Poll: The thing about Square Enix

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Criquefreak

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You're blaming Enix for the shortcomings and not their insane decision of firing Hironobu Sakaguchi? Enix was a bigger name in Japan than Square and the games we're seeing from both were designed first for a non-American audience. If you want to place blame with certain disagreable elements, point that finger on Japanese popular culture then with the attempt to innovate a genre.

To their credit, Square-Enix has been trying to innovate with the Final Fantasy series, simplifying the grind of combat systems (as opposed to the hundreds of other companies pulling the same stuff that's been done for decades). Turn-based and multiple character control combat systems just bog down a game when it's supposed to focus on the story. A random encounter isn't significant and the culmination of them all dominating 70% or more of game play time is rather depressing. They've been trying to find ways to speed things along and having players most-used tactics simply happen without wasting the players time to reinput those orders every few seconds. Technically they've been doing something right, having the software do the mindless repetitive work for the player, obviously it doesn't go over as well with some of the audience (who feel they've had control ripped from them).

It's also confusing to expect the same game experience from any two games in the series, especially with the cross-over into MMO territory. A few thematic similarities and a similar name are often the only things they have in common. There is, however, a great marketability in a familiar brand name. Had they given nearly every game unique names, they'd have to work a lot harder to advertise each one rather than relying on the word of mouth of games prior.

Of the specific analysis and criticism of the presented games, this is negligible and lazy complaint mostly by stereotypes.

So what if X-2 had more female appeal due to featuring three female primary protagonists and no males, to call it pink furry fun is confusing it with the rather offensive crap that's intended to be marketed as games for girls. You still spend the game in a world of conflict, having to fight for your life against an abundance of monsters and sift through vague hints of a friend's survival. A more fitting criticism is how often the 100% ideal ending requires the player to be sidetracked from the primary story.

XII's primary protagonist probably goes over a lot better with the original audience, but there's still the rest of the cast of characters for a player to relate to. Sometimes this sort of thing happens in a story, it's impossible to appeal to everyone. He was, however, the best choice for introducing the story to the player. He had definite goals that had nothing to do with the circumstances he was dragged into, it's the classic call to adventure that's persisted games, movies, and novels; much like him, the player was being introduced to the conflicts and plot.

XIII's choice of linear maps actually makes a lot of sense from a design perspective. They're fugitives, actively being pursued, they do not have time to be exploring every corner of a world. Had they made a more open world, they'd either have to continually enforce the error of judgment on the player through capture and likely game over or they'd simply be breaking the theme of the story (not to mention the sheer incompetence of their pursuers that can't catch up to them wandering aimlessly). They also could just have the characters pause and prevent exploration by reminding the player how bad an idea it would be to wander off, constantly breaking immersion, but instead they tried to reinforce the point of urgency.

XI and XIV get only meh. It's extremely hard work to make an MMO, more so for those companies that aren't making WoW clones. If you're going to criticize something, at least take the time to evaluate their merits and flaws.

XI has a lot bad and good going for it such as making one character capable of pursuing any class/profession the player wants or even all of them but having character development only happen through gruelingly long amounts of time spent in combat, which can sometimes set a character back more levels than proceeding. Instead of forcing enmity of players due to factions and encouraging griefplay, PvP was completely optional. The players were, however, completely at the mercy of the player economy as regular game play and the npc markets were insufficient to remain at a competent outfitting of gear and often powers.

XIV has good graphics going for it, some interesting ideas in customizing character tactics, and a more living world feel to quests. It's also had a reception as bland, jarring mechanics, and seriously lacking in the level of polish expected not only of a commercially-released game but of Square-Enix in general. But I can't go into a lot more detail on this title having little personal analysis of it thus far.
 

