Toaster Hunter said:
Xerxes, before the battle of Thermopylae asked this same question to a Greek defector. The defector said that one to one, a Spartan was little better than any other Greek soldier. In a group, however, they were worth several times their number. It was their discipline and unit cohesion that was their strength, not individual ability.
Quite so, believe that was Demeratus (given the Satrapy of Pergamon, I think, since he was one of the former Duarchs of Sparta...)
8-Bit_Jack said:
EVERYONE kicked their ass.
Sparta had a long history of picking fights they weren't gonna win.
Take Thermopylae, that most famous of battles. The reason that around 300 spartans were there against an entire army was that THEY COULDN'T SPARE ANYONE ELSE. Sparta was a state maintaining itself through slave labor and the reason they lived in such a heavy military state is to prevent slave uprising. 300 was all they could offer the war effort, and when they lost at Thermopylae (the only accurate part in 300), sparta pulled out of the war with persia entirely and let the significantly less gay "boy-lovers" of Athens and all the other city-states fight the persian army themselves. And they won.
Uh, that begs the question, why were the Spartans so feared as a military force in the first place if they kept losing?
And you've got things mixed up there: the first invasion resulted in Marathon that the Spartans missed because they were dealing with the Carneia (religious festival) which they wouldn't cancel for anything. Thermopylae was the second invasion and again, more Spartans weren't committed for religious reasons. And if they 'pulled out of the war with persia entirely', then who the fuck fought at Plataea (approx. 5000 Spartiates accompanied by 10000 Laconian allies plus 25000 Hellenic allies) and Mycale (approx. 2000 Spartan marines led by Leotychides, who, I might add, was Leonidas' co-king)?!?! (note distinction between Spartiate and Spartan...)
warprincenataku said:
They say samurai could kill ten men and that ninjas could kill ten samurai. So a Spartan, in my opinion is at least as good as a Samurai.
Poor context there, mate. Single combat, Samurai will kick shit loads of Spartans. Set-piece battles, a four-deep phalanx of Spartans could fight (and kill) Samurai all day long without charging. Ninjas aren't military, so won't comment about that.
this isnt my name said:
Didnt some other Greeks kick thier ass, began with a T or something.
So yeah depends who they fight.
The Thebans at Leuctra (371BC), first recorded case of en echelon/refused flank tactics. Sacred Band absolutely mullered the Spartiate hoplites present (helped by 40 ranks of pushing behind them).
Anyway, the poll was a bit weird... what's with the option 'only Persians could kill Spartans'? B-fucking-S, they couldn't kill *any* Greek, pretty much. Case in point, after the whole Darius epic fail in the first invasion of Greece, a lot of Persian armies were composed of hoplite mercenaries (prime example: Battle of Cunaxa, go look it up). Hell, when Alexander first fought the Persians at Granicus, all the Persians buggered off halfway through the battle because they were getting their asses handed to them, leaving the Greek mercenaries to slug it out.
Still, it does depend on who they fight. Battle of Mantinea (the first one 418BC), Spartans on the right, whacked the Athenians, perfect discipline allowed them to roll up the centre and win the battle even though their own left flank was messed up. Therefore, Spartans are superior in terms of discipline and will always win in an equal-depth hoplite-hoplite fight.
However, take Battle of Lechaeum, 600 Spartiate hoplites vs 1000ish peltasts led by Iphicrates. The Athenians win by using hit-and-run tactics and hand the Spartans their butts on their own shields. Thureophoroi were probably the best troops to deal with hoplites, and it worked here too.
With regard to Spartan vs Macedonian (i.e. doru/dory vs sarissa), we'll never know, for all the conjecture. Greek uprising just before Alexander gallivants off to Turkey. He sends ultimatums to all the Greek cities and to Sparta saying words to the effect that if we come along, we'll fuck up all your shit, to which the ephors reply saying 'if'(!) So, Alexander takes out all the other Greek cities, but when he reaches Sparta, simply turns around and walks home. Thus, he must have had the impression that while Sparta could be conquered, it was just not worth the effort, even though by this time, there can't have been more than a couple thousand male Spartiates and a total of zero imperial aspirations, they still gave military leaders pause for thought.
Whew... long post. Sorry. In short: COMBINED ARMS wins every time
EDIT: for the record, according to Herodotus, numbers at Thermopylae:
Peloponnesians: 300 Spartiates, 700 Laconians, 1000 helots, 500 Tegeans, 500 Mantineans, 400 Corinthians, 1200 Arcadians, 300 other hoplites
Other Greeks: 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans, 1000 Phocians, 800 Locrians
vs (modern estimate) 150000 Persians
Go do the maths
