Poll: What is the Big Deal With Bloody Shakespeare?!?!

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Trivun

Stabat mater dolorosa
Dec 13, 2008
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interspark said:
when i was a kid id sit in class blocking out the noise of the teacher droning on about macbeth, subtly dreading the aweful truth that, statistically speaking, one day id probably turn into a boring sod like "them" and begin to actually like this crap too!

although here i am, approaching my 18th birthday and it seems i worried for nothing, i still think its all crap and shakespear is still at the top of my "people to slap if i ever go back in time" list, but what about all the other escapist users? what do you think of shakespear's works?
You, my friend, can't even spell Shakespeare's name correctly. Your use of grammar and spelling is absolutely atrocious, and I can barely make out half of what you type. All of which leads me to the inevitable conclusion that you need to pay more attention in English lessons, and also actually bother to learn about Shakespeare and his works. Otherwise, I think you are definitely on the fast track to failing that class.

Actually try and care about it, for Io's sake. Hell, just read Titus Andronicus. It has the sort of blood-soaked gore-splattered storyline (including accidental cannibalism and the deaths of almost everyone at the end) that only Tarantino, Roth, or Von Trier could come up with nowadays. I think that should be enough to shock you out of your ignorant and stupid delusion that Shakespeare is boring...
 

Trivun

Stabat mater dolorosa
Dec 13, 2008
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MrPop said:
I enjoyed it at school.

The Merchant of Venice was great. I felt sorry for Shylock even if his actions may have seemed a bit extreme. Those bloody Christians that looked down on him yet needed his services. And his daughter. Pft. What a ***** (Stealing the money).
Oh, I agree, Shylock was very much a sympathetic villain in the end. I think it was Al Pacino who played him in the film version a few years back, and that was apparently a great portrayal of the sympathetic side while keeping the character's nastiness to some degree. I never saw that film, nor studied the play, but last year I saw a student performance at my university, and although Shylock was shown as the villain of the piece, the portrayal really did work to show him as someone being taken advantage of, bullied and browbeaten, and the guy playing Shylock did such a great job of that. I was actually really affected emotionally, and it usually takes a hell of a lot to do that for me. Judos to that actor, I say, and kudos to Shakespeare for writing such a deliciously complex character :D.
 

asgardmothership

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Jan 17, 2010
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It has already been mentioned but bears reiterating - ShakespearE E thats an E on the end, surely if you're going to set on the greatest playwright of all time you can atleast spell his name right.

*Clears throat* Much better, there. Right, to some explanation.

Clearly you never had any teachers which actually inspired you when it comes to great works of literature, a teacher really would have to work hard to actually 'drone' on about Macbeth since it contains hideous hags which manipulate the protagonist, as much graphic violence and blood as Gears of War, and of course Lady Macbeth whose lust for power drives her husband to murder. Yet, beyond a certain point the evil becomes so intense that she starts seeing things, specifically blood on her hands, she is driven insane by her the warped evil of her own mind and in a crecendo of her own terror clashing with malevolent and burning desire for power she slits her own throat. Could be F.E.A.R, Dead Space or Silent Hill right there.

But this is beside the point. Shakespeare is, as many have pointed out in this thread alone, an extremely intelligent writer. His works are meticulously put together. This is not to say his original, by no means, he pilfered every story from history, greek literature or whatever he could find. However, what he does with it is unmatched. Every sentence can be analysed and had mutliple meanings, his characters while a bit uneven admittedly, are fascinating. Take the classic, Hamlet. Now, is Hamlet insane? You could argue, legitimately, either way. Some have argued that he does indeed go insane, his madness is too convincing and unnecessary for what he requires it for in the story. Also, his actions lead Ophelia to her death, would a sane person let it get that far?

These are just some very minor examples and are not representative of everything that Shakespeare is about. His plays are very varied after all. Given the time that we live, to be honest, his comedy and history plays fall flat on their face, but not everything can endure. That said, the truely great plays endure, because they deal with universal themes, as relevant now as then, and 2000 years before that.
Where is the line at which a person is mad?
Are we locked by fate into a single course of action or can we genuinely choose?
Should you hate it if you're uncle marries your mother? (Yes, you should.)

Is it more noble to suffer the outrageous fortune of life, or is it actually braver to face that which lies beyond death? This one in particular is incredibly relevant, and for its time, extremely contravertial. The church was teaching that it was unacceptable to take your own life, and here is a protagonist (Hamlet) in his famous soliloque, contemplating whether non existance or even hell beyond this life is preferable to the torture of life itslef - is there a greater issue for a mortal person???

Now, this probably wont convince you, teachers doing a crappy job have pushed you too far the other way. You have to be willing to engage with these things, work at it. A Shakespeare play is not an action flick, you will not be spoon fed the good stuff. Now, if you genuinely have an open mind, watch Kenneth Brannagh's Hamlet - actually seeing brilliant actors understand what they are saying, acting it out, it's no longer a struggle to comprehend what is going on. A few students in a classroom stumbling through the dialogue is no way to understand it.