Blue_vision

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Mar 31, 2009
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Defense said:
Blue_vision said:
I didn't personally like any of the Final Fantasy games, but I could see the appeal of a few, like III and VII. But now we've got over 13 of them, and it's just a big hulking monstrosity of the same thing ground down to a blunt object.
Actually, Final Fantasy is one of the series that changed most, gameplay wise. Final Fantasy I was classic turn based, II adopted an experimental form of stat grinding and put levels in magic and weapons instead of characters, III went back and used a prototype Job system and introduced summons, IV finally made the Active Time Battle System, V improved upon III and made an amazing Job system, VI introduced magicite, VII had materia, VIII had magic junctions, X had a sphere grid, XII wasn't even turn based, and XIII changed quite a few things, like removing almost all stats and making Stagger.
It may have changed a lot over time, but this is like a single change per game. The overall structure is still the same, and somehow I don't feel like we should wait 5 games for the difference to be "revolutionary." It really feels like they're just using their license to print money, with the innovation coming as a requirement to print some more. "This is the exact same game!" "Noooo, in this one, we added 2 new jobs!"
 

mjc0961

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Nov 30, 2009
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Blue_vision said:
AxCx said:
All Square Enix games suck IMO. I need not say more.
Try: Just Cause 2

But other than that, I agree. Square Enix is probably my least liked games developer, because I don't even see how you could like their games.
Just Cause 2 doesn't count. Square Enix didn't make it, only published it. They don't get points for some other company's work, not in my opinion anyway.

Sir John the Net Knight said:
You're never going to get a truly fair discussion about JRPGs or Final Fantasy from this community. Sadly there are just too many people eager to blindly mimic Yahtzee's point of view, which is that JRPGs can never be good games, expect for Earthbound.
I'd say it's the other way around: nobody is ever going to get a fair discussion with you about the subject because you hate Yahtzee so much that you'd just write off anyone who says FF sucks as some drooling ZP fanboy who doesn't know what to think about a game until Yahtzee gets a funny video out about it.

I mean, right, never mind the libraries many of us have that contain plenty of good JPRGs many of us have, feel free to flame all of us because we don't like some of the not so great games in the genre and/or because YOU have a problem with one of the content creators for this site. It's always appreciated.
 

TheGreatKlaid

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I swear it's always something with you people. The Final Fantasies have had their ups and downs. FF7 was amazing so was FF12. FF8 and FF10 were mediocre. FF5 was alright had a lot of difficulty problems. The worst? The second one and I still went through it. It's a long lasting series with changes in the people making them. I bet you XV will be regarded as a masterpiece. Also, working on XIII and liking it, if it gets more depth to it I'll give it high marks. If it stays like it is after learning Paradigms then I'll still like it more than 8.
 

Defense

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Blue_vision said:
]It may have changed a lot over time, but this is like a single change per game. The overall structure is still the same, and somehow I don't feel like we should wait 5 games for the difference to be "revolutionary." It really feels like they're just using their license to print money, with the innovation coming as a requirement to print some more. "This is the exact same game!" "Noooo, in this one, we added 2 new jobs!"
Well, yes, it still is a "turn based" battle system at the core, but these single changes really are significant changes, and as a person that played most Final Fantasy games, I can confirm that.

As far as it comes with milking, the Final Fantasy name is still being milked by other developers(Chocobo Tales, seriously?) but I don't think Square Enix is actually milking their product nearly as much as the other developers, probably barring Final Fantasy VII. I don't think I said milking enough.
 

Blue_vision

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Mar 31, 2009
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mjc0961 said:
Blue_vision said:
AxCx said:
All Square Enix games suck IMO. I need not say more.
Try: Just Cause 2

But other than that, I agree. Square Enix is probably my least liked games developer, because I don't even see how you could like their games.
Just Cause 2 doesn't count. Square Enix didn't make it, only published it. They don't get points for some other company's work, not in my opinion anyway.
In that case, get the pitchforks back out :p It's the only game with a Square Enix label that I actually like, so I had to get excited. Thinking about it though, that kind of makes sense.
 

Atmos Duality

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To date, there is exactly one Squeenix title that I like: FFT: War of the Lions
And it's a remake. So they can't even take full credit for it.

However, it is the only remake that genuinely improved the story in just about every way.

