Poll: What Do You Think About "Playing To Win"?

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Nutcase

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D_987 said:
Nutcase said:
D_987 said:
Nutcase said:
Do you at least understand the difference between such a call being made by experts, and by people who don't understand the game?
Self-proclaimed experts...
I don't see anything "self-proclaimed" about Sirlin's expert status when it comes to playing to win and competitive game design. You seem to have a bone to pick with him, but he is an expert, period.
Ok, go look up the words self-proclaimed - he himself is claiming to be an expert of said game therefore he's a self-proclaimed expert; your the only person here claiming he is an expert... Your other points are meaningless because I've already addressed them, you just ignored them.
Your use of "self-proclaimed expert" is a stand-in for "not an expert". Which you also spelled out elsewhere, and you are obviously wrong on that.

His expert status depends on his expertise, not what random people on this or any other thread say.
 

Mercernary

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Um... winning is sort of the point of playing a game. You don't play a game so that you can purposely lose to make the other person feel better about themselves.
 

LimeJester

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I've played games where the person will do absolutely everything to destroy you and not give you a chance. In those scenarios I have still managed to have fun. I agree to the point that recreational gaming shouldn't be taken really seriously (if I am reading you correctly) but at the same time it's sort of taking it seriously to get bent out of shape when someone rushes/camps you to utterly decimate you just to win. Sure it's not the best attitude to have but really if the person is ruining your experience you can always find a new server. It's just how I look at it.
 

teisjm

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As long as it's game mechanics, and no exploids it's fair play IMO.

Why wouldn't i camp if i'm niping in FPS, thats how i play sniper

I'm not really playing a lot of real RTS, but yeah, rushing is a usefull tatic, so i would do it (or choose a strategy that can withstand an enemy rush, seeing as I would assume that my opponent did the same)

I ususally don't spam attacks in fighters, I don't find it usefull. Theres always a way to counter or block an attack or tactic (in other types of games as well) so if you do the same thing over and over you're gonna get outlayed unless your opponent is playing poorly, or the game is too unbalanced.

The only game i've played a lot multiplayer in recenty is DotA, I play onlin public games with my brother, and we both love getting heroes that work well together and do out best to crush our opponents (though half the games are sadly won/lost/ended because of leavers)

When playing fighters like tekken or SSBB I do chose differnt characters, it gets ooring just playing with one char all the time, and when playing with friends, we do try to even the fight out, for instance, we usually go with winners gets 5% less HP or has to chose a new char in tekken.

But bascly, if it isn't cheating, and it isn't some sort of exploit anything goes.
 

D_987

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Nutcase said:
Your use of "self-proclaimed expert" is a stand-in for "not an expert". Which you also spelled out elsewhere, and you are obviously wrong on that.

His expert status depends on his expertise, not what random people on this or any other thread say.
Define "expertise" within a gaming context then. You can't, because unless a game has been specifically designed to be played in a certain way there will always be someone better. The person even admits to using underhand tactics to win; something anyone could do. Its not a question of "I'm an expert", its a question of "I'm prepared to stoop to these lows in order to win". An expert would be someone that creates the games themselves, and thus understands the mechanisms beyond that of a player.
 

joystickjunki3

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I'm not necessarily a subscriber of the "everyone wins as along as we all have fun" theory; because there's definitely a difference in morale when you win versus when you lose (for me at least). I think that people will all play or not play for their own reasons.

If someone chooses to play only to win and they decide to berate someone just their opponent lost, then I'm not okay w/ that. I hate trashtalking after a match. Just move on w/ your life. If making someone understand why you just lost a slayer match in Halo 3 is more important than trying to win another match instead, then I almost feel sorry for you.
 

Wadders

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I'm with my granddad on this one, what is the point in taking part in any competitive pass time if you're not playing to win? Although he played cards and bowls, not games, so it might be a bit different...

I don't mind not winning, but when I am winning I'll be enjoying a PC game far more than if I was just getting by or, God forbid, loosing. So therefore i play to win, as I like seeng my name at the top of the scoreboard :D

It just feels good to show that you're better than someone else at something. I don't want to sound arrogant, I am in no way an excellent player in any of the games I play; playing for fun is all very well, but loosing is no fun at all. Surely nobody can actually say they enjoyed a match if they were getting their ass kicked throughout it?
 

V379

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I play to have fun becuase that is what games are made for, but if you are playing in a tourney or what not winning definetly comes first. But in my opinion that guy has never played T2 and been constantly raped by mortar spam, that is not fun they are playing to win and they ruin the game for everyone else becuase you cann't bounce back from things like that usually and you will not be having fun.
 

Lord George

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I know I come away feeling a lot better after a fun match then a match in which I just win, like in TF2 I can top the leaderboard if I really want to, but I'd much rather spend my time laying traps with demomen and engineers, or going around as a heavy jumping out to taunt kill people and then eat my sandwichz over their copse mahahaah, Tis Good.
 

