Poll: Thoughts on Netflix as a provider for mature animation?

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Hectix777

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TL;DR: Would Netflix ever make a move to create mature animation (like an X-Files cartoon)? Saying this now because their is a WALL of text, bruh. Just savin' ya the trouble.

You know what bothers me about animation? It can be used to create amazing and unbelievable worlds, create scenarios that parallel our own in reality, and ultimately get message through to the viewer unlike other shows, but they're all always aimed at kids, and that's what bugs me. So far there has been only one exception to the rule "Animation is only for kids" and that was the Electric City web series with Tom Hanks(which I really really liked). It's a cartoon, but it's not about stupid animals doing something stupid with stupider characters to drive up the stupidity. It was a post-apocalyptic utopian spy-thriller, watching how fragile this new city built after the end of the world is and the lengths people will go to protect it or change it. This was something that would be shot down before pen touches paper at a concept meeting for a cartoon(I don't know how animation production works). But it was made, it was watched, and it won an award. It was mature, it had something to say; it had an intrinsic value that you got from it (at least I did) and it was fairly insightful.

Moving on from my mouth-foaming fangirling, the thing that ticks me off is that shows like Electric City are rarer than White Rhinos. You can't make a mature cartoon with a deep meaning on network TV, you can only make cartoons like Bob's Burgers or the Simpsons, and while network TV is willing to allow more adult things to be said and done, it's still mainly rooted in comedy (see Archer or Dethklok). The only truly mature cartoons I've seen that aren't from the East (Ghost in the Shell, Stein's Gate, etc.) were the DC animated shows like Justice League or Batman.
When you were a kid you just watched it for the action, but if you go back now the show actually gets better when you're older because now you're in on all the inside and adult jokes, as well as grasp the concept of super heroes and their effects on politics and the world and even why Cadmus built synthetic Supers to fight them (I even understood what the heck Lex Luthor was saying when he built that low-budget city in his campaign for presidency). These shows amazed me when I was a kid, and now fascinate and challenge me as a young adult. While it was brilliant in managing to have such adult concepts intermingling with what was essentially supers vs supers, it was still a show for children (just barely, barely). I get animation is costly, but why hasn't any other show tried an animated cop drama or something? My only guess is that they're too afraid to try something new because of the losses they could experience from something like that bombing, so they stick to basics. While I get that basic and even network isn't all that excited about experimenting, Netflix seems pretty ecstatic about it.

Netflix is pretty much dominating television and movies to the point where its invention caused the collapse entire corporations whose sole profit was from renting movies and tv shows on VHS or DVD. So it safe to say the Netflix is pretty amazing as well as successful; successful enough to create another season for Arrested Development, create two new award winning shows, and even become the sole financier for a cartoon that was actually nominated for an emmy.

It's safe to say Netflix has almost become the sort of place where the crazy ideas that could only thrive on the net have also found a new home on Netflix(I can always be wrong, so don't hold me at gunpoint for that statement). It's the sort of place where HBO class shows (in terms of subject matter) could find a home there, and even encourage experimentation. They have the money to finance two seasons of a cartoon (which I assume isn't cheap, unless it's flash), so why not something bigger? I'm sure they'd be sceptical of something like this at first, but would be more than willing to give it a try. They gave Orange and House of Cards a shot, and those have become fighting reasons for people to join Netflix. Heck, maybe they'd be willing to be the primary financiers for new seasons of Symbiotic Titan or final installment to Samurai Jack, or create something even new and philosophical.

I don't think I'm being completely naive and starry-eyed here (at least I hope), I honestly believe Netflix would be willing to at least listen and see a concept of something like this in action. And then maybe from there, networks try something similar.

What do you think? Could Netflix be a provider of deeper animation? Or would it rather not attempt the loss it could experience? Or maybe it would be willing to try and catch lightning twice, and finance something that manages to mix maturity with big fights like late '00s Justice League?
 

Elementary - Dear Watson

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Well they have some more mature anime on the American side, so showing it wouldn't be a problem. I guess the issue would be finding the audience. Anime is established with a big fandom, and therefore an easy win for marketing and gaining support, but western animation is seen more for children, and the scope for something more adult would be more of a business risk...

Then again they have Archer... :p
 

Hectix777

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Elementary - Dear Watson said:
Well they have some more mature anime on the American side, so showing it wouldn't be a problem. I guess the issue would be finding the audience. Anime is established with a big fandom, and therefore an easy win for marketing and gaining support, but western animation is seen more for children, and the scope for something more adult would be more of a business risk...

Then again they have Archer... :p
Well Tron was fairly mature and managed to attract an audience outside of its desired child demo, so it does show that a cartoon catering for a deeper experience is something in demand for media.
 

