Poll: United States Presidential Election

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Saskwach

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neoman10 post=18.71728.752455 said:
why does it matter that Macain was in POW camp, that is not a basis for leadership
I wouldn't say anyone seriously thinks it is, but as The Economist (roughly) said: "When he says he serves a higher purpose than himself, people sit up and listen [as a result]."
He had the chance to weasel out of imprisonment and didn't, on principle and according to the rules, and that cost him 5 years of life and liberty. Sure it doesn't qualify him as President but it's damn impressive, and they speak to his resolve - which is an important quality in a president.
Speech-making skills have no link to presidential ability but they're damn impressive, so people often note Obama's talent in that area. A president should impress; the personal qualities that impress people will be highlighted.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Hey, there. I'm resurrecting the thread because the debate was on today and there's a lot more to talk about...

Unless McCain just had an extraordinary bad day today (didn't look like it -- he was pretty animated and definitely held his own rhetorically) and he's never actually going to do any of the things he said he would do...

John McCain, if elected, is going to totally fuck the economy.

He actually said he would freeze nearly all government spending with the exception of defense, veterans' affairs, and unspecified "entitlements" (probably meaning social security, Medicare, &c.).

The stupidity of such a proposal is absolutely staggering. That he would even half-heartedly entertain such a notion on national TV means he has no freakin' idea what he's doing.

I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that could possibly be worse for America's economic well-being than shutting down half of the government on a whim.

-- Alex
 

Labyrinth

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Oct 14, 2007
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Alex_P post=18.71728.765217 said:
I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that could possibly be worse for America's economic well-being than shutting down half of the government on a whim.

-- Alex
Doing it with the belief you're doing the right thing.
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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Labyrinth post=18.71728.765226 said:
Alex_P post=18.71728.765217 said:
I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that could possibly be worse for America's economic well-being than shutting down half of the government on a whim.

-- Alex
Doing it with the belief you're doing the right thing.
Doing it with the belief you're doing what God wants you to do.
 

falcontwin

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Aug 10, 2008
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Jenny Creed post=18.71728.765254 said:
I predict Baraka will get a majority of the votes, but McCain will win the election.
Well in a country where the supreme court can stop a vote recount in the event of a mistake (just like they did when W got in) Anything is possible.
 

MarcusStrout

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Sep 20, 2008
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I'm going with the idea Eckhart Tolle and Mike O'Toole have for a president. The person should be experienced, but not flaunt it to his advantage, be kind, but not a pushover, and be direct, without being an asshole about it. As long as he had his stand on the issues, and held to them, no matter what they were, he should be as good a prez as any. He/she wouldn't even have to choose a party.
 

werepossum

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Alex_P post=18.71728.765217 said:
Hey, there. I'm resurrecting the thread because the debate was on today and there's a lot more to talk about...

Unless McCain just had an extraordinary bad day today (didn't look like it -- he was pretty animated and definitely held his own rhetorically) and he's never actually going to do any of the things he said he would do...

John McCain, if elected, is going to totally fuck the economy.

He actually said he would freeze nearly all government spending with the exception of defense, veterans' affairs, and unspecified "entitlements" (probably meaning social security, Medicare, &c.).

The stupidity of such a proposal is absolutely staggering. That he would even half-heartedly entertain such a notion on national TV means he has no freakin' idea what he's doing.

I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that could possibly be worse for America's economic well-being than shutting down half of the government on a whim.

-- Alex
When a politician says he is going to "freeze spending", he means at best to hold it at the current level, at worst to hold it at the current level plus an increase to cover inflation (i.e. to maintain the same level of benefits to the same number of people), NOT to stop spending altogether. If he means to stop spending altogether, he will promise to end that program or get rid of that department.