EvilMaggot

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i dont care if i lose... and yea ofcourse there is alittle victory dance if i win a big battle or something (Total War etc).

Tho in shooters im neutral :p tho when playing with my friends we like to mock eachother xD specially if you knife one you know :p

tho i got a friend he's 22 years old... he is one of the baddest losers i know... he have smashed(hold on) = Keyboard, Door, Mouse, Monitor, Computer, Officechair, a Cola glass and lord knows what... there is holes in his door o_O and when ive beaten him in different games (CS, BF1942 etc..) he has used almost every curse word known to mankind :p
 

Iron Mal

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Wanting to win at a game is perfectly acceptable (after all, who doesn't like winning?) but this shouldn't preoccupy you whilst playing a game (i.e: you shouldn't think that you need to win 'at all costs').

My usual approach is to try to play to the best of my ability (in a fair and sporting manner, so no camping, spamming, sniping etc.) while still being light hearted, I'll usually only get a tad annoyed if someone else starts camping/cheatingetc. or takes the game far too seriously.

Best way to be in my opinion.
 

Et3rnalLegend64

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Nutcase said:
D_987 said:
Nutcase said:
D_987 said:
Nutcase said:
Do you at least understand the difference between such a call being made by experts, and by people who don't understand the game?
Self-proclaimed experts...
I don't see anything "self-proclaimed" about Sirlin's expert status when it comes to playing to win and competitive game design. You seem to have a bone to pick with him, but he is an expert, period.
Ok, go look up the words self-proclaimed - he himself is claiming to be an expert of said game therefore he's a self-proclaimed expert; your the only person here claiming he is an expert... Your other points are meaningless because I've already addressed them, you just ignored them.
Your use of "self-proclaimed expert" is a stand-in for "not an expert". Which you also spelled out elsewhere, and you are obviously wrong on that.

His expert status depends on his expertise, not what random people on this or any other thread say.
Please don't let yourself degenerate into flaming (not saying you are yet). Now, we don't have a "bone to pick" with him. But can you back up why you believe his words are absolute truth and that he is an expert "period" and how we are "obviously wrong" when we give our opinion? Besides the fact that he is a tournament level player that is. That just means that he is exceptionally skilled or at least knows the tactics he needs to win when he plays. It does not make the rest of us fools who don't know what we're saying, so I'd like if you don't claim anything along those lines again. Sirlin responds to disagreements on his own article in that way, and it really just bugs me. On that note, don't you believe that his tone is a good bit past arrogant as well? I am honestly asking. This isn't flamebait and I'm not making fun of Sirlin. Forget his expertise, self proclaimed or not. Don't you think his tone is unnecessary?
 

Xanadu84

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I play to have fun by trying to win. That's pretty much what gaming is. Any strategy is up for grabs if it is intended by the rules of the game, even if those rules are established by the players themselves beforehand. Cheating is wrong. Exploits are wrong, because even if its allowed by the game, it is clearly not intended. However, it should be noted that part of the appeal of video games is that anything you can do is within the realm of the rules, and that freedom of trying anything is important to games, so exploits are naturally, and understandably, difficult to stamp out without patches. Unbalanced strategies are a different issue. Most of the time, someone comes across an unbalanced strategy, complains that it is cheating, and just hasn't noticed that there's a counter-strategy because there too busy whineing. The most common argument I see is, "Quit camping the objective that we need to get to in order to win". No, the game is fun because it's competitive, you can't complain about the other player being good, and exploring the mental space of the game well. A game could, potentially, be unbalanced. But this is a problem with the game, not the players. You can't fault someone for wanting find best strategy. If a game truely is unbalanced, and not fun because of it, set up house rules. For example, I see tons of servers in CoD:W@W that ban Martyr. That's entirely legitimate.

Overly serious players are a major problem. Games are about learning (I don't mean in a cheesy, after school special kind of way, I mean there about thinking and experimenting and pattern recognition. Its the process of mental growth through exploration of a defined mental space). The overly serious player has ceased to learn. He has mastered pretty much all there is to learn, and hes just repeating the motions because they are comfortable, and an ego boost. Or, they have lost sight of a game as an experience for growth, and aren't able to see the fun of the experience anymore, just the meaningless mastery of one specific mental space. Even the most mindless shoot em up still gives you an experience of enlightenment and learning by playing with spacial learning and strategy. An overly serious player is no longer playing a game, but working out a meaningless problem, and that destruction of fun is infectious.
 

Ginnipe

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May 25, 2009
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I go by the "honor" ruleset, if someone is in a room with only one door and he has a shotgun then I don't think he's all that good, If I see someone with a semi auto sniper (looking at you COD4) just shooting away then I also don't think they are very skilled. If I was to use a sniper I would prefer to use a bolt action and go for headshots, the instant kill that some may call cheap acually isn't because it takes skill to get a headshot off a moving enemy.

