it makes no difference whether you murder someone "directly" or through inaction, so long as you willingly make the choice. If a man was hanging off a cliff, and someone chose not to help him back up (assuming they could do so easily and without personal risk), then in my opinion they are just as much of a murderer as someone who shoots another man.

In this situation it is a choice between allowing 1 death to happen, or allowing 5. It makes no difference if one is "direct" and one involves "inaction", at the end of the day it is within your power to choose either one, so why not choose the one that minimizes the death of innocent people?

The law, for one, dear reader. You don't owe the people on the trolly any standard of care. However, I do think you owe the fat person the standard of care not to kill him. It's not your choice to make. It is his.

I'm not talking about what is legal, I'm talking about what is right. They are not always the same thing.

 

[Hedonist]

Given how i would be arrested for causing the death of someone else, no.

If it was repercussion-free i still wouldn't do it because i dont want to have someone elses life on my consciousness.

... so you'd rather have 5 lives on your conscience?

Yes, I'd do it, without hesitation. I'd probably feel pretty bad about it afterwards, but when it's a choice between saving 5 people or saving one the answer is obvious.

Ah but if i did push him i would be the one who made a morally reprehensible action. I would be the one who made that person die.

If i didn't i would just be an observer who failed to take action.

Might seem cowardly but my brain would forever haunt me if i killed an innocent person.

Personally, I'd say it's far more morally reprehensible to willingly cause the death of 5 innocent people through inaction, than it is to kill one and save 5. When you're making the choice to let people die, what difference does it make whether that choice is a physical action or not?

Well, then why aren't you off saving people right now?
People are dying all over the world and you are sitting on your ass discussing ethics over the internet. If inaction is so morally reprehensible you should be out helping people.

 

[Dags90]

If he's bulky enough to stop a trolley with five people in it, how the hell am I going to push him? IF I can roll push him, I will. I'll be saving 5 lives, why would I not?

If he's fat enough to stop a trolley, he's probably not long for this world anyway. As a moral decision I would do it, but real world limitations -like the law and lack of foreknowledge- would keep me from doing it IRL.

 

[Semitendon]

You do realize this question is incredibly stupid, right? In real life, you would have no way of knowing whether or not shoving the fat guy in the way will have any effect other than causing yet another death. Furthermore, you also do not know whether or not the trolley could possibly be stopped in another way. It is therefore most advisable to not do anything, and to help any survivors after the crash. There, the most "moral" option.

This is what I was thinking when I read it.

Honestly, I would probably not be able to react to the situation in enough time to push the guy anyway. I am standing there, and I see the trolley coming, I think to myself, " oh shit, somebody needs to help those people". But I am just standing there, and while I might look around for something to use, I would never look at a fat person and think "yeah, that could work". By the time I have thought of using the fat guy, the trolley would almost certainly have gone past me.

 

[drbarno]

Well, seeing as the fat guy is right next to me and the trolley has already rushed past me towards the cliff, my decision on whether or not to push the fat man is entirely irrelevant as my chance to stop it had already past as I cannot push the man in front of the trolley.

If I saw it from a distance though, the result comes down to, Are the people inside part of my MonkeySphere? [http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html]
If not screw them.

 

[Kafka Torkarev]

FUCK IT LET THE FAT MAN DIE AND THE PEOPLE IN THE TROLLY TOO. I'ED WAIT FOR THE TROLLY TO GO OFF THE PUSH THE FAT MAN AFTER. I no longer hold any remorse for human life.

 

[poppabaggins]

I get to kill a fat guy without legal repercussions? Sweet!