Consider two things. First, government programs run between 25% and 50% efficient, meaning that run between 25% and 50% of the money raised actually ends up going to the people or groups it is meant for. The balance of the money is spent paying people to raise the money (IRS), allocate the money, distribute the money, qualify people to receive the money, and audit the program to make sure no one is taking advantage of it illegally. (Military spending looks more efficient, but probably isn't because many weapons systems end up being canceled and almost every program has costs that should not be allowed.)

Second, the US government is funded almost entirely from two sources, personal income taxes and corporate income taxes. Corporations don't actually pay taxes - they usually pass them along to their customers as with any other expense. If foreign competition prevents a corporation from passing on its taxes as any other expense, then the cost of the taxes come out of its profits (in which case the stock value falls and a foreign competitor picks it up cheaply.) Therefore one way or another, everything our government spends is taken from someone.

This means that government is inherently less efficient at almost everything than the private sector. The only times that government spending is a net positive to the economy are when doing things that the private sector would not do (such as insuring people with known and expensive medical needs, or insuring non-hurricane resistant houses in hurricane zones) or when acting as a stimulant (such as borrowing and spending money when the private sector can't or won't because the business market is so bad.)

The corollary to this discrepancy in efficiency is that the bigger government grows, the less wealth a society can produce. The primary struggle on growing society's cumulative wealth (e.g. whether you afford to buy that new video game or drive an automobile rather than riding a bus) is in balancing the growth of government and regulation (bad for producing wealth, good for more evenly spreading that wealth) with the growth in productivity. Should the size (and therefore cost) of government grow faster than productivity, then the society produces less wealth per capita.

In other words, don't believe that government can make us all prosperous - it can't. The most government can do is control WHO is prosperous.
 

Beowulf DW

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Jul 12, 2008
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I heard of this one guy who had an interesting idea on taxes: a 24% (or something like that) sales tax.

Eliminate every other kind of tax, and place everything on sales tax. Although the things we purchase will be much more expensive, we'll have more money with which to purchase the items we need/want. This will also force organizations that find ways around taxes (i.e. the mophia) to pay taxes, because they need food and other essentials just like anyone else.

A bit radical, but I like this idea.
 

fulano

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Oct 14, 2007
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The corollary to this discrepancy in efficiency is that the bigger government grows, the less wealth a society can produce. The primary struggle on growing society's cumulative wealth (e.g. whether you afford to buy that new video game or drive an automobile rather than riding a bus) is in balancing the growth of government and regulation (bad for producing wealth, good for more evenly spreading that wealth) with the growth in productivity. Should the size (and therefore cost) of government grow faster than productivity, then the society produces less wealth per capita.
Those are statements and not arguments.

Before, You talked about governments being inherently inefficient at almost everything (a sad and broad overt generalization) when compared with the private sector, but when one in turn compares the current private healthcare system in the U.S spearheaded by HMO's against the socialized ones in the rest of Europe one can easily see your point fall apart. Can you really stand up and defend as more efficient a system as mis-representative as that one?

In other words, don't believe that government can make us all prosperous - it can't. The most government can do is control WHO is prosperous.
So, corporations running rampant like they have, paving the way for catastrophic economic crisis like the current one is much, much better?

Happily living in the world where you can concentrate power and influence in the few hands of business owners can't lead to anything good primarily because you are, in principle, centralizing the infrastructure of society; and because their aim is maximizing the profit of their group above anything else.

The private sector is run by people after all, just like the government. With the exception that a proper functioning government is supposed to, in principle, represent the bulk of the population and a private sector is, well, private.

Suddenly the private sector fucks up and the government along with the taxpayers money has to bail 'em out?

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor, huh?

Does that strike you as good deal?
 

werepossum

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Beowulf DW post=18.71728.767084 said:
I heard of this one guy who had an interesting idea on taxes: a 24% (or something like that) sales tax.

Eliminate every other kind of tax, and place everything on sales tax. Although the things we purchase will be much more expensive, we'll have more money with which to purchase the items we need/want. This will also force organizations that find ways around taxes (i.e. the mophia) to pay taxes, because they need food and other essentials just like anyone else.

