Poll: USA Invaded...by whom?

[demoman_chaos]

A Japanese commander in WWII once remarked something close to, "If we invade the US mainland, there will be a gun behind every blade of grass."

Which is true, especially in the southern states like Alabama and Georgia. My house alone has 3 rifles, 2 shotguns, and 4 or 5 handguns running around (not counting my collection of swords and knives). The southern folks are so "patriotic" they likely would never surrender.
It amuses me they say they'd never let any foreigners take over the US, but wonder why people in the Middle East are fighting the foreign invaders.

 

[vxicepickxv]

Civil war, and you cannot win that one.

Bingo, that's where it's going to come from. Not from without, but from within.

 

[kickassfrog]

I've seen it argued (here on the Escapist and out in the real world) that the USA would be the hardest country to invade, and heard some people use this claim as a defense of second amendment rights. I couldn't help thinking at the time "Well who the hell would bother trying to invade the US anyway, even assuming civilians didn't have any guns?"

Now, I don't want this to turn too much in a debate over gun laws; there are plenty of other forums to do that. But I'd like to address this issue just the same. After all, loads of video games, movies and books feature this very scenario. So just how likely is it? What forces will drive and or prevent it? Who will the invaders be/definitely not be? Would an armed resistance from civilians help thwart a invading force, or would a population with no history of invasion and no prolonged conflict inside our borders for a hundred a fifty years leave us so unprepared that we would quickly crumble under the realities of war?

If you think we might be invaded, list the most likely suspects. If you think we won't, list the reason why not. Then, just for the hell of it, tell us how you see it playing out if it did happen. Hopefully by the end of the forum, we'll have the premise for 2013's big blockbuster.

Edit: Fixed the poll so there's an option that the an invasion could happen and an armed population would not make a difference; not sure what happened for, thought I had included it.

Actually, switzerland would be harder to invade according to TV tropes.
And here's what it says:
And let's not forget Switzerland. Yes, eternally neutral. Good bankers and watchmakers. Want to stomp on them? Feel like walking into a small, mountainous region where every able-bodied male is conscripted into the military when they turn eighteen, serves until the age of thirty (sure, it's only three weeks a year, not unlike the National Guard, but still), and is required to keep an assault rifle and 50 rounds in his house at all times? Many choose to retain their service weapons as hunting rifles as well... About the only thing dumber than an invasion of Switzerland would be starting a land war in Asia.
There's an old story about Hermann Goering meeting with a Swiss official, when Nazi Germany was kicking everyone's ass, and asking what the Swiss would do if Germany decided to invade. Upon being told they could have 500,000 men mobilized within 24 hours, he then asked what would happen if Germany decided to invade with a million men. The response? "We'd shoot twice."
The Swiss have prepared and pre-surveyed defensive plans to protect every pass and tunnel usable as an invasion route, and also have a 220,000 man standing army. This is before they recall every able-bodied adult in the country into active service, remember.
Also, the mountains are nearly hollow because of the huge military installations hid within. Some of the bunkers even use small fake houses and huts as a disguise for the entry.
Swiss Mercenaries, meanwhile, were once so feared that a treaty specifically prevented them from being used in anyone's army. The treaty was signed more than one hundred years ago. It is still the law all over the world. Those are some scary mofos. And they also make great chocolate.
Let's put it this way, before it being abolished, the Swiss main export was their mercenaries.
Except for the Vatican. The Swiss Guard is, well, Swiss. And they do have guns, though ceremonial pikes are a lot less scary for the tourists.
Oh they have guns (they hide them in their silly outfits)
During WWII, Mussolini planned the invasion of Switzerland, figuring out that such a small country couldn't defend itself. Not only Switzerland had a multi-layered defensive line with bunkers, trenches, strongpoints and artillery lookouts deep enough to stop pretty much any contemporary army, but they were so paranoid that they dismantled it, finally convinced that they were not going to be invaded, only in 1970!
In the game Diplomacy and some of its ilk, it is often downright impossible to invade Switzerland. Not just hard? you're simply not allowed do it, even if you've already conquered the rest of the world.

 

[vrbtny]

I've seen it argued (here on the Escapist and out in the real world) that the USA would be the hardest country to invade, and heard some people use this claim as a defense of second amendment rights. I couldn't help thinking at the time "Well who the hell would bother trying to invade the US anyway, even assuming civilians didn't have any guns?"

Now, I don't want this to turn too much in a debate over gun laws; there are plenty of other forums to do that. But I'd like to address this issue just the same. After all, loads of video games, movies and books feature this very scenario. So just how likely is it? What forces will drive and or prevent it? Who will the invaders be/definitely not be? Would an armed resistance from civilians help thwart a invading force, or would a population with no history of invasion and no prolonged conflict inside our borders for a hundred a fifty years leave us so unprepared that we would quickly crumble under the realities of war?

If you think we might be invaded, list the most likely suspects. If you think we won't, list the reason why not. Then, just for the hell of it, tell us how you see it playing out if it did happen. Hopefully by the end of the forum, we'll have the premise for 2013's big blockbuster.

Edit: Fixed the poll so there's an option that the an invasion could happen and an armed population would not make a difference; not sure what happened for, thought I had included it.

*Snip*

If you've conquered the rest of the world, Couldn't you-

Scratch that idea, I got a simpler one.

Just melt all the snow in Switzerland. Problem solved.

 

[kickassfrog]

If a country does manage to invade the U.S., the U.S. is probably screwed. The reason is because the generals in the U.S. Military are rather incompetent. They forgo the tried, true, and smart tactics outlined in Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" that were used by them as recently as WWII. Why do you think they're failing in Afghanistan? It's not the troops. It's the generals. No amount of armed civilians, high tech weapons, or numbers can make up for incompetence in the highest ranks of command.

can you give an example how incompetent they are, please?

Actually, it isn't even necessarily incompetence. The vietcong kicked the ass of the french forces, and did a hell of a lot of damage even to the american troops.

The fact is, invading somewhere is no guarantee of actually conquering it, if the civilians take it upon themselves to murder every occupying soldier they get their hands on, it's bloody difficult to pick out the troublemakers.


It would be far easier to just nuke the USA and claim ownership of the resultant pile of slag. But then they would nuke you. That's why you go live in switzerland or australia, or canada. Neutral, defensible (switzerland, anyway, the others can just let nature kill off an invading army), and preferably with little to no strategic value or natural resources.

Also, australians are criminals, so you have an effective guerilla army right there.

 

[kickassfrog]

I've seen it argued (here on the Escapist and out in the real world) that the USA would be the hardest country to invade, and heard some people use this claim as a defense of second amendment rights. I couldn't help thinking at the time "Well who the hell would bother trying to invade the US anyway, even assuming civilians didn't have any guns?"

Now, I don't want this to turn too much in a debate over gun laws; there are plenty of other forums to do that. But I'd like to address this issue just the same. After all, loads of video games, movies and books feature this very scenario. So just how likely is it? What forces will drive and or prevent it? Who will the invaders be/definitely not be? Would an armed resistance from civilians help thwart a invading force, or would a population with no history of invasion and no prolonged conflict inside our borders for a hundred a fifty years leave us so unprepared that we would quickly crumble under the realities of war?

If you think we might be invaded, list the most likely suspects. If you think we won't, list the reason why not. Then, just for the hell of it, tell us how you see it playing out if it did happen. Hopefully by the end of the forum, we'll have the premise for 2013's big blockbuster.

Edit: Fixed the poll so there's an option that the an invasion could happen and an armed population would not make a difference; not sure what happened for, thought I had included it.

*Snip*

If you've conquered the rest of the world, Couldn't you-

Scratch that idea, I got a simpler one.

Just melt all the snow in Switzerland. Problem solved.

That would only solve the problem if snowballs were their primary weapon

 

[wicket42]

They don't need to be invaded. China already bought them!

 

[fiskefyren]

I'm not really sure who would invade the US... well beside everyone that hates em? But atm. I guess most are clever enough to know that they would never be able to win a one on one war with the US, but on the other hand i see another possibility for the US being invade.