Apart from that, Squeenix is a fucking travesty.
Words cannot describe my hatred for their work; for the shameless rape of my childhood favorites. The utter blandness of their flagship titles; their seemingly deliberate squelching of any creativity in their company.

I mean seriously. The art direction for every game they've made has been almost identical for their last 4 games. (Every time I see Lightning I think of Ashe...why is that? The Lusty Lepus, midgets with magic, all of those super-smoothed/rounded heads and faces..)

They treat me and other fans like brainless marks, and honestly, they should be above that.
What the hell happened?
 

Signa

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CmdrGoob said:
Blue_vision said:
AxCx said:
All Square Enix games suck IMO. I need not say more.
Try: Just Cause 2

But other than that, I agree. Square Enix is probably my least liked games developer, because I don't even see how you could like their games.
I believe that was only published by SE - they had no role in actually making it.
As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to destroy a game. Look at Supreme Commander 2. I really doubt that was all Chris Taylor's doing. Also, the trailers for the new Deus Ex game looks pretty lame when considering what the original was like. I forgot to notice that JC2 was published by SE, so hearing that shows me that not EVERYTHING they touch turns to shit.

Seriously, even if there are exceptions, I consider SE to be the reverse Midas-touch for games. At least the games EA and Activision make/publish are on average more playable.
 

Squilookle

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AxCx said:
Blue_vision said:
AxCx said:
All Square Enix games suck IMO. I need not say more.
Try: Just Cause 2

But other than that, I agree. Square Enix is probably my least liked games developer, because I don't even see how you could like their games.
Tried it. It was fun, I will give you that. But it was fun for about 2 hours and then it lost its appeal for another week.

So, they made a game where you blow shit up and dive out of planes. It may be entertaining for a while, but its something that almost any other game dev could have come up with. I mean... "I got it guys. Lets make a game where we blow shit up. This is gonna be like a revolution. This is the next Half Life. I cant think of ANY game that has done that before."
Do please show me the mention that anyone on the team thought they were making the next half life. From the dev videos I saw, they seemed to understand their target audience pretty well.

You just weren't part of it. Oh well.
 

Charli

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Nov 23, 2008
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What's all this "downhill from 7" Malarkey?

Viva numero 9! THAT was when it got stupid. Tidus set the bar for all the boring characters to come after him and the bad bad style choice thusly.
 

Et3rnalLegend64

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Steppin Razor said:
Zanarch812 said:
I see what they're trying to do by trying out new methods and new techniques and that if they remade the same game OVER and OVER, it would be boring. But that doesn't mean they have to completely change the formula that made FF great. Final Fantasy XIII is barely recognizable as a Final Fantasy. There was no Turn-based combat, you only controlled one character, there were no towns to explore, it was linear, there were no NPC's to pester, there was no Nobuo Uematsu. Infact the only thing I seemed to recognize was the Summon names... and only a few of them.
FFVIII didn't have turn-based combat. I'm not sure about the original game, but the DS remake of FFIV doesn't have turn-based combat either. They use the ATB gauge to determine when you can attack. You only controlled one character in combat because you really only could control one character. The fights were too fast-paced for you to have time to mess around telling the other characters what to do. They had the Paradigm system though, so you had a bit of control over what the other party members would do.
I think you messed up somewhere. The ATB system is still turn based at heart. It just mixes things up compared to a straight up "order determined by speed stat" system.
 

CarlsonAndPeeters

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Just going to put in my two cents and say that I have never been an RPG fan and have never played any of the main Final Fantasy games, but Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2 were awesome. Clearly the company is at least capable of greatness.
 

Atmos Duality

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Charli said:
What's all this "downhill from 7" Malarkey?

Viva numero 9! THAT was when it got stupid. Tidus set the bar for all the boring characters to come after him and the bad bad style choice thusly.
Yeah, I would draw the line in the sand straight down the middle of FFX.
The last original work that they published that was truly amazing was Chrono Cross. Kingdom Hearts was pretty damn good for its time (albeit, piss easy), but the downward spiral had already begun.

