Poll: WH40K MMO, can it be done and not throw me into murderous rage?

[Ultrajoe]

You are a guardsman, you're lasgun clutched to your chest, you hurl a frag grenade over the lip of your dugout, scream an incoherent warble of rage and then take a Bolter round to the chest.

Your chest cavity explodes, internal organs splatter the countryside and all the carapace armor, training and experience points in the world cannot save you.

This is a WH40K MMO, where space marines are space marines, and guardsman blood bags waiting for a Bolter or chains-word to end you.

You see, for some time now whispers have echoed about of a 40K MMO, and i have several issues with this, which i have summed up into 3 sequential points.

1) Race interaction: A space marine will beat almost any other 1 wound infantry in the game, its a damn fact, if you can choose from any of the games many races, how will they be balanced? power rigging? can an Alpha Legion Chaos marine be taken down by a conscript? If so, there is only one conclusion

MURDEROUS RAGE! DONT MESS WITH THE POWER LEVELS MAN!

2) So say they try to appease me, and do not balance power levels, they have 2 choices, give me weak-bag guardsmen, or only have space marines, chaos and orcs, and other guys who fit that power level. The result?

MURDEROUS RAGE! IVE PLAYED TYRANIDS FOR YEARS, I WILL HAVE THEM DAMNIT, AND WHAT ABOUT THE GUARD FANS?

3) they solve these problems by screwing with the fluff (like lore or flavor in Warcraft or Magic)... results?

MURDEROUS RAGE, I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR MAKING SOMEONE ABLE TO OUTSHOOT TAU! (classes are a new bag of fish entirely, tau cannot close combat!, tyranids cannot shoot)

so you can see my dilemma escapists, how can they keep the 40K universe balanced and the fluff intact? how? HOOOOOWWWWW???

As a Tyranids player, the fact that the MMO will most likely include the bugs as MOBS only makes me cry a bit... alot... i haven't stopped in weeks... months.

so share your thoughts, how will they pull it off? or will they crash and burn?

 

[Logan Westbrook]

You are a guardsman, you're lasgun clutched to your chest, you hurl a frag grenade over the lip of your dugout, scream an incoherent warble of rage and then take a Bolter round to the chest.

Your chest cavity explodes, internal organs splatter the countryside and all the carapace armor, training and experience points in the world cannot save you.

Actually, that sounds more like a Warhammer 40K FPS than an MMO.

 

[JakubK666]

Yes and No. 40K Universe is just too big to get it balanced.At least not in a way that wouldn't piss off anybody who even remotely knows Warhammer rules/lore.

 

[Ultrajoe]

You are a guardsman, you're lasgun clutched to your chest, you hurl a frag grenade over the lip of your dugout, scream an incoherent warble of rage and then take a Bolter round to the chest.

Your chest cavity explodes, internal organs splatter the countryside and all the carapace armor, training and experience points in the world cannot save you.

Actually, that sounds more like a Warhammer 40K FPS than an MMO.

fair enough, im still waiting for a decent 40K FPS though, id love a trench warfare style guardsman one... or a Marine one, where you fight alongside NPC's against hordes of foes, a bit like Halo but more battlefield style than a path style.

 

[Saskwach]

There was a similar thread some months ago where we debated the possibilities of Battlefield 40k. In the end, the only satisfying conclusion that would dodge all the problems you've outlined is to give extra AI squadmates to the weaker 40k races. So a single guardsman would get a few guardsmen and the game would become a bit like a tactical shooter, while a SM would be by himself but would play a supersoldier FPS game. The weaker races would still probably have to be played by more careful players but it could work.

 

[cainx10a]

From my limited experience with the W40K RTS series for PC (I never had the opportunity to play the real game), I would say it is slightly possible; The imperium of man consists of both Space Marines and Imperial Guards, so having these two pitched against each other is sort of pointless, at least, for the back story to be used in the a W40K MMO, additonally, I believe that other races might be allied together in some sort of not-so-friendly alliance to balance off this whole cesspool of races.

I think by now, the whole alliance thing might get some W40k purists on the edge, I admit that doesn't reflect the W40K universe, but for gameplay sake, it is safe to say that's the best way to balance off the game.

 

[ccjav]

hmmm

i could be possibly done if all pvp was done with points like the real game...
in other words, assuming we have four players playing as chaos night lords (by far the best infantry in the model game... mmmm slaneesh) against 10 or so players as imperial guard

also, i would be tremendously impressed if they kept the wounds system going. Although this would make characters die extremely fast, possibly a character could control a squad of troops (as squad combat is the shit), therefore it would be possible to have relatively big battles with less people. Also, this could make massive battles (50+ on each side), absolutely amazing, similar to real battles.

Vehicle Combat
Also would be hard, again this could be done with one character controlling one vehicle, think of it in dawn of war terms, one unit is (technically) a squad or a vehicle.