Now I may sound like that scrub that is in his own mindset, true, I am in my own mindset, but I know I'm good and I know my bounderies. I will sometimes handicap myself to test my skill like only using a pistol, or using the bolt action for a one hit kill instead of a semi auto one and going for headshots. If I know i'm a good sniper then I feel better about myself, and it makes the game more fun. I'm not craving a win, and I don't care if I lose, I will help out the noob who just started playing wether they suck or they just need a few pointers.

Now I have no problem with using the tools that you have at your disposal but it depends on how you use those tools that coun't. I was called a noob in Resistance 2 yesterday because I used the Ring Of Life as a medic (it makes a ring that regenerates the helth of anyone in the circle) when me and 4 other people (this is Co-Op by the way) where about to get owr asses kicked by about 50 enemies that rushed us, so I put up the ring of life and continued to heal my teammates. And some guy got mad at me and just started swearing his ass off saying that I'm a noob because aparently the medic is supposed to just be a battle class to this brit fag (no offence to any of you british people it was just a description). So this guy just goes on and on about how I suck, then he quits, I don't see how someone can get so rilled up about this, and thats what seems to happen to people who are obssed with winning, it's pretty sad acually.

Now i'm fine with people using the shotgun as long as they arent using it in the senario i already explained. But spawn camping is something that is just stupid, it gives the oposing team no chance to do anything and is "unhonorable", I can't really explain it but you guys should understand the concept I'm getting at.

I play fare and give the oping team a chance at beating me and I even help them out if they win or lose, I play gentlemanly, thats pretty much the best way to describe it.
 

Ginnipe

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Flour said:
I remember that article, and I also remember it very differently than what I have seen on that website.
It's been heavily edited, a year ago is was longer, more arrogant and didn't end with:
In the end, playing to win ends up accomplishing much more than just winning. Playing to win is how one improves. Continuous self-improvement is what all of this is really about, anyway. I submit that ultimate goal of the "playing to win" mindset is ironically not just to win...but to improve. So practice, improve, play with discipline, and Play to Win.
The whole article basically says "if you're playing and having fun, you're doing it wrong", something I completely disagree with. Games should be fun, not some second job.
Isn't the definition of a game, an activity meant to be enjoyed. Thats how I see it, this guy really needs to get a life.
 

manaman

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Sep 2, 2007
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I rarely play with friends, and never online.

I do not play online because it seems the vast majority of people cannot have fun playing a game unless they are winning. Ridiculous I know, but I do play to have fun, and the game really stops being fun when he a-holes are doing every cheap and dirty trick to win.

I know I can do the same, and sometimes I do, but then the game starts to feel more like work. As in no longer fun when all I am worried about is the kill to death ratio, or time alive, or just sheer kill numbers.

Then you have all the 13 year old kids that seem to make up the majority playing from around the world each trying to out squeak a new curse word over their peers.

Playing with my friends in only marginally better. I am many times more into games then they are. They could be considered casual gamers. So usually when we play it is either co-op or I am winning. Usually after the first hour or so of us playing the comments start about me, and it starts to sap some of the fun out of the game.
 

Nutcase

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Dec 3, 2008
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D_987 said:
Nutcase said:
Your use of "self-proclaimed expert" is a stand-in for "not an expert". Which you also spelled out elsewhere, and you are obviously wrong on that.

His expert status depends on his expertise, not what random people on this or any other thread say.
Define "expertise" within a gaming context then. You can't, because unless a game has been specifically designed to be played in a certain way there will always be someone better. The person even admits to using underhand tactics to win; something anyone could do. Its not a question of "I'm an expert", its a question of "I'm prepared to stoop to these lows in order to win". An expert would be someone that creates the games themselves, and thus understands the mechanisms beyond that of a player.
You mean, like a game designer who specializes in multiplayer balancing?
 

Nutcase

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Et3rnalLegend64 said:
Please don't let yourself degenerate into flaming (not saying you are yet). Now, we don't have a "bone to pick" with him.
Could have fooled me.
But can you back up why you believe his words are absolute truth
Never said anything to that effect. I think he's wrong about at least two things in that article.
and that he is an expert "period"
The usual way to find that out would be to look at the CV of the person in question. And, if applicable, published writing.
and how we are "obviously wrong" when we give our opinion?
I said D_987 is obviously wrong when he says Sirlin is not an expert.
Besides the fact that he is a tournament level player that is. That just means that he is exceptionally skilled or at least knows the tactics he needs to win when he plays.
It sounds like you'd really like to understate the meaning of tournament success but it's too obvious to be understated.
It does not make the rest of us fools who don't know what we're saying,
Wouldn't you agree that a person offering opinions about something he doesn't know about is a fool?
so I'd like if you don't claim anything along those lines again. Sirlin responds to disagreements on his own article in that way, and it really just bugs me. On that note, don't you believe that his tone is a good bit past arrogant as well? I am honestly asking. This isn't flamebait and I'm not making fun of Sirlin. Forget his expertise, self proclaimed or not. Don't you think his tone is unnecessary?
No, no problem with tone. I concentrate on the content, which is some of the best available on the subject of how to win at multiplayer games. (If you can find something better, feel free to link!)