Poll: The Joker: How Good of a Villain is He?
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It was done in the past. "Elseworlds" but still.Arqus_Zed said:
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Could any other hero take down the clown? Realistically? Yes. In theory? No. Why? In "World's Finest" Joker stole a kryptonite statue specifically to target Superman to get money from Luthor. Quite a few of his traps would give Flash some issues. Knowing Joker, he would have figured some way to deal with Lantern before challenging him...
... Here's the thing. Batman is a guy who, if you don't kill him during your first encounter, he'll use what he learned from said encounter to beat you the next time. Joker, however, is different. He learns about his targets ahead of time and figures out the best way to deal with them should they be a problem in his plans. The two work in opposite ways, but yield similar results (except against each other).
That said, aside from the money for Superman deal, Joker has no desire to deal with anyone else. He views Batman as his enemy and friend (at times). Could he take down other heroes with his unorthodox methods? Most definitely. Does he want to? No. He's obsessed with the Bat. So is Riddler, Two-Face, etc. That's why Batman villains stick to that (mostly). Batman is their enemy and everyone else is irrelevant.
... Here's the thing. Batman is a guy who, if you don't kill him during your first encounter, he'll use what he learned from said encounter to beat you the next time. Joker, however, is different. He learns about his targets ahead of time and figures out the best way to deal with them should they be a problem in his plans. The two work in opposite ways, but yield similar results (except against each other).
That said, aside from the money for Superman deal, Joker has no desire to deal with anyone else. He views Batman as his enemy and friend (at times). Could he take down other heroes with his unorthodox methods? Most definitely. Does he want to? No. He's obsessed with the Bat. So is Riddler, Two-Face, etc. That's why Batman villains stick to that (mostly). Batman is their enemy and everyone else is irrelevant.
Agreed, if it wasn't that the rest of the Justice League would disapprove, he'd grab the Joker by the neck and take him so deep and so quickly into the ocean, that his head would explode from the pressure before he had a chance to drown.summerof2010 said:
All you have to do to beat the Joker is be willing to shoot, punch, or otherwise injure him past the point of no return. Superman, for instance, could end him in a single blow.
The problem is all that annoying "nonlethal" stuff which, regardless of the reasoning behind it, has endangered and destroyed so many lives that there are logical grounds for declaring Batman an accomplice to genocide. Give peace a chance, sure - but be ready to shoot peace in the face if it doesn't work.
The problem is all that annoying "nonlethal" stuff which, regardless of the reasoning behind it, has endangered and destroyed so many lives that there are logical grounds for declaring Batman an accomplice to genocide. Give peace a chance, sure - but be ready to shoot peace in the face if it doesn't work.
Very utilitarian of you, but there's a higher code of ethics at work here about protecting individual rights that doesn't allow those heroes to kill their villains. It's summed up in the whole "don't stoop to their level" mantra, and it's lampshaded in that alternate universe episode of JL where Lex is a hero fighting the "Justice Lords."omicron1 said:
...Given, the utilitarian aspect of any rational ethical outlook would override that notion in the face of the mass death and destruction that regularly results from these villains' continued and elaborate prison escapes and nefarious plots, but the ethic is more of a rationalization for a writer's convenience anyway. If the heroes just killed all the evil doers, there would be no one for them to fight. And originally I believe that sort of preachy, sunshiny moralizing was a result of the "comics are for kids" mentality of super hero early days. The genre has "grown up" since then, but the ethic stays, partly for continuity, partly for nostalgia. But mostly because it's convenient.
...what do you mean you already knew all that and didn't need me to explain it? Don't give me that face. I have other things to do, honest. I could... go look at porn. And other stuff. I just thought someone might not have thought about it... [small]is all...[/small]
I forget what it was called, but I recently read a short comic retreading his origin story. In it he drops out of school and goes to a super high tech research lab. During his interview he looks over at what they're working on and figures out the rest of their formula in like 10 seconds. But I read about "super cognition" on the billboard thing for the Superman ride at Six Flags here, I think. Anyway, there are many different interpretations of the character. Some of them probably are really thick.Kitsuna10060 said:
I agree, but Supes is just as bad in that department. Except he doesn't even have a plausible explanation for his magic. He just has loads of powers that get revealed in various ass-pulls. At least Batman usually makes the hand wave "I did some research and shit and..." etc. I like the way Bats does it better though. Batman's super intelligence and technology are more like a Green Lantern Ring, where Superman is full on Deus Ex Machina all the time.SirBryghtside said:
Robert Kirkman kills everything and everyone once and for all. Heck, only reason you say this is because it seems as if you don't understand how comics work. Characters can get killed of forever in one continuity but not in others, and some heroes die in all continuities(Ex: Original Blue Beetle and the second Robin).JesterRaiin said:
Edit: OT: Yes, every SUPERhero could beat him, and Commissioner Gordon could too, because he is a boss.
>.> could always multi task that porn in, I'm sure rule 34 has hit the DC universe pretty hard by now >.> not that I would know anything about it *looks up and to the right*summerof2010 said:
this is pretty much WHY i hate Superman, not even a half assed explanation other then 'cause i can'
I am just going to continue disregarding any batman that isn't from nolan, because superman can fly and is bullet proof.
Or super man. Because its hard to kill a flying bullet proof blue thing with knives and bad moral values.Denariax said:
Consider this episode of Justice League, the Joker manages to incapacitates the entire Justice League besides Batman and for a brief moment turns millions of people crazy.