Heros

A huge part of the WH universe and gameplay, I honestly have no idea how they would do this. This could make or break the game, so i'm interested to see what they will do. I don't really see how they could make it more or less balanced, as hero's can't exactly come in squads.

EDIT: i realize my squad control kind of seems like an RTS, what i more meant was third person view on one member of the squad, when he dies or you want to switch to a more advantageous character (heavy bolt gunner to power sword character), you can switch. This character can also give orders to the rest of his squad, possibly in a simplistic method like freedom fighters

 

[Alex_P]

To the OPs list:
1. More importantly, how would the different species actually, y'know, interact? Are you just going to be incapable of talking to 80% of the other players?
2. Does it make sense to put the player in control of a lone tyranid?
3. Warhammer has a lot of fluff. Some of it is contradictory. A lot of it is crazy-esoteric. There's no way to be truly faithful to all of it.
 

You could make a 40k MMOG focused entirely on battles. It wouldn't work as an "RPG" with levels and items and crap, though; the game would have to be more like a blend of Team Fortress and Planetside.

Or you could make a more conventional MMORPG and not focus on the battles. Then it probably would be restricted to just a particular sphere of the setting. They did this with the recent pen-and-paper game -- basically just turned Inquisitor henchmen into a standard fantasy-RPG adventuring party.

-- Alex

 

[Shajinn]

As an MMORPG I´m afraid it couldn´t possibly work. As a Battlefield style FPS, however, I believe it might just work. Actually I gave this plenty of thought (and have forgotten most of it already...) and have come up with some points that might enrich the gaming experience (ie: making it something else than total and utter crap)

The only thing I´m going to write here is the points-shop system (yeah I know that name is the pinnacle of creativity): Depending on a few factors (kills, helping to seize a strategic point etc.) you get points for yourself as well as for the entire team. You start the game as a basic soldier (guardsman with lasgun, or an uncloaked Tau StealthSuit, Scout for the SM, etc.) and can spend the personal points for better weapons (or special equipment depending on your class, cloaking devices that work for 10 seconds for example) and classes (which you may change before every respawn or at your base between dying). The weapon upgrades don´t have to be re-bought after dying. To integrate the squad idea, you could also include low-class units as squad members, who are extremely exxpensive, but are reborn after you respawn or get to your base. The team points are spent by the team leader (though I don´t know how the game decides on one), who can buy vehicles and global upgrades, like making the Heavy Bolter available for every Marine.

I don´t really know if it has been done before (haven´t played Battlefield, for example) but I think that way balancing could be done a lot easier since you´d just have to change the prices, while keeping the lore specialists happy.

What do you think?

 

[_Serendipity_]

It *could* work as a MMORPG, but they'd have to put in a massive amount of effort to keep it balanced, and decided to wholeheartadly go for a MMORPG.
At very least they'd have to cut out some of the races (at least as PCs. Necrons and Tyranids wouldn't be able to fit in anyway, what with the whole 'killing everthing I see' thing they've got going).

 

[Kovash86]

Reading the fluff of WH40k should be about enough to throw the Pope into a bloody mindless rage, so I don't think so, but it would be funny as hell to watch someone play.

 

[Ultrajoe]

i see the merit in this squad control idea

and some merit in this constant battle idea

and this points to spend idea.

All three together sounds bitchin' you take to the field of war as a squad or individual and ty to gain territory for your race or alliance (tau and Eldar mayhaps, Space marines and guard, chaos and... more chaos?) and as you level you have points to spend each level, like a more advanced talent tree from warcraft.

but the fluff will always be shredded i fear, i guess i can suck it up and take it... provided they don't mess with power levels, they can exclude and restrict all they want, but mess with the power levels and i will never forgive them.

 

[Eyclonus]

As well as balancing those particular aspects relating to the Space Marine's epicness and the Guardsman's disposability, what about psychics?

If you try to keep to the game world your going to end up with Eldar players just brain bursting everyone but Chaos.

Sure you could make it fair for all races and use Psychis as the mage/cleric types but that would eat into well the Eldar's only real trump card.

EDIT: I play Ulthwe Eldar so I can't really think of making the Space Elves anything other than Ninja-Wizards

 

[Ultrajoe]

As well as balancing those particular aspects relating to the Space Marine's epicness and the Guardsman's disposability, what about psychics?

If you try to keep to the game world your going to end up with Eldar players just brain bursting everyone but Chaos.

Sure you could make it fair for all races and use Psychis as the mage/cleric types but that would eat into well the Eldar's only real trump card.

but eldar could be restricted to mages?

while all eldar are psychic, not all of them utilize it, they would be powerful mages, but also a range of aspect warriors, their inherent psychic powers could be universal racial powers, mages, warlocks and healers develop those powers further.

another problem occurs to me, there are only 1 million space marines... in 1000 chapters... you cannot have more!!!!

i could live with not playing marines or chaos marines, and being restricted to troops like guard, fire warriors, heretics, orc boyz, eldar, dark eldar, and other of their ilk would keep me happy... but poor Nids and necron players will be MOBS... and i will cry. *sigh* the hive mind is fun until you want the opportunity to play as an individual.