This may come across as arrogant, but it is not intended to be so: but unfortantely, if you say that Shakespeare is no big deal, or nothing special, or rubbish, you have, actually, missed the point. Not all his plays are amazing, some of them are quite dull actually. Not all the jokes still work, but as an entity his (better) plays are astounding, meticulously constructed, thought through, intricate and clever dialgoue, wit, complexity and they grapple with the most fundemental issues of life.

If you're still reading, lets do some proper analysing of that famous passage I mentioned, my personal favourite.

To be or not to be - that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And, by opposing, end them.

This is what I was discussing earlier, is it braver to take your own life, or endure life itself?

To die, to sleep
No more -and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to - 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished.


Here he is relishing that release, that sleep which death might bring.

To die, to sleep
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.
There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of disprized love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,


Hamlet pauses, WAIT, what if you dreamed in that sleep? Ie. Hell. So here it is, the rub, the reason we do not immidiately kill ourselves now, because we fear what lies beyond.
Think Bender from Futurama - "If I thought I had to go through a whole other life I would kill myself right now!"


So here, because of that fear we endure all manner of unpleasant things in life, why?:

But that the dread of something after death,
That dread of something after death, dread. that undiscovered country (Star Trek VI)

The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all


Here, with his revelation to himself and his audience, he brands us all cowards, we continue to play at life, to act in a certain way, to endure the hardships in whatever form they come, because we do not have the balls to stare death in the face and go "Come on then, take me you *****!"

This is not boring, Hamlet, and by extension Shakespeare is grappling with LIFE, mortality, the very crux of what makes us human!

The play's the thing!


PS. This post though long was rushed, maybe a longer thread is needed, for what What IS the big deal with Shakespeare (or more accurately, why he is a big deal) I have to do this sort of thing alot in my degree and if I had longer I would do a better job.

Thanks for reading :D
 

ultimateownage

This name was cool in 2008.
Feb 11, 2009
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interspark said:
when When i I was a kid id I'd sit in class blocking out the noise of the teacher droning on about macbeth Macbeth, subtly dreading the aweful awful truth that, statistically speaking (That isn't statistically speaking. -UO), one day id I'd probably turn into a boring sod like "them" 'them' (Pointless quotation marks. -UO) and begin to actually like this crap too!
(A paragraph with one sentence? -UO)

although Although here i I am, approaching my 18th birthday and it seems i I worried for nothing, i I still think its it's all crap and shakespear Shakespeare is still at the top of my "people to slap if i ever go back in time" list, but what about all the other escapist users? what do you think of shakespear's Shakespeare's works?
You obviously hate it because you are shite at English. Don't judge English literature until you can write properly yourself. You had no capitalisation, a full stop a paragraph, wrong terms and barely any apostrophe's. I don't believe you're eighteen, I'm fourteen and I can type better than you.
 

milna64

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May 6, 2009
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imo. I think the stories he wrote are some of the best ever written and in the context of times it was written, were probably even better. However, I don't have the patience to read anything he's written because it takes too long trying to figure out what he's saying in todays english. I just don't want to read them enough to put in the time and energy. Maybe if someone rewrote them in modern english, I'd make the effort... anyone up for it? :p
 

Usurpurus

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Oct 12, 2009
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I personally hate all of his works, but it is easy to see how English teachers and the like quietly masturbate while reading them...
 

Vohn_exel

Residential Idiot
Oct 24, 2008
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The plays that I have read of his are pretty interesting. I'm quite fond of his work, I think he's pretty good. I really liked MacBeth if only because I'm also "not born of woman." I'm not putting a spoiler on there because seriously, the story is older then most families.
 

samstewiefisher

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Nov 30, 2009
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CJ1145 said:
Your lack of grammar, good sir, combined with your frequent misspellings and deduced lack of intelligence, has led me to believe that you are a ninny! A twit! In other words, a quite silly man that I shall spend no more time talking to. Good day, sir!
Well said Sir!
 

wfpdk

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May 8, 2008
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i think that he's really just one of those things, that seems to be just a name for people to through out there and think that it makes them sound sophisticated, like the guy from post# 2. i haven't read all his works because i've read three and they all sucked, a mid summers night dream was stupid, in hamlet people didn't know when to stfu, and Romeo and Juliet was, at best, a B rate romantic-comedy. btw, inventing words doesn't make you a good writer, it means he couldn't think of a word so he made one up, and that's just flutigris writing if you ask me.
 

Sparrow

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Feb 22, 2009
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A person that is ignorant toward Shakespeare has terrible grammar. I wonder, is there something in that?