Batman still manages to defeat the Joker though, through his intellect and perseverance him despite having no control of his senses.
From the very start the Joker has been a master criminal, chameleon with disguises, brilliant sceintist and death defier.[footnote]One of my favorite Golden Age stories is Joker Walks the Last Mile where he turns himself into the police and confesses to a phonebooks worth of crimes before being executed. He actually comes up with a formula that resurrects the dead, and because he's already been executed is allowed to walk the streets having served his punishment![/footnote]
It's silly to claim that the Joker isn't a credible threat to other superheroes just because he's a homicidal clown.
That's like claiming Lex Luthor is merely a bald billionaire and won't stand a chance to Batman.
Batman still manages to defeat the Joker though, through his intellect and perseverance him despite having no control of his senses.
From the very start the Joker has been a master criminal, chameleon with disguises, brilliant sceintist and death defier.[footnote]One of my favorite Golden Age stories is Joker Walks the Last Mile where he turns himself into the police and confesses to a phonebooks worth of crimes before being executed. He actually comes up with a formula that resurrects the dead, and because he's already been executed is allowed to walk the streets having served his punishment![/footnote]
It's silly to claim that the Joker isn't a credible threat to other superheroes just because he's a homicidal clown.
That's like claiming Lex Luthor is merely a bald billionaire and won't stand a chance to Batman.
The psychology behind The Joker is amazing. He's a very realistic villain, and a kind of villain not always seen.
Im pretty sure any other super hero can stop him...except for Aquaman. He cant stop anyone.
But no other villain can really hold a match against who the Joker is.
Im pretty sure any other super hero can stop him...except for Aquaman. He cant stop anyone.
But no other villain can really hold a match against who the Joker is.
Yes. Villains exist for the sole purpose of being beaten, as someone to face off against the hero. Barring the need for Batman to intervene(as in, Batman is incapacitated and it's up to another hero to save the day), the hero will always win.
I think almost any other hero could beat the Joker, but that just what makes the Batman series great. It is because Batman doesn't have superpowers that automatically make him better. To be blunt, Batman is essentially like a more high tech and stronger version of Sherlock Holmes. Having (most) any hero in Arkaham, the Joker would be dead or would be thrown back in jail shortly after he brakes out. I am not bashing Batman in anyway, just saying that him and Joker work because they are a perfect balance, any other hero would mess it up.
The thing about that scene is it's not as contrived as everyone portrays it. He's in a Bat-Helicopter obviously designed to be on the ocean (has floatation struts) and he pulls it from a box, not his belt, containing various other aquatic animal sprays (like barracuda, whale and manta). So it's admittedly pretty ridiculous , but not like he just magically pulled it out of his belt.SirBryghtside said:
Okay, I'm going to start by admitting something: I have never, ever picked up an issue of a superhero comic book in my life. I have never liked comic book style art--something about it just bothers me enough that I can't get into any story told solely with it. Also, I'm of the younger generation. By the time I came along, the comic books had so many different storylines and universes that I, frankly, can't keep up. Through games, movies, and talking to people who have read comics, I've seen/heard a good deal about Batman, Superman, Joker, the Punisher, Green Lantern, Lex Luthor, etc., etc., etc.
So, yeah. That's where this comes from.
In my opinion, good versions of Joker, like the Mark Hamill one or the Heath Ledger one, could technically be defeated by other superheroes. Green Lantern could drop a giant slab of green rock on him, or Superman could snap his neck like a twig, or Punisher could shoot him in the face, or whatever. But...there would be a cost. Joker is always prepared for varying possibilities. If he were killed, someone else, say, Harley Quinn, would put a carefully crafted plan of his into motion that would make Joker's death a Pyrrhic victory at best. Killing Joker would set something in motion to destroy them, or reveal their secret identities, or kill those they obviously know and care about, or some combination thereof. And just defeating him? Well...to see how that works out, go play Arkham Asylum.
You know, this is a ridiculously long post from me, seeing as how most of my Joker experience has been Mark Hamill, Heath Ledger, and whoever played him in the Adam West era.
So, yeah. That's where this comes from.
In my opinion, good versions of Joker, like the Mark Hamill one or the Heath Ledger one, could technically be defeated by other superheroes. Green Lantern could drop a giant slab of green rock on him, or Superman could snap his neck like a twig, or Punisher could shoot him in the face, or whatever. But...there would be a cost. Joker is always prepared for varying possibilities. If he were killed, someone else, say, Harley Quinn, would put a carefully crafted plan of his into motion that would make Joker's death a Pyrrhic victory at best. Killing Joker would set something in motion to destroy them, or reveal their secret identities, or kill those they obviously know and care about, or some combination thereof. And just defeating him? Well...to see how that works out, go play Arkham Asylum.
Joker gets locked up again in the end, but how many people died that night during the break-out in Arkham? All those guards lying around dead? What about their families? How much grief and misery and pain was caused? And that was immediately after Batman had "defeated" him and locked him up again (yes, I know it was a set-up, but bad stuff seems to happen every time Joker is beaten). And, well...Arkham City. Admittedly, I'm still playing through it, but being "defeated" didn't seem to work out too badly for Joker from what I've seen.
You know, this is a ridiculously long post from me, seeing as how most of my Joker experience has been Mark Hamill, Heath Ledger, and whoever played him in the Adam West era.