Poll: Was ME1 really as good as we remember or was Saren just an idiot antagonist?

[Geo Da Sponge]

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Well derpy hooves, isnt it ironic that your description is exactly what happens at the end of the game, minus saren still being a spectre.

Well yes, except then he set himself up to use the Conduit to arrive smack-bang in the middle of the Presidium right at the foot of the Council tower, allowing him to reach the main control system, undo the fiddling that the Protheans had done and hand over control to Soveriegn/himself. This allowed him to stop the Citadel being closed before Sovereign reached where it needed to be.

which he could have done anyways if he hadnt attacked Eden Prime, the fucking Council believed every word he said, he could have just come up and said, I need you all to evactuate, I fear someone may have planted us a bomb


So I'm saying that yes, Saren did need to do all the stuff that he does to research the Protheans and find the Conduit or else the assault on the Citadel would've ended with Sovereign tapping on the outside of the Citadel and still unable to control it. A purely direct assault would not have worked or would at best have been very risky, and anything involving Sovereign getting anywhere near the Citadel would result in an all-out battle.

the only reason he needed to do all that shit was because we needed an excuse for a game, Sarens need to do the idiot thing and attack eden prime is retarded.

...Seriously? You think they'd evacuate the entire Citadel and then take their fleet and leave the entire sub-system because Saren said they should?

He's a secret agent, not God. There is no way to smuggle an 8kn ship to the Citadel; a full on attack which didn't involve a secondary sneak attack would fail. And the Conduit was the only way to instantly insert a force large enough to take the Council Tower and then hold it long enough for Sovereign to do his thing. He can't just bluff his way in with a whole horde of Geth behind him. And as for getting the council chambers evacuated while Saren sneaks in alone, that sounds incredibly risky, especially since they'd probably see him on security cameras and wonder what he's doing in there. And then you're expecting him to hold off all of C-Sec for as long as Sovereign needs.

And this is ignoring the fact that without doing all the background research that Saren needs the length of the game to do he may not have even been able to undo the Prothean fiddling at all. Saren's search has two purposes: One, find a way to reverse the work the Protheans did on the Citadel. Two, find a tactically viable way to disable the Citadel's biggest defence (ie. disable the closing arms from the inside).

 

[boag]

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Well derpy hooves, isnt it ironic that your description is exactly what happens at the end of the game, minus saren still being a spectre.

Well yes, except then he set himself up to use the Conduit to arrive smack-bang in the middle of the Presidium right at the foot of the Council tower, allowing him to reach the main control system, undo the fiddling that the Protheans had done and hand over control to Soveriegn/himself. This allowed him to stop the Citadel being closed before Sovereign reached where it needed to be.

which he could have done anyways if he hadnt attacked Eden Prime, the fucking Council believed every word he said, he could have just come up and said, I need you all to evactuate, I fear someone may have planted us a bomb


So I'm saying that yes, Saren did need to do all the stuff that he does to research the Protheans and find the Conduit or else the assault on the Citadel would've ended with Sovereign tapping on the outside of the Citadel and still unable to control it. A purely direct assault would not have worked or would at best have been very risky, and anything involving Sovereign getting anywhere near the Citadel would result in an all-out battle.

the only reason he needed to do all that shit was because we needed an excuse for a game, Sarens need to do the idiot thing and attack eden prime is retarded.

...Seriously? You think they'd evacuate the entire Citadel and then take their fleet and leave the entire sub-system because Saren said they should?

He's a secret agent, not God. There is no way to smuggle an 8kn ship to the Citadel; a full on attack which didn't involve a secondary sneak attack would fail. And the Conduit was the only way to instantly insert a force large enough to take the Council Tower and then hold it long enough for Sovereign to do his thing. He can't just bluff his way in with a whole horde of Geth behind him. And as for getting the council chambers evacuated while Saren sneaks in alone, that sounds incredibly risky, especially since they'd probably see him on security cameras and wonder what he's doing in there. And then you're expecting him to hold off all of C-Sec for as long as Sovereign needs.

And this is ignoring the fact that without doing all the background research that Saren needs the length of the game to do he may not have even been able to undo the Prothean fiddling at all. Saren's search has two purposes: One, find a way to reverse the work the Protheans did on the Citadel. Two, find a tactically viable way to disable the Citadel's biggest defence (ie. disable the closing arms from the inside).

1.- No not the entire citadel, just the Council Tower.

2.- He didnt need to smuggle the fucking ship, he just needed to land with it and say, tis cool its mine, im a fucking spectre.

3A.- Assuming he knew what the conduit was, he could have easily smuggle Geth onboard Sovereign.

3B.- Assuming he didnt know what the conduit was, he just said FUCK IT and attack the Citadel Anyways with the large fucking force, like you keep saying he wouldnt be able to do.

4.- Dont be obtuse, He is a Spectre, he wouldnt need to go sneaking around, he could have told the council, I believe this place is booby trapped, i need you out for a couple of hours while I do some investigating, the Council was already sucking down his cock for the most of the game and willing to believe anything he said.

5.-Yeah about the Prothean Fiddling, Im sure Vigil didnt tell Saren fuck all about it, Saren only knew what Sovereign did, that Soverign sent the signal to activate the citadel and the keepers ignored him. Hell im Pretty sure Saren died Ignorant of the fact.


so yeah, your conclusion points are irrelevant and serve no purpose to give an honest not stupid reason why Saren Attacked Eden Prime, Saren was an idiot, now you know, get over it.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

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Well derpy hooves, isnt it ironic that your description is exactly what happens at the end of the game, minus saren still being a spectre.

