Poll: What are your views on abortion???

[esperandote]

However, to bring up yet another hypothetical question, "What if the person gets drunk and has no idea who the father is?"

then the person should had though more througly to drink that much.

a child not knowing a parent, or something of that sort, can be pretty psychologically screwy for kids.

not being born too.

Heck, I'll speak for myself here; I was probably an abortion that should've been done, in my opinion(neither of my birth parents were ready, unmarried, et cetera) but religion barged in and now I'm stuck rather miserably with my adopted parents and for a long time have kinda felt rejected because my birth parents gave me up because they couldn't properly care for me.

Sorry to hear that, but you still have plenty of years to turn that around for you and your possible children.

 

[Suikun]

If fetuses are people then abortion is wrong, and if they aren't people, then abortion is fine. I think we need some more research into how smart they are, and until then, we should err on the side of not killing them.

Also, lol at the people who say that fetuses aren't people, then refer to pregnant women as "mothers."

Also, if you say that abortion makes sense for kids who would have bad lives, then in order to be logically consistant, you would have to support killing kids who have already been born and have bad lives. Unless you think fetuses aren't people, in which case that should have been put foreward as your argument instead.

If my memory serves and Wikipedia tells me true, the second or third trimester is when the fetus becomes self aware and sentient. Some people make the argument that at this point the fetus can feel pain, and the medication used to kill the fetus at that point makes for a very disturbingly painful death. Keep in mind this is just what I've heard, and I could be very, very wrong in the matter.

As for your "killing kids who are miserable" argument, that's kinda flawed within itself. Now you're talking Kevorkian and assisted suicide to some extent. Jurisdiction says that (as of now) this is illegal, because it's still murder. However, from an ethical point of view it's kinda hard to say whether or not you'd be doing the right thing, or at least I think so.

then the person should had though more througly to drink that much.

True, but it's more or less the same argument as rape, here. Just a different method of getting into the situation.

not being born too.

Errr..... I don't think dead people have psychae to begin with... >.> Unless you're being sarcastic... then feel free to call me an idiot.

Sorry to hear that, but you still have plenty of years to turn that around for you and your possible children.

Well, here's where you get the big wrench out of nowhere: I'm gay, so chances are that my kids aren't going to exist. And truthfully, you can ask anybody who's adopted and chances are at some point or another they wondered why their parents gave them up and it can be pretty disheartening.

But now we're going to get into the "what if" game, and that never goes good places. Truth be told, there's going to exceptions to just about everything, depending on time, place and circumstance. What if your kid is supposed to grow up and cure cancer? What if your kid is supposed to grow up and become a second Hitler, except worse? That's what's so damned funny about the future; you never know exactly what it's going to hold, especially with far-down-the-road predictions like that.

I'll respectively stick to my side of the argument, however, simply because I've seen far too many cases of people having a kid too soon and having it wreak havoc on their lives and making the child's life terrible as a result. Yes, it's something you can't tell, but if nothing else, it's good to know that the possibility is there.

 

[Artemis923]

The sun rose today in some part of the world. There is no further room for argument in that situation and as such, you've been discredited.

Hrrm. I can see you're as biased as the protesters that stand outside the clinics all day long.

There may be no further argument with YOU in this matter, but the debate is far from over.

 

[Agent Larkin]

Mothers right to chose. End of discussion.

 

[Suikun]

To claify, I wasn't saying that killing kids with bad lives is an excellent idea. I meant that if someone says "abortion makes sense in cases where the kid would have a bad life," then he would have to support killing kids who currently have bad lives, or else he'd be a hypocrite.

Again, not quite. There's a difference between a child who's already born and has been raised et cetera and a fetus who isn't even sentient in a mother's womb. Yes, I know, now I'm falling right into your cleverly placed trap, but you're taking this to extremes. I think the mother of a child should know that if they have the child, and they're going to end up malnourished and barely alive day to day, then maybe it's not a great place to bring the child into the world. I think we both can agree on that. But if a child is already in the world and is suffering, then we can talk Kevorkian as I mentioned before. Technicalities are, and will forever be, complete bullshit.

But, this is falling into the "what if" game again, which is just never-ending bullshitting for both sides. You can argue the same thing and skew it all around but all in all it's going to come down to the same damned thing: people will have differing opinions and will battle to have their opinion made law. Heck, look at the Gay Marriage ban and tell me that that's fair, too.

(Note: Please, don't respond to the last sentence. I don't want to start a flame war in here, I'm just making a point.)

 

[Artemis923]

The sun rose today in some part of the world. There is no further room for argument in that situation and as such, you've been discredited.

Hrrm. I can see you're as biased as the protesters that stand outside the clinics all day long.

There may be no further argument with YOU in this matter, but the debate is far from over.

If no one here was biased there would be no debate. I also find that your argument falls into the category of ad hominem.

As does yours.

As for my "argument"...I merely stated that there was always room for argument on the subject of abortion. I get it, you think it's murder. I'm not going to sit here and have an ideological battle with you...because in the end, it's your opinion.

And to be honest, I don't give a mummer's fart about your opinion.

 

[Shaoken]

Abortion should be illegal just as murder should be illegal, there is no further argument.

Agreed, sir. Side note: don't forget adoption.

This is the arguement brought up by "Pro-lifers" that always pisses me off.

Great, let's make a mother go and spend nine months pregnant with a child she knows she's going to give up, causing god knows how much psychological trauma, then let's just take the child and put it in the child care system. In theory they would be adopted by a loving, caring family and live a good life, and pro-lifers pat themselves on the back for "another child saved," but let's honestly look at the system shall we? How much abuse happens there? How many gets are fucked up by it? How many kids never find that loving family?

The whole adoption arguement is bullshit; a lot of kids suffer in it but most pro-lifers don't give a damn about babies unless they're in someone else's womb. Instead of fighting so hard for something which may just be a lump of cells with no soul they should work on imporoving the lives of kids who have already been born.

Now I know that not all pro-lifers are like that, but it's just something that always annoys me of the adoption arguement; for me it's just an excuse they bring up to try and demonize abortion without putting in the effort to actually make a difference in a kids life once it's born.

Now onto the argument itself; I follow the belief that people should have the right to practice, believe and do activities in accordance with their beliefs so long as they don't affect the right of others to do the same. Abortion doesn't directly affect many of the pro-life crowd, the mother should have the right to control her own body and everything that goes on within it and pro-lifers need to stop trying to force their believes onto others who don't believe in them.

Now one of the arguemenmts I've seen brought up is that abortion is funded by tax payers dollars, which pro-lifers use to claim that it reflects on them morally. The arguement being that their dollars are being used to murder defensless embryos and thus it reflects on their souls/morality. But if we follow that arguement through to it's logical conclusion that means that anytime a piece of military equipment ends up killing a civillian or fellow solider then that person's blood is on every tax payers hands.

And most of the pro-life crowd has never been in the position that many women considering abortions are in. Like it's been pointed out most pro-life speakers are male and many point argue that it's a matter of men exerting control over women (I have no comment on that particular arguement since it'd be getting into another flame-filled arguement). The case that sticks out in my mind was the excomunication of abortion doctors and the mother of a nine-year-old girl who was raped and impregnated by her step father. The pro-life crowd wanted her to carry the baby to term and have a c-section, completely indifferent to the mental trauma it would inflict on an already traumatised child and the health risks involved. (if I've gotten any facts wrong please feel free to correct me).

Anyway, in order to wrap this up you can conclude my stance as this; I support abortion in the cases of Rape, Incest and if the alternative posses a health risk for the mother. While I don't agree with abortion being used as an alternative to birth control I support their right to use abortion even if I disagree with their reasoning; there is no way to screen them out without causing even more harm to my acceptable situation victims.

 

[Hephaesto]

ALl I'll say is those who are fanatically against abortion always seem to be great adverts for it.

Although when it comes to selective abortion, i.e. China selectively aborting 40 million babies because they were female - fact, it can have serious consequences. China has a one child policy as I'm sure you all know, however when a girl gets married they officially become a member of the husband's family. Hence, couples that can't afford to pay for a liscence for a second child, will selectively abort a baby if it's a girl so they can have a boy to look after them in their old age. Tragic.

 

[Dr.Seuss]

Abortion should be illegal just as murder should be illegal, there is no further argument.

Agreed, sir. Side note: don't forget adoption.

snip*

Well, I must say, if that is your opinion, I have no right to criticize it. But I will defend myself in this matter. If my claims come to you as disrespectful, or you find some false facts, I sincerely apologize and ask that you tell me.
First off, I feel that your "most pro-lifers" not caring about kids that have been born is an unfair claim. I understand that it's entirely possible for all of the "pro-lifers" you know to be like that, but the ones I know do all that they can to help support adoption facilities. Also, it's not to demonize abortion, it's to show an alternative.

Now, about the taxation. We all have the right to complain about taxes we don't like. You bring up an interesting point about military funding, and, the fact is, war, like abortion, is a tragedy our world is forced to suffer through. Although, not funding abortion will not cause our country to be invaded or attacked by other nations. War payments are a necessity. Sad but true. Another thing to consider here. Do you see a returning soldier as a murderer? I'd hope not, because soldiers are not on the battlefield to kill, but to protect their nation.

About how it's their body their rules, I'm pretty sure prostitution is illegal, but it is the prostitute's body. (sorry for having to bring up such a sick example.)

To your most speakers are male, the only two pro-life speakers I've ever heard were women. That's why I found their argument most convincing. Also, pro-life men aren't trying to ruin the lives of women. You already agree with my main argument, using abortion as a form of birth control. I feel that this is encouragement to turn women into "objects" because with abortion, who cares if a girl gets pregnant? She can just get get an abortion and be on with her life. But that won't cover the emotional scars of being mistreated by the person who made her pregnant in the first place.

About the nine year old girl, that is a tragic story, and that's what makes this argument hard. Health risks. The fact is, the majority of abortions do not happen for health risks. They happen as birth control. Also, it's important to realize that just because someone like myself is pro-life, does not mean that they are shallow minded and uncaring. I joined the movement because I think that it's sick how some men mistreat women. There are more points that could be brought up on both sides, but that's enough for tonight.

 

[DaMan1500]

I think abortion should be legal, not because I have something against unborn fetuses, but because just like everything else that's illegal, people will do it anyway. I think if a woman wants an abortion, it would be better to do it in a doctor's office with a trained professional then at home with a coathanger.

 

[Hugo Artenis Rune]

This is destined to end badly

I think every woman should have the choice to have an abortion, I think it's better that you end the life before it has been born so it doesn't know anything than to make the women give birth and have the child raised badly and suffer.

This.

You know guys, the reason there's a Post Box is to contribute to the thread. One-word-posts and other such pointless replies are punishable.

Yes. I'm sorry. A one word post is pointless - but not when the discussion is on a topic as complicated as this one. I would agree with you, and indeed side with you - if this topic were about something as flippant as "headshots - good or bad?".

However I'm going to stick by my one word post and reiterate my agreement with GeekATHeart's comment - every woman SHOULD have the choice for an abortion.

I am not just saying this because I feel that you have somehow slighted me by commenting on my post - I'm not - I'm saying this because ten months ago my wife and I sat down together and agreed to an abortion.

Because we live in Ireland (where abortion is still illegal) and we didn't have the money to go to the UK, we ended up ordering what amounts to a home abortion kit over the internet. And no - we're not stupid, we did the research and consulted some friendly hospital staff and decided to go ahead with it. And here's the procedure. Your wife/partner will have to take some tablets and then (presuming she doesn't suffer some frightening side-effects) 24 hours later take another tablet which will induce a rejection of the foetus. If all goes according to plan, your wife will then suffer quite nasty abdominal pains followed by what can only be called an expulsion. You, being the male part of the equation will have to do nothing at all except spend the next few days looking after the woman you love and watching for any signs of abnormalities and hoping like hell that you've done the right thing.

Now, I know there are anti-abortion people here on this thread, so I feel that I have to justify "our" abortion to you guys.

I'm a work-from-home father. One of those "New Men" wankers. I have a thirteen year old step-daughter who I love to bits. My son is 4 years old and will probably end up charming the pants off everyone he meets. I also have a two year old daughter whom I'm utter besotted by - when she's older I'm going to be totally screwed because I'm going to give her anything she wants. Every day I change nappies, prepare snacks, go to the playground, read stories, nurse injuries, sing songs and work like a ************ so I can give my wife and children a good life.

I would DIE for my children. In a second. Probably more importantly, I would KILL for my children, if that were required. I love them. I love them.

My wife and I decided to kill one of our children for the sake of the others. There was no way that we could have another - neither mentally, physically or financially. You can tell me I'm wrong if you like but I'm not going to listen to you unless you're in the same situation as we are.

Abortion is a fucked up issue - it is NOT clear cut. It is NOT easy to define. And it's bloody unfair to comment upon it unless you've been through it. Sure, people can say that you've ended a potential human life.. But every male on this forum ends about 200 MILLION potential lives every time they have a wank ffs. Every woman's period is a life that could have been....

We made our decision to have an abortion because it was simply the best thing for us to to. There was no way we could support four children - in any respect. To have another child would be taking so much away from the ones we already have.

So there you go - that's the subtext to a one word post.

Every day I miss the child we didn't have - I think she would have been beautiful. I will never take him fishing. I'll never run after him the first time he takes the training wheels off his bike. I'll never watch her trying on her first dress. I'll never get to hold the baby we decided to kill.

If we didn't do what we did then I wouldn't be here now typing this. I'd be sitting on the couch nursing my child.

Did we make the right decision?

Yes. Yes we did.