Poll: What are the problems with MMO's and what could we possibly learn inorder to make a better one

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Fire Daemon

Quoth the Daemon
Dec 18, 2007
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I frankly dislike MMO's because of the images asscoiated with them, and frankly I see those images (read: stereotypes) to be true).

Thats why I can't wait for APB so I can go and shoot some gangztaz.

But In all truth I don't want to join a comunity where I can argue about Longsword preferences.
 

Anniko

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Dec 6, 2007
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You didn't put an "All of the above" option.

The monthly payments on top of the initial payment, the endless grinding with no variation, the lack of a storyline (Ideally, the main storyline should be run via gamemasters and all other quests just be small storylines. When the main storyline ends, there's a rest in the game world where there's nothing big going on and then another one starts. If you want to centre it around someone, just have a random number generator and from that point on, whoever it is who logs in is that player. This isn't done because it would require a team of writers, storyline GMs and world builders for each storyline.) the complete morons and the lack of variation in character appearance (Oh, you want the best equipment? Okay, just jump in the Clone-O-Matic and we'll have you looking like everyone else in no time.).
 

Lazzi

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Apr 12, 2008
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I voted for the grinding, since imo it's simply the most glaring problem: MMOs are utterly boring, tedious and more work than game. Running around killing some arbitrary monsters by pushing 1,2,4 and then 3 exactly in that order for hour after hour simply is not fun.
Added to that are the problems that every multiplayer game has: Many people out there are simply idiots. Playing with them is not exactly my idea of having a good time. I wouldn't invite them to watch a movie or have a beer, so why should I want to play a game with them?
I simply had enough of those guys in online games to just be fed up with them.
Also, MMORPG is a misnomer. There's no RPG in there.
So, long story short: All of the things other people before me have already posted here. I'm just bored ;)
 

Credge

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Apr 12, 2008
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matches81 said:
I voted for the grinding, since imo it's simply the most glaring problem: MMOs are utterly boring, tedious and more work than game. Running around killing some arbitrary monsters by pushing 1,2,4 and then 3 exactly in that order for hour after hour simply is not fun.
In reality, you could say that about almost any game =\. RTS boil down to hitting hotkeys and telling units to go somewhere. FPS boil down to pointing your crosshair at an enemy and firing. Racing games have you pointing the car in the direction you want to go.

The execution of these basic tasks is what makes a game good or bad. The majority of MMO's, sadly, have a very boring combat system. This is thanks, mainly, to EQ where tank classes, generally, had two buttons they pressed (three if you count auto-attack), the majority of casters had one or two spells they cast, and then most people had macros set up to auto-buff the group. Stuff like this went a long way in changing the MMO from UO to WoW.

The biggest problem in MMO's tends to be the speed of things. Combat will either be too short or too long with not a big enough reward the majority of the time. This isn't to say that grinding is a bad thing, as MMO's that tried to eliminate grinding simply couldn't do it (Vanguard with its naggingly long runs to turn in a potion to some fondle-monster isn't exactly thrilling), but having to grind is generally a bad way to go about things.

Sadly, the majority of end game content in MMO's boils down to who, or what group, can grind what the longest to achieve the biggest e-peen of them all. In fact, that seems to be the entire WoW experience in a nut shell.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of problems with MMO's, so I'll just list them in no order of importance.

1. No character love. The only two MMO's I've actually cared about my characters in were UO and EQ. This is partly due to those games being incredibly unforgiving in death and partly due to those games having you invest time into the characters for them to be worth while. In EQ this equated to grinding. In UO this equated to any number of things.

2. No real impact in the world. This is a pretty big problem and some MMO's have tried to tout that the player can have an impact on the world when nothing of the sort ever happens. "Oh man. If I finish this quest this man will move over to this rock over here!" Big deal. EQ2 tried to emulate this by not allowing a race to be played until a player completed a quest. No, I'm not talking about you... I'm talking about any player on that server. In UO, your player actually had some sort of an impact in the world as you, the player, could do any number of things to actually have an important impact on not only other players, but the lay of the land.

3. Risk/Reward. No MMO has done this right. The risk needs to be equal to the reward. EQ and UO had this all wrong (very high risk, very little reward) and now WoW and all the other MMO's like it have it the exact opposite (very little risk, very high reward). When I kill a goblin, he should have a few things on him. The value of these items should make sense according to the world you are living in, not according to what the player base thinks. This brings me to #4.

4. Economy. MMO economies suck. Not enough reliance on NPC's for essential good required for every day play makes farming incredibly simple. It should be very hard to actually make a living as an adventurer. Those riches should be reserved for very high risk areas. This doesn't mean, though, that the player should be starved for items. Part of the problem of in game economies are the fact that the majority of items are not Unique... that is to say that a player can't have more than one of that item.

5. The grind. Just make the risk equal the reward. This way, it doesn't feel like grinding as it should actually feel like you are getting 'better'. In fact, the biggest reason grinding exists is because levels exist. MMO's without levels generally don't have the feeling that you're grinding. Games like UO did this very well, although you could easily cheat your way through some of the skills in a day.

Monthly fees aren't really an issue at all. 15 bucks a month is less than you pay when you go to the movies and will easily net you more entertainment, regardless of if you like the game or not, than a movie will. They also, generally, ensure that you play that one game more than others. I can't even begin to count the number of games I've bought since I stopped playing MMO's that were simply terrible but bought them because I had beaten the other games I had to death.
 

WhiteFangofWhoa

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Jan 11, 2008
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^^
Well, I'm thinking Credge just said it better than I ever could, but I'm fresh from quitting WoW so here comes my take on the main reasons and ways you could improve them:

1. Lack of originality. A friend once jokingly told me there are two kinds of MMOs- Apocalypse Futuristic and Medieval. City of Heroes is the only big one I can think of that doesn't use either of these settings overmuch. I believe this happens because these are the two settings most used in gaming and movies, and thus has a far greater wealth of materials, cool designs and references to rip of*cough* pay homage to. Basically, any setting that gets used in a quality 3D game or any novel should be adaptable to an MMO with a little imagination.

2. Obessive grinding. The big one for me. Having two dozen different species to fight in the Barrens doesn't mean jack all when they all fight pretty much the same way- melee with a unique buff or two. Easy enough to fix- developers just have to learn the same lesson regular game devs did about 15 years ago and give enemies different attack patterns and weaknesses. I remember hearing about a WoW Raid Boss named Hakkar (never fought him) who actually required everyone in the group to recieve one of his debuffs to survive his strongest spell, immediatley reminding me of Yunalesca's Megadeath from Final Fantasy. More cunning enemies like that please, and not just the Raid Bosses. One style of play shouldn't work on everything.

Having a diverse cast of foes and attacks is just half the battle: 'Kill some of local wildlife x,y, and z' is the current bread and butter of all MMOs it seems. Even if doing so required you to kill a lot of wildlife x y and z during a trip from point a to point b, a more complex mission objective helps alleviate boredom. Any mission objective or action sequence in a regular game can be moved into an MMORPG- it just takes a little creativity. Personally I would like to see more missions where the hideout of the enemy you've just been waging a one-man war against blows up or something after you're done the quest tree. Some kind of marker to announce your triumph.

3. Lack of an ingame economy. Everyone of course thinks of the legendary 'Chinese Gold Farmers', but honestly I never found them terribly annoying unless they steal a kill from you- maybe another four minutes longer to finish a quest. Big deal. A more valid economic concern raised was money in RL- the annoyance of a membership fee. A neccessary evil I guess, but one that could be balmed with the introduction of multiple payment plans for different people with different schedules. Perhaps a 'buy in bulk' plan for 6 months with an overall discount, and another for folks with a limited amount of play time that would give them only 2 hours per day, but be cheaper than the monthly plan to compensate... Just like a phone company. I know I'd definetly get the 2-hour-per-day plan for WoW or CoH if it was available.

Fantasism, I'm afraid. Half of what kept me going in WoW for so long was the thought of all that wasted pay time when I was at work or school. A cheap, even despicable way of ensuring player loyalty, but one that is incredibly effective.
 

Dr_Swordopolis

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Feb 23, 2008
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sun_and_earth said:
My biggest problems with MMOs:

1) Severs are entirely populated by MORONS. Am I really the only one who actually wants to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME?

2) Monthly subscriptions. I understand that servers don't come cheap, but if I pay sixty dollars for a game I want to be able to play it.

3) Obsessive need to be EXACTLY like World of Warcraft. Can't anyone try something new with these games? How about a turn-based game? Are they illegal or something?
All of the above, plus the fact that WoW tried to steal my girlfriend.
 

mr mcshiznit

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Apr 10, 2008
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honestly pay for play is the worst....you can play wow for 15 a month plus the core payment of the game... that starts to really pile up. to rich for my blood
 

Credge

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Apr 12, 2008
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WhiteFangofWar said:
Fantasism, I'm afraid. Half of what kept me going in WoW for so long was the thought of all that wasted pay time when I was at work or school. A cheap, even despicable way of ensuring player loyalty, but one that is incredibly effective.
That's one of the bigger reasons why so many will continue to play WoW like they did EQ. All the time spent in the game doesn't actually really mean anything outside of the game.

I think this is also why achievements are so popular. All that time spent actually shows something on your Live account. "LOOK AT HOW DEVOTED I AM TO GAMING!" Yeah, great.
 

Lazzi

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Apr 12, 2008
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Credge said:
In reality, you could say that about almost any game =\. RTS boil down to hitting hotkeys and telling units to go somewhere. FPS boil down to pointing your crosshair at an enemy and firing. Racing games have you pointing the car in the direction you want to go.
Well, basically you're right. But my point was not the controls of MMORPGs, but how they are used. I think WhiteFangoWar brought my point across much better than I did: One play style fits every enemy. No thinking required. You encounter an enemy, turn auto-attack on and throw in your "special attacks" with the press of a number key every now and then. That doesn't require skill or thought at all, which is what all the other games you listed would require at least to some extent. In most MMORGPs I played it gets even worse since you often fight dozens of monsters of the same type one after the other. After the first two of those monsters you know exactly how long it will take to kill one of them and what "special attacks" you'll need, after which it gets even more boring, since you only repeat the same sequence over and over again.

Other than that I completely agree with you.
The only MMORPG I played that circumvented the grinding somewhat well was DDO: Hunting monsters doesn't help you, you have to do quests to get somewhere, and those quests mostly are far better done than the ones found in DDO's competition. Also, the combat resembles that real-time semi-turn-based system found in most single-player RPGs today. While I don't think that system is ideal, at least I don't get bored to death.
 

Lazzi

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Apr 12, 2008
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sun_and_earth said:
My biggest problems with MMOs:

1) Severs are entirely populated by MORONS. Am I really the only one who actually wants to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME?

2) Monthly subscriptions. I understand that servers don't come cheap, but if I pay sixty dollars for a game I want to be able to play it.

3) Obsessive need to be EXACTLY like World of Warcraft. Can't anyone try something new with these games? How about a turn-based game? Are they illegal or something?
ok I understand that many people liek to role play and every thing and im fine with that, but soem people dotn want another life but an extention of the real one so role playing realy doesnt help when you want to socialize with real people.

I belive that subscriptions are nessary, they could be cheaper but were stuck with them.

Lastly we need live action/real time gaming turn based mmos woudl do well in the online comunity to time wasting and i would steal some strategy. alos becuase of different rates of information trasnfer we cant have soem thing so hands on as we woudl with a ifhgting styel more remonisant of kingdom hearts.
 

Aetmos

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Mar 31, 2008
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MMOs are social games by definition. And many people will play MMOs long past their prime for their social aspects.

So make social networking tools a priority. A game doesn't include any social networking tools beyond friend list and text chat? AutoFail.
 

MaxRaine

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May 1, 2008
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I want something in MMOs that's never going to happen - A solo or small group (of maximum 5-6 people) alternative to the massive raids.

This is mostly pointed at WoW, as it's the only MMO I'm currently playing. I love WoW but I've now taken two characters to level 70 and are starting to lose interest. I heavily dislike PvP other than the occasional battle ground. I hate playing in groups larger than 5 people. But! I too want to have a shot at getting the end game gear and experience the end game instances without having to go with others than my friends. I've played with a static party both times I've gotten to lv 70 and would love to continue doing so. I'm not saying it should be easy but I am saying that it should be possible. Much of this is because me and my friends play WoW casually and we don't want to risk turning it into a job where you have to raid at certain scheduled times and if you're not there you get kicked out of the guild for being in the way or something.