Now, I will freely admit that from a story and style standpoint, I hated FF9.
But the gameplay and combat felt like those old school JRPGs I grew up with; each character had a unique advantage at some point of the game so nobody was strictly useless until the end.
(Eiko completely outclasses Garnet, Steiner hits like a truck, and Freya is the Goddess of Destruction. Seriously, I would totally go furry for the Rat Lady Who Owns You, and I'm normally weirded out by that stuff).

I was driving home today and I actually was thinking about Squeenix.
It makes me wonder how on earth they went from making games like Super Mario RPG, Chrono Trigger, FFT, and Parasite Eve (all wildly different variations of the RPG genre) etc to churning out garbage like FF12, 13, Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus.
They really lost the creative soul of their company.

Now FF14 is out, and it looks like one of the worst games they've ever made.
It's an MMORPG based on primarily on grind that actively limits your grinding to ensure it takes the most time possible. And they want to charge a subscription fee for that.
That is quite possibly the worst game concept I can imagine.
 

migo

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People complain about X-2, but they just don't realise they're not the target audience. The Yuna/Tidus love story in X was a big hit with girls, and X-2 was targetted at them. Men don't make up the entire gaming market. In fact, XII is quite popular among the girls I know, so it strikes me that maybe Square Enix is just shifting demographics and bringing girls into gaming, which is a totally retarded thing to be complaining about.
 

Legendsmith

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Blue_vision said:
AxCx said:
All Square Enix games suck IMO. I need not say more.
Try: Just Cause 2
Yes, but JC2 has terrible story and voice acting. The only redeeming quality is the gameplay which is over-the-top in a good way. Don't get me wrong, I love JC2 but I want to kill the voice actor for Tom Sheldon and whoever wrote his character.

The thing that really, really makes me hate Square Enix is what they did to Supreme Commander with Supreme Commander 2. They murdered the series with that game. It wasn't just a step down from the first game, it was a BASE jump.
 

Z(ombie)fan

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Sir John the Net Knight said:
Z(ombie)fan said:
I don't touch anything by them that wasn't on super nintendo. (Dawn of souls excluded.)

they are a really"bleh" company who constant forget the absolute most important part of any story: subtlety

"doooh this guy isn't a super smar-"
"lets make him so stupid hes more annoying than the last fucktarded character we made!"
"yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!"

zell from FFVII was so flamboyant... just... bleh.

also, these people need to learn that they AREN"T FUNNY. they don't generally go for a humorous angle, but my god help my tolerance for them when they do.
Did someone actually post that here? Zell isn't from 7, he's from 8. And probably one of the least androgynous characters square has created.
dah crap...

that was a typo.
 

Tanis

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Aug 30, 2010
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burningdragoon said:
Yeah I would say that's about right.
Oh look a new FF title, awesome.
Meh, I didn't like that at all.
Oh look a new FF title, awesome.
...repeat
FF fans are the RPG version of Sonic fans.

:(
 

Akihiko

Raincoat Killer
Aug 21, 2008
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Another of these threads? Really?

We get it. XIII wasn't like VII or VI or whatever FF you value so highly. They actually tried something new, god forbid. It's staggering how people moan that JRPGs are stagnating, yet when someone actually bothers to try something new, it gets hated to eternity just because it wasn't the same tried formula. Not everyone's going to like it, it is impossible to please everyone, but saying Square Enix are rubbish now because of it is a ridiculous notion, they can't help it if what they made, you don't like. If the game truly failed it wouldn't have sold 5.5million, nor would it have got a metacritic average of 8.3(Not as great as other FF's sure, but it didn't fail).

Now if we were talking about XIV... I can't really defend them on that one. That launch was just a massive mess. Admittedly I still think it's better than every other mmorpg released excluding WoW, but that really isn't an achievement considering every other MMORPG just failed at trying to be WoW... I'm not quite sure why they're trying to compete with WoW while it's still strong.