If China at some point said "f*** the us" and then stopped selling/making goods for em, the US would be royally fucked (mind my French), do you people have any idea how depending the US is on China? Most of everything the US makes is made in China, so if they decided to ditch the US and just wait a bit then the US could collapse in on itself with its then completely dead economy. then the US would be as weak as a little baby seal and then even Holland would be able to invade the US xD

The only reasons the US is so "safe" as it is atm. is because everyone is ass kissing them... the USA would lose against a military alliance of "China, Russia, North and South Korea." alone, no contest and even more so if china no longer saves their poor already dying market.

and a nuclear war no one would win, so let's leave that one out of consideration

 

[Greatjusticeman]

As of now it is impossible for the United States to be invaded by an hostile armed force.


We have the best navy and air force in the world. Two things you need when landing troops on someone else's land.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

I'm not voting until you have a poll option of "Wait, seriously? How are you even asking this question?"

The United States won't be invaded, for pretty much every possible reason.

-It's way too big to hold.

-Our citizens have guns.

-No one with the resources to invade hates us enough to do so.

-Even if they did, it would probably be the costliest war (in terms of lives lost and money spent) in the history of ever.

-We have nukes, and the second-largest and best funded military on the planet.

-Other countries simply wouldn't stand for it. As a primary western super power, we are vital to the global economy, and to just about everything else with "global" in the description.


I could go on, but I think you get it. The answer is "not happening".

Seeing how many Americans shoot, I can safely say that armed citizens mean exactly dick to professional soldiers.

Not discounting the rest of your points, but you should never underestimate the potential of a vast, poorly-trained force of nationalistic nutjobs to endlessly frustrate the efforts of a superior force. I mean, we made that mistake in Vietnam, as well as in Afghanistan for about the first six years of the war, and look where that got us.

 

[matoasters]

An armed populace is not necessarily a trained populace, and most of the "armed" people in the U.S. would probably get themselves killed pretty quick. After that there would probably be a few resistance movements, but they wouldn't repel the invasion, they would be a slow and steady drain on resources until a larger power stepped in to repel the invaders.

 

[jumjalalabash]

Not sure why anyone would want to invade us. Nothing really gained from an invasion or even conquering aside from being able to say you took it. Its too big of a mess to bother dealing with.

 

[SilentCom]

Who would invade America? Why America of course!

 

[Jacco]

snip

You can have all the weapons you want, but if no one knows how to use them or has the organization mount a defense, it'll just be hillbillies taking potshots at enemy troops. Despite what movies like Red Dawn would like you to believe, high school kids could not take on trained soldiers.
Just look at the kill ratio for Iraq and Afghanistan. In 10 years of occupation, we've lost just under 5000 soldiers compared to the estimated 150,000 - 200,000 the insurgents have lost. Even in Vietnam, the ratio was something asinine like 20 to 1.

That being said, in this day and age with satellite and SOSUS systems, it would be utterly impossible for an earth based force to mount a surprise attack. The logistics involved in moving an army into position (including tanks, planes, boots, helicopters, etc) are astronomical. It wouldn't even take spy satellites to see it. Even Google would know about it before they were even on the move.

On top of THAT, the United States is bordered on two of it's three sides by very large oceans. Moving enough troops to mount an effective invasion over that much area takes time and not only allows the military to set up defensive positions to repel the invasion, it also gives us a grand opportunity to attack them. All you have to do sink the transport ships and instantly they've lost 1000 foot soldiers. Sink and aircraft carrier, and they've lost air support. That's why it was so imperative to follow the "island hopping" campaign in WWII. You need staging areas and places to refuel aircraft and put troops. Coming down through Canada wouldn't work because the Canadians are hardly going to let them march on through and would bog them down long enough for us to mobilize and help the Canadian's before they even even reach the US border. Mexico would be equally unwanted because along the border, there is nothing of strategic value. It is all desert and without the constact supply of goods via the interstate system, there would be nothing to live off of without creating a very complex and fragile supply line.

To even add more to that, there is nothing of value in the US to warrant an invasion in the first place. Unless there was a war going on like the second world war in which the goal was to capture the capital and dismantle the government, there would be no reason to land troops.

All of that comes into play LONG before an armed population even gets looked at.