Danny Dowling

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Well atm they have Kill La Kill, which is not mature. In fact, I feel awkward just looking at it sometimes.

I dunno though, if it seems like a business move worthwhile then they will.
 

CelestDaer

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Danny Dowling said:
Well atm they have Kill La Kill, which is not mature. In fact, I feel awkward just looking at it sometimes.
That's absolutely intentional, it's a deconstruction of the usual ecchi tropes. I think I just coughed up a lung to actually put that sentence together. I'm so sorry.
The most 'mature' animation I can think of would be that horrible horrible Spawn series from the 90's... America's idea of 'mature' involves nudity and blood... especially in regards to animation.
 

Danny Dowling

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CelestDaer said:
Danny Dowling said:
Well atm they have Kill La Kill, which is not mature. In fact, I feel awkward just looking at it sometimes.
That's absolutely intentional, it's a deconstruction of the usual ecchi tropes. I think I just coughed up a lung to actually put that sentence together. I'm so sorry.
The most 'mature' animation I can think of would be that horrible horrible Spawn series from the 90's... America's idea of 'mature' involves nudity and blood... especially in regards to animation.
America's? Japan's.

Whatever the *ahem* intention of Kill La Kill, one thing is certain; the girl needs more clothes. Sorry, but she needs more clothes and it gets in the way. Right in the way.
 

Hectix777

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Danny Dowling said:
CelestDaer said:
Danny Dowling said:
Well atm they have Kill La Kill, which is not mature. In fact, I feel awkward just looking at it sometimes.
That's absolutely intentional, it's a deconstruction of the usual ecchi tropes. I think I just coughed up a lung to actually put that sentence together. I'm so sorry.
The most 'mature' animation I can think of would be that horrible horrible Spawn series from the 90's... America's idea of 'mature' involves nudity and blood... especially in regards to animation.
America's? Japan's.

Whatever the *ahem* intention of Kill La Kill, one thing is certain; the girl needs more clothes. Sorry, but she needs more clothes and it gets in the way. Right in the way.
Well two things here:

1) What I meant by provider I don't mean like its usual streaming services, more in the sense of them finding a studio and financing a mature and deep project. Say for example, Netflix hires Bryan Konietzko and Michael DiMartino and say,"We like what you do, we think we can make a profit from what you do,". Then the duo rebuttal with,"What if we want to make something more mature, something that would come across as non-kid friendly." Netflix says,"if it's good, we'll buy it."

I guess the word I'm looking for would be financier or distributor.

2) On Kill La Kill, it actually has a lot with women reaching puberty, coming to terms with their sexuality, and being unashamed of your own body. The suits actually lose power when you become ashamed of it, you lose your sense of self-worth when you show your body. In order to activate the kamui it needs blood, i.e. a girl hitting menstruation and having her first period. If you pay attention, yeah, the suits that look like lingerie are on display, but after awhile it takes backseat to the deeper meaning of the show and the fights. This is stuff that I saw, looking back on that it looks like I'm grasping at straws, but oh well.

But what are your thoughts on Netflix commissioning mature (not porn) cartoon series? Or even wrapping up old unfinished ones like Samurai Jack?
 

Someone Depressing

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Well, western animation is still something seen as a "kids thing". Parents let their kids watch South Park, Seth Macfarlane cartoons and Beavis and Butthead, and they start questioning their child over where they learned the word "buttfucker". Anime doesn't have that constraint, because there's an anime for everything and everyone.

So, while I doubt Netflix will start dabbling in what animators and writers will consider "mature animation" (read: blood, tits, obscure references, and animation that gets steadily worse as the show goes on) but really, western animation with a mature feel and story is a truly untapped market.

And that's terrible. But I can certainly tell you even the really nasty anime stuff like Kemonozume and some of Gainax's more... risque work will not be popping up there any time soon.
 

Danny Dowling

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Hectix777 said:
Danny Dowling said:
CelestDaer said:
Danny Dowling said:
Well atm they have Kill La Kill, which is not mature. In fact, I feel awkward just looking at it sometimes.
That's absolutely intentional, it's a deconstruction of the usual ecchi tropes. I think I just coughed up a lung to actually put that sentence together. I'm so sorry.
The most 'mature' animation I can think of would be that horrible horrible Spawn series from the 90's... America's idea of 'mature' involves nudity and blood... especially in regards to animation.
America's? Japan's.

Whatever the *ahem* intention of Kill La Kill, one thing is certain; the girl needs more clothes. Sorry, but she needs more clothes and it gets in the way. Right in the way.
Well two things here:

1) What I meant by provider I don't mean like its usual streaming services, more in the sense of them finding a studio and financing a mature and deep project. Say for example, Netflix hires Bryan Konietzko and Michael DiMartino and say,"We like what you do, we think we can make a profit from what you do,". Then the duo rebuttal with,"What if we want to make something more mature, something that would come across as non-kid friendly." Netflix says,"if it's good, we'll buy it."