A bit radical, but I like this idea.
There is a concept called the Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org I believe) which would replace all federal taxes (including Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid) with one retail sales tax. The problem with getting sales taxes passed is that the poor are still taxed. Accordingly, the Fair Tax pays each head of household a prebate based on the number of people in the household, the Fair Tax rate, and the current poverty level for a family of that number of people. In other words, if there are four people in your household, the current poverty level for a family of four is $2,000 monthly, and the current Fair Tax rate is 25%, then at the first of each month the head of household would receive a check (or more likely, an automatic deposit)for $500 to compensate you for the taxes your family will pay over the next month. If your family earns $2,000 per month (the poverty level for our family of four) then you pay no federal taxes whatsoever. If your family earns less than the poverty level then you pay no federal taxes plus you get a cash bonus (your $500 prebate less whatever taxes you actually paid) at the start of each month. If your family earns $4,000 per month then half your federal taxes are pre-paid. If your family earns $20,000 per month then 10% of your federal taxes are pre-paid. Thus the very rich would pay more IF they spend a good portion of their income or savings whilst the very poor (those at or below the poverty line) would pay NO federal taxes whatsoever. Only services and new purchases would be taxed.

There are several big advantages to this plan. First, the actual tax rate is there on every receipt. Second, everyone pays based on their spending, including illegal aliens, drug dealers, and those who live on inherited or saved wealth. Third, there would be no tax on investment income except when it is spent or taken out of the country, which would mean that the USA would rapidly become a huge center of investment worldwide. Fourth, savings be encouraged, not penalized. Fifth, Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid could not go broke; rather than being funded from a pilfered trust fund stuffed with IOUs, they would become just another government program (which they are already from the standpoint of payouts, just not from the standpoint of funding.) Six, the principle would be established that wealth belongs to he who earned it, with the government taking its cut when you spend your wealth (rather than the current standard where the government takes its cut first, like the Mafia, and you live on what they decide to leave you.) Seventh, the government would be unable to favor one group over another via the tax law; everyone would be equal. There would be no way to favor Company "A" over Company "B" via the tax code, as is currently common practice. Eighth, domestic companies and domestic production would be encouraged, rather than penalized as is now the case.

Of course, there are some potential downsides as well. First, although domestic goods would remain the same price overall (the new tax being equal to the old embedded taxes), imported goods would usually become more expensive, including both the Fair Tax sales tax and the producing country's corporate taxes if any.) Second, very poor working families with lots of children probably get more money now from Earned Income Credit, which has become another welfare program. Third, the Fair Tax currently depends on the assumption that your employer will give you that part of the cost of hiring you (matching Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid payments - your employer must pay the same amount as is held out of your check) as additional salary due to competition for good employees. Since some companies are in industries with a plethora of qualified potential employees, I think the law should mandate that the employee must be given the matching Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid payments. Fourth, Congress would be unable to promise to take money from one company, industry, or group and give it to another company, industry, or group. Removing much of the reason to lobby the government (by giving money to members of Congress) as well as the much of what Congress does each session (i.e. arguing and cutting deals over whom to favor with the next amendment to the current bill), members of Congress would find themselves with less campaign money, fewer corporate-funded vacations (sorry, fact-finding missions to Hawaii), fewer jobs for otherwise unemployable family members and mistresses from corporations seeking breaks in taxation and/or regulation, and a LOT more time on their hands, who knows what foolishness Congress might pass?
 

Beowulf DW

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Jul 12, 2008
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I wish you would have split that last paragraph in two. It took me a moment to pick up on the sarcasm.
 

werepossum

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unabomberman post=18.71728.767272 said:
The corollary to this discrepancy in efficiency is that the bigger government grows, the less wealth a society can produce. The primary struggle on growing society's cumulative wealth (e.g. whether you afford to buy that new video game or drive an automobile rather than riding a bus) is in balancing the growth of government and regulation (bad for producing wealth, good for more evenly spreading that wealth) with the growth in productivity. Should the size (and therefore cost) of government grow faster than productivity, then the society produces less wealth per capita.
Those are statements and not arguments.