Well yes, except then he set himself up to use the Conduit to arrive smack-bang in the middle of the Presidium right at the foot of the Council tower, allowing him to reach the main control system, undo the fiddling that the Protheans had done and hand over control to Soveriegn/himself. This allowed him to stop the Citadel being closed before Sovereign reached where it needed to be.

which he could have done anyways if he hadnt attacked Eden Prime, the fucking Council believed every word he said, he could have just come up and said, I need you all to evactuate, I fear someone may have planted us a bomb


So I'm saying that yes, Saren did need to do all the stuff that he does to research the Protheans and find the Conduit or else the assault on the Citadel would've ended with Sovereign tapping on the outside of the Citadel and still unable to control it. A purely direct assault would not have worked or would at best have been very risky, and anything involving Sovereign getting anywhere near the Citadel would result in an all-out battle.

the only reason he needed to do all that shit was because we needed an excuse for a game, Sarens need to do the idiot thing and attack eden prime is retarded.

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1.- No not the entire citadel, just the Council Tower.

2.- He didnt need to smuggle the fucking ship, he just needed to land with it and say, tis cool its mine, im a fucking spectre.

3A.- Assuming he knew what the conduit was, he could have easily smuggle Geth onboard Sovereign.

3B.- Assuming he didnt know what the conduit was, he just said FUCK IT and attack the Citadel Anyways with the large fucking force, like you keep saying he wouldnt be able to do.

4.- Dont be obtuse, He is a Spectre, he wouldnt need to go sneaking around, he could have told the council, I believe this place is booby trapped, i need you out for a couple of hours while I do some investigating, the Council was already sucking down his cock for the most of the game and willing to believe anything he said.

5.-Yeah about the Prothean Fiddling, Im sure Vigil didnt tell Saren fuck all about it, Saren only knew what Sovereign did, that Soverign sent the signal to activate the citadel and the keepers ignored him. Hell im Pretty sure Saren died Ignorant of the fact.


so yeah, your conclusion points are irrelevant and serve no purpose to give an honest not stupid reason why Saren Attacked Eden Prime, Saren was an idiot, now you know, get over it.

Ahh, the old 'get over it because I'm inherently right' argument. Look, I'm going to shrink down the argument over the specific points you made since while I think you're still wrong they're not really relevant.

Spoiler: Debating your points

1. So if they're not off the Citadel entirely, what happens when they can quite clearly see what he's doing via security cameras?

2. Again, do you really think they wouldn't be at all confused by him showing up in a ship on a ship that is larger than their most powerful dreadnaught, of a design that is completely differnt from anything produced by any (friendly) sentient species? This is like if a CIA agent turned up on a vast aircraft carrier without any kind of explanation of who built it or why he has it. No amount of secret agent benefits will stop people from questioning where you got a ship that big from. Even when you tell the council that Saren has slighty more resources at his disposal than was previously thought they scoff at you, why wouldn't they react to the largest ship ever seen?

3A. Sovereign, the ship that they wouldn't let anywhere near the Citadel without a damn good explanation.

3B. Even if he smashed his way through the Citadel fleet, which it's fair to say he could've, they would've closed the Citadel arms in his face. In fact, they specifically say in the cutscene that they can't close the arms remotely because Saren has already taken over from the central control point inside the council tower.

4. And when they look at their monitors to the security system and see that he's not defusing a bomb, but is instead fiddling around on the control system, what then? They wouldn't just clear out and stop paying attention, you'd have security teams, bomb experts, all of them huddled around wondering why he's not touching anything that looks vaguely bomb like, or whatever other excuse he decides to use. Spectre status grants you freedom from red tape, not unquestioning loyalty from the council. I mean, Saren was declared rogue over a shorrt recording, how well do you think it would go if he lied his way into the council chambers and they could see that he wasn't doing what he said he was?

5. So if he didn't know that the Protheans had meddled, why was he going after a Prothean beacon? Because he's stupid? That's not a reason. Sovereign must have figured out that the Protheans knew more than he thought. I'm sorry, but in a choice between 'The bad guy knew something that wasn't explicitly mentioned to the audience' and 'The bad guy did something completely irrelevant for no logical reason' I go for the first one.

No, what's relevant is that your proposed plan involves a lot of risks. What if the council didn't buy it? What if figuring out the controls without the research is harder than he thinks? Why would Sovereign put the fate of the entire Reaper cycle in the hands of one Turian, and hope he got it right? His plan involving the Conduit only failed because he was the victim of terrible luck; the Normandy being so close to Eden Prime at just the wrong moment, Shepard being the one to see the Prothean vision, a random Quarian pilgrim getting her hands on some evidence, the Council's decision to make Shepard a Spectre (something that Saren would never have seen coming). That may mean that the plot of the game is rather contrived, but it doesn't make Saren's plan worse when it only failed due to a massive long shot. Heck, how was he to know that the one small team assigned to investigate him would be able to fight it's way through dozens of Krogans, Geth and Asari commandos?

Your plan would mean that Sovereign would have to forgo a patient, methodical approach that involved careful planning and research in favour of just taking a roll of the dice and hoping that Saren could make it work without fucking up. That doesn't seem like how a Reaper would do things. Or another thing: if Sovereign hadn't bothered to investigate the Conduit and the other Prothean relics then they would've still been around for the next cycle, giving the next group of sentient life another chance to beat the Reapers.