The man created literary ideas and plots that we use today in modern society. Regardless of whether or not you enjoy his writing, he was quite a genius. He also banged ALOT of women, if certain sources are to be believed.
 

molesgallus

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Sep 24, 2008
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CJ1145 said:
Your lack of grammar, good sir, combined with your frequent misspellings and deduced lack of intelligence, has led me to believe that you are a ninny! A twit! In other words, a quite silly man that I shall spend no more time talking to. Good day, sir!
What this guy said...
 

wordsmith

TF2 Group Admin
May 1, 2008
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First, to dispense with the "On topic" crap-

In my opinion, one of the greatest wordsmiths to have ever lived, as many people have already stated. He was a major part of putting theatre on the map, and for people to be reading his scripts 400 years later? He's definitely done something right. A Midsummer Night's Dream is one of my favourite plays, done properly it's a genuinely side-splitting play. Having said that, I've seen Hamlet (written as a tragedy) performed to the same standard, so I think it's more about the base than the actual content.

Now, one point I would like to drag out-

interspark said:
when i was a kid id sit in class blocking out the noise of the teacher droning on about macbeth
Mr Montmorency said:
my school made us read fucking Much Ado About Nothing
Dr. Awesome Face said:
That same year we had to read the Merchant of Venice
Think about the first time you played your favourite game. Now, imagine if someone had forced you to sit down in front of the screen, forced you to start playing it, and then told you had to play it in a certain way. I'm pretty sure you'd end up *hating* the game, not because it's a bad game or because you don't like the game itself, but because you've been shepherded into playing it in a way that you wouldn't usually. I think it's the same with Shakespeare. The Merchant of Venice was something my mum read to me as a kid, complete with the scary voices when Shylock demanded the pound of flesh. She made Shakespeare interesting, I started picking them up myself, so when I got to the usual "Sit the fuck down and read this" stage, I already knew the stories enough to be able to see them as they were - plays. They were never meant to be read as novels, much less analysed. I remember talking through Hamlet with my English teacher, the gravedigger scene (the best scene in any of his plays imo). She was banging on about how the gravedigger's humour in the face of death represented all this stuff, I just said "He's written this for an audience. Couldn't it just be to get cheap laughs?" Nope, apparently he had a literary motive >.>

Point of the matter is this: If you're forced to do anything, you won't enjoy it. If you are given media in a form that it's not intended to be in, you won't enjoy it. Schools have ruined it for everyone.
 

Yarpie

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Jun 24, 2010
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I'd say his work is something that grows on you. I have been taking a course in the history of English literature, and I got to say that the more you learn about the impact his works had, the more you grow to appreciate them. I don't think it is the best stuff ever written, but his contribution to literature can't really be denied.
 

Keava

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Mar 1, 2010
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Just... go away... please. Disappear, cease existing. Whatever.

If not Shakespeare, loads of modern day books would never existed. He created the archetypes of characters, tropes, settings that became a standard in literature. Furthermore his craftsmanship with words allowed him to wrap the serious issues of civilization, into a form that even peasants could understand, making it light and funny at the surface.

Maybe its true what they say about the current days youth, that they are to impatient to manage to go through any form of text if it doesn't involve instant, mindless action with explosions every 5 seconds for no reason at all.

Plays like Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, King Lear, Othello, Midsummer Night's Dream, etc. are still fresh even after all those years, and they fit our modern culture as well as they did back when they were written.
To not be ignorant, and to be able to understand todays literature you need to know his works as much as you need to know the Greek dramas.
 

TheTaco007

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Sep 10, 2009
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interspark said:
when i was a kid id sit in class blocking out the noise of the teacher droning on about macbeth, subtly dreading the aweful truth that, statistically speaking, one day id probably turn into a boring sod like "them" and begin to actually like this crap too!

although here i am, approaching my 18th birthday and it seems i worried for nothing, i still think its all crap and shakespear is still at the top of my "people to slap if i ever go back in time" list, but what about all the other escapist users? what do you think of shakespear's works?
Approaching your 18th birthday? "When you were a kid?" Buddy, if you're not even 18, you're still a kid. 18 is not "old."
Honestly if you can't appreciate literature, don't get mad at people who can, just because of your shortcomings.
Why would you want to slap Shakespeare? For writing fantastic plays? Might as well go and slap Da Vinci for painting well.

It's people like you that are the reason the world is in the shape it is right now. GTFO of our planet.
 

SnakeF

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Apr 25, 2009
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Mr Montmorency said:
Apparently he's written comedy. I've never laughed once. Instead of reading some interesting material, my school made us read fucking Much Ado About Nothing, so we spend a sizeable chunk of time trying to translate the old English.

We could have read Fight Club, or Jumper. Something marginally interesting. And legible.
Much ado about Nothing is one of his greatest works, admittedly I didn't understand parts of it the first read through. But I disagree with you on the not being funny part I laughed quite a bit at the Night Watchmen. Also: your choice of books that you could have read is terrible. I've read Fight Club and thought it was utter shit.
 

asinann

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Apr 28, 2008
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Try skipping the plays and read his sonnets, those are a much better gauge of his writing.
 

luke10123

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Jan 9, 2010
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There's more to Shakespeare than just 'Macbeth' and 'Romeo & Juliet' etc

Anyone ever read 'