TiefBlau said:
You seem to be arguing that classification is what bars certain brands of horror in which the West is superior, so here's a very simple rule of thumb: If it isn't scary, it isn't horror.
Now, you can label this with a variety of extenuating circumstances like culture clashes, familiarity, etc. But the fact is that it can be critiqued beyond borders, and the general trend is that Japanese horror is oftentimes better.
(Not entirely sure which of the two that was specifically aimed at, however...) If you look at my longer post earlier in the forum, you will see that I don't intend to bar Western or Eastern horror, mainly because I see both as being validly scary to both audiences in differing circumstances and for differing reasons. If you look further at my conversation with oplinger, neither of us mentioned Japan at all, and the theoretical nature of my
hypothetical example for oplinger to see if that situation in a video game or movie would be scary for him unfortunately bars
any country's videogames or movies, excepting the provision of an example. If you have an example of any videogame or movie that satisfies the conditions of that example, that would be most welcome as it could be suggested to oplinger and help to further our discussion.
I do see a problem with the classification of "If it isn't scary, it isn't horror" in that it becomes entirely subjective socially, culturally, and in the case of oplinger definitely, personally, sometimes to the point that a discussion of this nature can't be had.
I do agree that it can be critiqued beyond borders, but that is specifically where the "which is better" discussion breaks down. Certainly recently, a lot of the best (in the West) horror movies have come from Japan, or been remade from Japanese films, but as far as games, there are many other countries whose games rate top-tier in horror. That being said, many recent horror movies from America are actually very popular overseas, despite the abundance of gore that doesn't scare or satisfy many American movie-goers. In the West, as I imagine you would agree, the fantastic is quickly becoming cliche, especially in America where most games focus on shooting and most recent movies on gore and drama, while the cultural motifs of Japanese horror that are familiar in Japan, are strange enough to entice and scare in your country. But still, as an overall look at the medium, there are few that compete with minds like Hitchcock, outdated though the technology appears now (seriously... watch "The Birds" and just lose yourself there for a moment. Also consider that bird attacks are something that certain areas of the world have to deal with regularly). As for the medium of videogames, I would look more towards smaller studios rather than AAA from any country for immersive horror experiences. The original Silent Hill series, Fatal Frame, the early successes in the medium that did come from Japan, had their run, and now the playing field is evening out (except for AAA America. I mean, really...). Still, it all comes down to subjectivity and personal views.
That being said, looking at another, earlier post, you will note that one of my most immersive and scary horror experiences with a game was not even with a game anyone would classify as horror, even with the broadest of definitions, and with a game most would say wasn't even good.
oplinger said:
So...no examples. That's why I asked, I can't think of anything that fit the bill of "down to earth horror" in that it's believable.
Crime Drama is called "Drama" for a reason. If it's based on real events, they're skewed way out of proportion to be more entertaining. Things are changed to be more scary or shocking (mostly shocking.) They fit more into the "thriller" genre. Which is suspenseful, but not scary. Horror usually tries to evoke disgust, or startle the viewer/player. Which even so isn't really horror by the definition of the word.
Sadly though you're right. Having an exploitable weakness is what makes horror scary. I have to scare me. You can't.
That's why I believe films and video games cannot be scary. The scare is up to you, they just try to make you scare yourself. Tense moments, jump scares, anything to keep you on edge, so that you think about it, slowly whittle away at your own self-security, slowly moving into paranoia as you check dark corners for murderous demons and serial killers. But as you're in no real danger, they are completely incapable of being scary by themselves. That's what makes horror a terrible yet amazing genre. It's different for everybody.
I do agree with the last part that the sheer personal level of horror is what makes it horrible to some and great to others.
Personally for me, a good horror is anything where I can put my self in and lose myself in the experience, where the terrors are constant, rather than sudden and jumpy, the fear and insecurity of what is around the next corner is more scary than the actual terror lurking there. I used to act for much of school, and I still do story-telling. I personally find the best horror is the kind you make for yourself out of the materials given, especially if you start by acting like the character in the story. Especially for story-telling or videogames, it ends up being a white-knuckled, entertaining experience for all involved... usually.
I offer a small, possible solution, in an analysis of the conversation thus far. Perhaps, its not as much a problem with suspending disbelief as much as a problem with connecting to the character. If you can separate yourself from you for a short while, a lot of games or movies become scary, even if they are not horror. Perhaps the best for this would instead of regular, fantasy horror, or serial killer horror, maybe be psychological horror, and games would definitely be better than film (since the interactivity already requires some degree of immersion). This is only a suggestion though, take it with a grain of salt.
That being said, what is the closest a game or movie, or even book, has come to scaring you (or helping you scare yourself)?
In a different vein, can you think of a film or game that isn't horror, but could be if told from a different perspective? For me, it'd be "The Professional" from the perspective of only the dirty DEA cops.
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