Well, that's my small amount of currency on MMOs.
 

Omnidum

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Mar 27, 2008
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I chose "Other", because I like to think it is a mixture of all of those you listed.
 

meatloaf231

Old Man Glenn
Feb 13, 2008
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Keet said:
Largest problem with MMORPGS for me is the complete and utter lack of any overarching storyline. Sure, there are individual guild quests and item quests and "please help me scratch my nanny's bum" subquests, but when all is said and done, there really isn't any depth to it. The industry can regurgitate fanfiction into official storybooks as much as it wants to, but the fact remains that if it is not in the game, then ipso facto, it is a commercial figment and nothing more. PSO was the only online rpg that managed to avoid this pitfall, but they made the game so rigedly structured that partying was a hassle and the whole experience seemed somewhat hollow in retrospect.
Guild wars is the answer. There is a great overarching story and there are absolutely no "Go to X kill Y number of Z. Return.

And its free monthly. HECK YES.
 

Aethonic

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Jan 10, 2008
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There are plenty of fun games that lack originality, but they are still interesting to play. You can forgive a lot when you play the game for its own sake, rather than trudging along for some reward.

I originally expected the "MMO" part to simply be a feature added onto a game to add scale and spontaneity, but all it did was bring in the imbeciles to interfere. And then games started revolving around the community as #1, so the gameplay started to suffer.

In my opinion, WoW is successful because it built upon an existing brand, and did so with the least-terrible execution. Few can compete because few have a brand as strong as Warcraft, especially now. Despite that, I'm hoping someone competent eventually makes something like Planetside, because there was a lot of wasted potential.
 

UmbrellaRedshirt

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May 2, 2008
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Ah Planetside, if only Tabula Rasa had learned from that somewhat smudged Gem. Anyway, as an avid MMO user, I consider myself ungodly masochistic, I mean I played SWG for a year for crying out loud. I'm currently playing WoW and have to say the biggest problem I had with the previous MMOs I played was the somewhat Snobbishness (yah for made up words!) of the players. WoW has been tainted by it's mainstream appeal, yes but it has also made the whole MMO genre seem a little bit "less" and I use that word lightly, elitist. I find myself feeling a little less like a shut in when Frat boy Bob and Frat boy Steve talk about their RFK run at a local McDonalds. Then again, this "MTV" effect may bring about the fall of gaming as we know it, well that already happened when the PS2 was advertised on MTV. I remember that day, and I wept.

Opps, for a first post I rambled on. Anyway, to make the perfect MMO you need to balance accessibility with content which may be one of the toughest balancing acts since the constitution.
 

Mnemophage

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Mar 13, 2008
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The one thing that annoys me most about MMOs is that there is seemingly only one way to play. You pick your immutable and pre-set playstyle package and trundle through the available quest trees until you're big enough to do some other ones with other people this time. That is, of course, providing the designers had patience and creativity enough to try and add that kind of quest progress - nevertheless, your sole means of advance is killing other things and taking their stuff. There's no room for creativity - hell, often you're either ostracized or outright punished for it when you do try to play your way.

One of the reasons I got so sparkly-eyed about City of Heroes was that it actively encouraged you to build and flesh out a unique persona and immerse yourself in the world. While bouncing around screeching painfully at mutated gangbangers had its own appeal, the greatest threshold of fun for me was when I first acquired the ability to fly. Even just that one little ability - free flying anywhere you want - made it fun and worthwhile. I could explore. I could zoom around like an idiot yelling at things on the ground and acquiring an enormous mob of death which with I could vaguely irritate iconic NPCs. I could cross seemingly impassable areas with a click of my heels and a swoosh of my dreadlocks. And it made my trenchcoat billow in a very awesome way.

I love it when a game gives you the tools and lets you muddle out your own means of fun. The freedom can be absolutely dreary at first, but once you get used to using your imagination, you start to miss it every time you must lock it away.