Poll: Treasure Vs. Platinum Games: Who is your favorite?

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The dodge offset alone in Bayonetta completely separates it from all other hack and slashers.

How so?

The dodge offset allows you to continue a combo after a dodge. Basically, if say combo requires PPPKKK, you can dodge on the 3rd punch and then kick 3 times after the dodge to complete the combo instead of starting over.

Then, there's Vanquish that totally curb stomps all other TPSs like Uncharted and Gears (which are both style over substance).

I prefer both of those games over Vanquish. They may not be as tough-as-nails which makes it much less impressive to boast about how you've beaten them; but their controls are more responsive and their combat scenarios tend to be more carefully designed than simply "throw tons of enemis at you" like in Vanquish.

It's not about difficulty. Both Bayonetta and Vanquish have really easy modes; Bayonetta's very easy allows you to do wicked weaves with one button press and Vanquish's easiest mode has auto-aim. I feel Normal is just about right in both games, a proper Normal. I find Normal to be too easy in most games especially last gen and current gen, it's like impossible to die in some games like Assassin's Creed. I do love how Bayonetta eases the player into using the dodge offset mechanic by giving you more and more witch time immune enemies as you go up each difficulty level so when you do get to the highest level (with no witch time), you should be prepared.

It's about the gameplay depth. You can play through Vanquish just like Uncharted and just enjoy the ride. If you want more depth, Vanquish has it as well as Bayonetta whereas Uncharted doesn't. No way Uncharted controls better than Vanquish. Naughty Dog has no clue how to make a TPS (after FOUR TRIES): 1) you can't adjust the sluggish as hell camera sensitivity in their games (that's the camera you fucking aim with, and you can't change it all the way from Uncharted 1 thru TLOU), 2) circle for both cover and roll has never worked (even Susan on this site who gave Uncharted 3 5/5 said the controls suck), and 3) the shoulder swapping is done wrong in Uncharted (you can't aim over your left shoulder initially; in fairness, Vanquish has no shoulder swap but it's single player only). With all that said, I do love Uncharted 2 but Uncharted 1 was bad (for gameplay) along with Uncharted 3 (for story and characters).

Many sections of their games drag on for longer than they should, their games also tend to feature poorly done levels where the gameplay suddenly changes (the motorcycle and rocket-riding levels in Bayonetta for instance) that are just no fun in the slightest and also go on for way too long to boot.

I liked the rocket-riding section as it was using the combat system in 2D, kinda neat. The motorcycle section was "meh" but it was short. It's not worse than Uncharted 1's jet ski sequences, which I think there were 3 of them. Also, Uncharted 1 is really padded as the game just throws waves of enemies at you and you even backtrack a bit at times. It really seemed like Uncharted 1 was more of a tech demo than a game. Uncharted 3 is like all padding. It makes no sense for Drake and Co. to even continue the adventure (much more so than the previous games) as they can go home and the villain literally can't win. The boat chapters make literally no sense.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Never heard of Treasure untill now, and never played any of their games either apparently.

And the only Platinum game I like was when they were still known as Clover. And that game is Okami. I never played Vanquish, but Bayonetta and Revengeance were hollow, plastic experiences. Call me when they actually get some varied gameplay, and decent character and level designers.

 

[Maximum Bert]

Never heard of Treasure.

*stunned* then again I would understand if you never gamed during the 16 bit era that was Treasures heyday as far as im concerned.

Played a few SNES games at friend's houses. Mostly Nintendo games and the odd fighting game.

I was a little kid. Back then I didn't even know what a "developer" was. If I ever played anything made by these 'Treasure' people then I wouldn't know it.

If memory serves correctly they released mostly on Sega platforms for quite a while maybe even exclusively back then (been a while) so if you only gamed on the SNES then odds are you wouldnt be playing a treasure game. For me personally I always remember them for Gunstar Heroes that game blew me away on the Mega Drive that I had to know who made it and remembered the company despite not being that old myself.

Not all their games have been gold (not surprising) but a lot were real gems back in the day although the last game I personally bought that they developed was Sin and Punishment star successor on the Wii which didnt gel with me although I cant say its bad. The last one from them I was hooked on was Ikaruga damn that games good.

I would definitely get Guardian Heroes and Radiant Silvergun on Xbox Live arcade if my 360 still worked.

 

[Uriel_Hayabusa]

It's about the gameplay depth.

Platinum games aren't that much deeper than average, though. They're every bit as style-over-substance as many other (more popular) games that the company's fans love to deride. Platinum's games usually have lots of QTEs and setpieces in lieu of actually letting the player do interesting stuff with mechanics.

Meanwhile, look at a game like Shadow of the Colossus which offers huge, dynamic bosses who can be taken down in a variety of different ways without a single QTE.

I mean, check this stunt out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGwNV0NwmQo#t=1m57s

That's all gameplay. And that was a Playstation 2 game, no less! What's Platinum's excuse?

 

[Laser Priest]

Can't say I'm too familiar with Treasure, but they're not Platinum, so that's definitely a plus for them.

I have played (and neglected to finish) Bayonetta, Vanquish and Metal Gear Rising and I couldn't stand playing a single one of them. Platinum is all about style and their style is obnoxious and terrible.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

Never heard of Treasure.