Before, You talked about governments being inherently inefficient at almost everything (a sad and broad overt generalization) when compared with the private sector, but when one in turn compares the current private healthcare system in the U.S spearheaded by HMO's against the socialized ones in the rest of Europe one can easily see your point fall apart. Can you really stand up and defend as more efficient a system as mis-representative as that one?

In other words, don't believe that government can make us all prosperous - it can't. The most government can do is control WHO is prosperous.
So, corporations running rampant like they have, paving the way for catastrophic economic crisis like the current one is much, much better?

Happily living in the world where you can concentrate power and influence in the few hands of business owners can't lead to anything good primarily because you are, in principle, centralizing the infrastructure of society; and because their aim is maximizing the profit of their group above anything else.

The private sector is run by people after all, just like the government. With the exception that a proper functioning government is supposed to, in principle, represent the bulk of the population and a private sector is, well, private.

Suddenly the private sector fucks up and the government along with the taxpayers money has to bail 'em out?

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor, huh?

Does that strike you as good deal?
First, by making statements I frame my argument. It's probably not as intelligent or effective as saying "OMFG BUSH SUX!" or "Obama makes my nipples hard", but I try.

Second, the US health care system is by no means a free market. Today about half of every health care dollar comes from the government and the industry is extremely heavily regulated, so we have LONG since passed the point of making free market arguments about health care. I don't know what "a system as mis-representative as that one" means, but yes, the US health care system is still more efficient than, say, Medicare or Medicaid, our current two government health care systems. Please note that socializing medicine is not an attempt to improve overall efficiency, it's an attempt to ration a scarce resource more "fairly" by making health care at every level a fundamental right rather than any other resource. The most efficient health care system would be one totally without regulation. No wealthy country has such a system because we have an interest in seeing all citizens have access to health care at some level. Thus we trade efficiency for wider access.

Third, the government is "supposed to, in principle, represent the bulk of the population" whilst the private sector IS the bulk of the population.

Fourth, the main objective of elected officials is to gain and maintain power; the main objective of the free market is to become filthy rich. One of these two sectors has the ability to lawfully MAKE me use their products and services; the other must ENTICE me to use their products and services. I know which I prefer. If you would prefer being forced to being enticed, it's a free country.

Fifth, I am in no way in favor of a bailout of the housing or financial markets. I think they should force the executives to return the bonuses they obtained by cooking the books AND fine and/or imprison the executives that cooked those books, to include everyone high enough to receive a bonus and in the train of stating earnings and holdings and subsequently re-stating them after the bonuses have been handed out. A big part of our current problem is our increasing socialization - once companies reach a certain size and buy a certain amount of influence in Congress they think they are free to speculate and take insanely risk investments, reaping great profits whilst government (A.K.A. taxpayers) bail them out if those risky investments don't pay off. We need to show large corporations that Uncle Sam will NOT bail them out and that executives who run companies into the ground will not be allowed to accept tens of millions rather than the hundreds of millions they would have received had those risky investments paid off.

Sixth, if any of these companies are truly too big to be allowed to fail as is commonly being said, then they should immediately be split up into smaller parts and never again allowed to become so big.

Too many people - especially the very young and those without skills in demand - see capitalism as some sort of ravenous beast. Capitalism is the system of trading something you value less for something you value more. A government bureaucrat makes the same amount of money whether you leave happy or pissed of, because government goods and services are largely monopolies. If your package didn't reach its destination, the guy at the post office isn't going to get very excited; it just doesn't affect his life much either way. The guy at UPS is going to bust his ass trying to find that package and get it to its proper destination because next time you might go to FedEx or DHL. Customers leaving UPS has a direct impact on his life because if business drops he may well be out of a job, whereas if business is doing well he might be in line for a raise and a promotion.
 

Gerafin

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May 8, 2008
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Here's my opinion.

In the US, we put too much emphasis on the presidential election. I recognize the powers that the prez has, but in comparison to the Senate and House of Representatives, s/he's a figurehead who wouldn't dare go ahead without the support of the majority of his/her party. Somehow we've been coerced into believing that the extent of our political powers is limited to casting a single vote in the presidential election. I thought the people had the power. When something inexcusable is done by the administration, change it! Call your senators, your state representatives. Get involved. Their job is to listen to their constituents- YOU!

Obama is all about change, but inside I know that there will be hardly any difference in this country, he's too skittish and non-confrontational for real change. McCain represents bad policies and bad politics.

I'm supporting Brian Moore for president, but what I really want to see is US citizens realizing their potential and taking an active role in the political process. The politicians can't really change anything- real change can only be created when it is started within the masses.
 

TomNook

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Feb 21, 2008
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Knight Templar post=18.71728.748965 said:
TomNook post=18.71728.742487 said:
Knight Templar post=18.71728.742233 said:
There is zero reason to pick Palin apart from making a jump around the monkey cage.

One could say the same thing of Obama.
I get what you mean but Obama was picked because of what he stands for and his likeablity(?). Palin was picked to get attention and draw in the far far right, big diffrence.
No, Palin was picked to draw in the really hardcore Clintons who think Obama is the spawn of Cruella DeVille and Sauron. At this point they all stand for "change."
 
Feb 13, 2008
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On Republicans:

One Republican stated his reason for not endorsing the rescue package created by Bush was that "It would make us more socialist."

Still better dead than Red then?

Palin was chosen for the MILF vote.
 

werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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The_root_of_all_evil post=18.71728.776332 said:
On Republicans:

One Republican stated his reason for not endorsing the rescue package created by Bush was that "It would make us more socialist."

Still better dead than Red then?
Not spending $700,000,000,000 (as a start) to save rich people from the results of their own greed is not likely to be fatal. (Don't get me wrong, I like rich people just fine. Every job I've ever had has been working for a rich person, except as a teenager when I worked for my father and for various small farmers. But I don't want to support 'em.)

Has everyone noticed that McCain is on the wrong side (i.e. the government buying the bad loans to allow the CEOs to get back to making bonuses) whilst Obama has voted "Present" again? We are well and truly screwed.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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werepossum post=18.71728.776357 said:
Not spending $700,000,000,000 (as a start) to save rich people from the results of their own greed is not likely to be fatal.
It's likely to seriously hurt those workers in Fanny Mae, Johnny Mac, Bradford and Bingley, Northern Rock, Halifax, Bank of Scotland etc. though.
 

werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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The_root_of_all_evil post=18.71728.776398 said:
werepossum post=18.71728.776357 said:
Not spending $700,000,000,000 (as a start) to save rich people from the results of their own greed is not likely to be fatal.
It's likely to seriously hurt those workers in Fanny Mae, Johnny Mac, Bradford and Bingley, Northern Rock, Halifax, Bank of Scotland etc. though.
Yes, and I agree a bailout is required, preferably with loans. But the first thing to do is stop the digging. Bush's plan is to finance more digging. The Democrat plan is to finance more digging, bail out union pension funds, finance ACORN to make up more imaginary people, and spank the supervisors and send them to bed without their suppers. The House Republican plan is to loan the GSEs enough money to meet payroll and hope holes come back into fashion. I'm hoping we can change the direction of the digging from straight down to something more profitable, then adopt the House Republican plan's loans to meet payroll with the Democrat plan's supervisor treatment. If that's not too much digging analogy to make sense.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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I think the first thing to do is restore public confidence, because that's why the American economy is still spiralling. The British public, in their usual way, are just saying "Ah, the Government's being crap again.".