I guess the word I'm looking for would be financier or distributor.

2) On Kill La Kill, it actually has a lot with women reaching puberty, coming to terms with their sexuality, and being unashamed of your own body. The suits actually lose power when you become ashamed of it, you lose your sense of self-worth when you show your body. In order to activate the kamui it needs blood, i.e. a girl hitting menstruation and having her first period. If you pay attention, yeah, the suits that look like lingerie are on display, but after awhile it takes backseat to the deeper meaning of the show and the fights. This is stuff that I saw, looking back on that it looks like I'm grasping at straws, but oh well.

But what are your thoughts on Netflix commissioning mature (not porn) cartoon series? Or even wrapping up old unfinished ones like Samurai Jack?
We can get deep with it, or we can see that it's school kids wearing not nearly enough clothes. I don't a problem with the idea of being comfortable with your body, but their application of that was... well I wouldn't ever show anyone Kill La Kill whereas I'm generally game to show friends anime series I like.

Samurai Jack is unfinished? Damn, Samurai Jack is a masterpiece of art and animation. With the danger of butchering that art, I'm game for more Jack.
 

Hectix777

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Someone Depressing said:
western animation with a mature feel and story is a truly untapped market.
This made me remember Tron: Uprising, and ask why wasn't that streamed more? I don't know why children have to be the means of income when adults with access to greater capital to spend on whatever could buy whatever, related to that show.

But I can't believe that it's mainly about demo, I mean my Grandpa used me as an excuse to go see Spirited Away and he was fairly old school.
 

Elementary - Dear Watson

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Hectix777 said:
Elementary - Dear Watson said:
Well they have some more mature anime on the American side, so showing it wouldn't be a problem. I guess the issue would be finding the audience. Anime is established with a big fandom, and therefore an easy win for marketing and gaining support, but western animation is seen more for children, and the scope for something more adult would be more of a business risk...

Then again they have Archer... :p
Well Tron was fairly mature and managed to attract an audience outside of its desired child demo, so it does show that a cartoon catering for a deeper experience is something in demand for media.
Good point! Well I can only hope for more of this!
 

thanatos388

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I think if they got more anime on there they might try something like that. Animation would probably be easier to take a chance on (while it may be considered expensive in Japan, the cost of anime is like dirt cheap in america, one 24 min episode of Modern Family costs like 4 episodes worth of most anime and Louie costs about $300,000 an episode and that is considered dirt cheap). So the only thing holding them back would be interest and most Netflix originals seem to be trying to tap into the the "TV novel" market that comes from HBO and AMC right now.
 

Someone Depressing

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thanatos388 said:
I think if they got more anime on there they might try something like that. Animation would probably be easier to take a chance on (while it may be considered expensive in Japan, the cost of anime is like dirt cheap in america, one 24 min episode of Modern Family costs like 4 episodes worth of most anime and Louie costs about $300,000 an episode and that is considered dirt cheap). So the only thing holding them back would be interest and most Netflix originals seem to be trying to tap into the the "TV novel" market that comes from HBO and AMC right now.
Western animation - due to frequent use of techniques like squash and stretch, off model, smoother frames, and an emphasis on expression - can cost anywhere from $250,000 to $400,000. Yes, a single episode of SpongebobSquarepants costs more than the average man's house, and that's just in animation alone.

But if you look at an anime, you'll notice a lot of not-so-subtle tricks, like side-mouth, a lack of jaw animation, and model sheets being used more consistently. There are usually only three states a mouth can be in - closed, talking, and open wide. As such, animation is incredibly cheap, with the more expensive episodes costing about as much as a cheap western animation at worst. Otherwise, they're usually about $125,000.

This is also why anime styles are being adopted by cartoonists and animators in the west - because it's easy, you can get away with more stuff because it's seen as a "style" (as opposed to, say, laziness and having a budget that mostly went into keeping the employee fridge stocked) and because it usually requires less frames to give the illusion of movement, making tweeners [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbetweening] (non-key animators) pointless.

That, and taking in a lot of other points and details, can give you a pretty detailed image about why anime is so much cheaper.

Yeah, if Netflix wanted to make an anime, they could make it as long as they wanted. Nothing holding them back.
 

Ten Foot Bunny

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Color me disappointed. I came into this thread thinking it'd be a debate on the merits of Debbie Does Donald Duck in a Lubricated Piano. After how much money I paid to watch that, I'd be upset seeing it show up on Netflix all of a sudden.

Doomsday Averted!