UNLESS! Tyranids play as GENESTEALERS!!!!

SEPERATE FROM THE HIVE MIND! they grind for meat, they kill for the preparation of the planet, they deal with broodlords and spore chimneys, buying biomorphs and upgrades, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

its doable... but making classes for them would be very hard... you could have rogue variants (mini-lictors) combat types (gene-stealers... duh) or a psychic variant (mutated psyker!)

its just crazy enough to keep me hopeful until nids' are confirmed as MOBS...

that was a rant, but after remembering stealers' are apart from the hive, i buzz with thought and hope!

 

[Rolling Thunder]

The FPS sounds good, and as for a MMORPG?

INQUISITOR!!! Duh? Everyone plays as an inquisitor, or another charecter, and ambles around an ever-expanding universe killing, negotiating and generally preseving/destroying the Imperium.

The FPS: To be really true to the fluff (rather than the battlefield) Each guard player is a platoon commander (starting rank) each marine is a marine, each ork is, again, and ork, each nid player is a Warrior, each tau player (is gay) is a squad commander, each necron commander is a warrior, each Adeptus Soritas (SoB) player is a sister, each eldar player is.... errr, that's a bugger (no squad commanders).

 

[Sejs Cube]

Honestly, really?

No. WH40k just doesn't work as a setting for an MMO. MMOs are basically all about indivual heroism. 40k really, really isn't. Classes would either be insane or impossible to balance (a Sister, an Impy Scout and a Terminator walk into a bar...), nearly all the de facto races hate eachother by default, and the meat of the game (squads, mass combat, vehicles) would be lost in the translation.

At best you'd end up playing only various human factions, maybe with some Eldar or Tau thrown in. No Chaos, no 'Nids, no Orcs, no Necrons, etc. I just really can't see it working - it's just too much of a square peg for that particular round hole.

What you might be able to pull off better would be something that took advantage of the setting without fishing too deep into its inherrent MMO-disadvantages - something like a Necromunda MMO.

 

[Ultrajoe]

1) a Tyranid warrior is hugely overpowered compared to the rest of those guys.

2) Im sick of not choosing a race in 40K media (thats why i loved DoW) and i want to play Nids' damnit! inquisitor could be fun, but for once id love to make war as a marine on the tau, because i choose too, or as a Nid' eat some orc face, because thats how i roll/scuttle. One race, archetype would be fun but to me it betrays the point of 40K, to choose a race and champion them.

The FPS idea i like, but balance issues are a problem, see point 1, warriors are beasts (literally) in comparison even to a space marine, more wounds, more strength, more guns, bigger guns, faster, psychic... the list goes on.

I like the idea of a squad command though, a warrior could lead a brood of gaunts, crappy gaunts balanced by the massive balls of the Warrior in charge... if he had balls... or genitalia...

EDIT:

@ Sejs cube

i agree, but rumors are that a 40K MMO is in the pipeline, and i'm worried in the same ways you are, how the hell can it be done?? i dont think it can! (unless some motive is put on advancing your team as a whole, like territory/resource control)

 

[Redarmy238]

well you properly could use the hell gate engine and maybe fix all the bugs and have it all set on one planet.

 

[Copter400]

Well, I didn't think that it would be that hard to make a balanced game. If you transfered the flaws that the individual armies had from that the individual armies had straight over, it should stop Ultra Joe from entering a murderous rage and winding up in jail.

Which would be bad.

I mean, you could make the Tau excellent shooters but have craptastic close combat scores. And the Space Marine armour of ass-rape shouldn't be too powerful if you make them really slow to move and level-up.

 

[Sejs Cube]

Part of the problem there lies in the fact that 40k is fully willing to admit to inherrent lack of balance. A terminator rolling up sporting a whirlwind missle system, chainfist, storm bolter, defense screen and a psychic purple dildo strapped to his helmet is quite reasonably assrapetastic, fully capable of kicking over lemonade stands and making entire armored divisions call him 'daddy'.

The only balance in normal 40k comes from the fact that to be so chock full of your daily dosage of Vitamin Win, said terminator would be more expensive than gold-plated, chocolate-dipped God.

The only way you might be able to swing balance would be if everyone rolls in at the peon/grunt level and basically stays there while big brother NPCs get to score all the really cool swag and all you get to do is watch. The glass ceiling presents an inherrent problem, as presented by the base material. Start as a Guardsman, work your balls off, and in the end you may get to lead a squad of vets. Which sounds great until you see an Inquisitor, or an Assassin, or a Warp Spider pop in, steal your lunch, and make fun of your mom before popping out again.

The truly fist-pumping "hell yeah" setting-defining stuff would pretty much have to remain forever out of your reach if any semblence of balance were to be attained. Unit point cost works great as a measuring stick when it comes to large scale conflicts, but in games about personal achievement, it betrays you and leaves you for dead in the desert.