Vanquish and Metal Gear Rising are two of my favorite games, so have to go with Platinum!

 

[Sean Hollyman]

Treasure

I don't even like their games all that much, it's just that I actively dislike Platinum Games for their "style-over-substance" philosophy when it comes to gameplay mechanics, as well as the fact that their games feel very padded. It doesn't help that their fanbase is among the most insufferably elitist in the contemporary gaming scene.

What's elitist about them? I know a lot of MGR fans and we get along great!

 

[Uriel_Hayabusa]

Treasure

I don't even like their games all that much, it's just that I actively dislike Platinum Games for their "style-over-substance" philosophy when it comes to gameplay mechanics, as well as the fact that their games feel very padded. It doesn't help that their fanbase is among the most insufferably elitist in the contemporary gaming scene.

What's elitist about them? I know a lot of MGR fans and we get along great!

Plenty of them have given me flak for not liking their games or criticizing their mechanics. Your experience with Platinum fanboys isn't really comparable since you're on the same wavelength as them, what with you liking their games and all.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Platinum games aren't that much deeper than average, though. They're every bit as style-over-substance as many other (more popular) games that the company's fans love to deride. Platinum's games usually have lots of QTEs and setpieces in lieu of actually letting the player do interesting stuff with mechanics.

Meanwhile, look at a game like Shadow of the Colossus which offers huge, dynamic bosses who can be taken down in a variety of different ways without a single QTE.

I mean, check this stunt out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGwNV0NwmQo#t=1m57s

That's all gameplay. And that was a Playstation 2 game, no less! What's Platinum's excuse?

Bayonetta is as deep a hack and slash as there is (which is pretty much agreed upon by most hardcore players of the genre, maybe a DMC edges it out for best but Platinum made that anyways), just because it has style doesn't mean that it doesn't have substance. The QTEs in Bayonetta aren't in the actual gameplay. With all the different weapons and accessory combinations in Bayonetta, it has more playstyles than Dark Souls. You can freeze enemies with ice skates. God of War, on the other hand, has no substance whatsoever, you can use the same basic combo all game.

Spoiler: Here's a Bayonetta NSIC combo video

You can do so much more with Vanquish's mechanics than probably all the last-gen TPSs combined. The following is a video of a guy beating Challenge 6 in less than 5 minutes and he makes it look so easy, and it's probably the hardest last-gen game challenge. You probably wouldn't even know the game has a cover system because you don't need to use cover like Uncharted or Gears.

Spoiler: Vanquish: Challenge 6

---

I like other games like Uncharted 2 and I'm playing through The Last of Us now and having a blast. However, there's really no reason to go back and play through those games over and over because there really isn't much to master with the gameplay mechanics. I've pretty much done everything you can do in TLOU and I'm still on my 1st playthrough.

Just mechanics-wise, Platinum blows other games out of the water as there's no contextual controls in their games. With Uncharted, circle being contextual for cover and roll means you roll when you want to take cover and vice verse. With TLOU, the contextual cover system means you take cover when you don't want to or it takes a couple tries to get into cover when you do want to. It doesn't ruin the single player by any means, but in the game's multiplayer where every fraction of a second matters, the contextual controls get you killed. Just like how Ground Zeroes cover system is the same way, and it's going to ruin the online of the MGS5 if they don't change it. Just using the box in MGS5 takes a second or two when in MGS4, you could box with a press of a button. I can totally break down the mechanics of any game because I play a lot of shooters online and know the ins and outs of even the smallest things.

 

[Pink Gregory]

Feller, I think he's already expressed his opinion, and I don't think you're going to change it.

To be honest, you sound a bit like the Platinum fans that he dislikes in particular.

To be fair (and I'm saying this as a man who's favourite game is Bayonetta), it's not like you *have* to use anything but the default weapons to finish the game; sure the playstyle is different, but that's kind of a constant for all action games. Sure you have the whip and the ice skates, and maybe the parries from the Moon of Maha-Kaala, but everything else is basically variations of faster-weaker/slower-powerful.

Also, although torture attacks don't really feature in combos, that's a QTE in unscripted gameplay. Also look at any of the boss fights, you can't say QTEs aren't in the gameplay. Personally, I think they kinda fit (how is it any different than using any attack as a finisher, is my line of thinking), and when it's a finishing move mash-a-thon I don't really see how it hurts, but they're an acquired taste in this kind of game. Also, thinking about it, do you really prefer massive monster boss fights or rival (Jeanne) fights? Much as MMBFs (that's an acronym now, don't question it) fit the aesthetic more appropriately, I ultimately feel like MGR does boss encounters more interestingly because it's pretty much all rival fights, outside of the RAY.

It's not like there are enemies in Bayo that can block particular combos, technically you *could* use the same combo throughout the whole game, plus dodge/witch time. Sure you have to switch it up to obtain a high score, but is that really an argument for superior design? I don't really think so, but I do like the system.

To be honest, thinking about it, Platinum games to me seem on the far end of a spectrum that has, say, Onimusha on the near end and Ninja Gaiden in the middle.

I don't think being hyperbolic about Platinum does anyone any favours. They carry a very specific appeal that clearly resonates with people like you and I, but it's no great injustice that it's niche.

It's not like I don't disagree with his points, but his mind doesn't need to be changed if Platinum games don't resonate with him in particular.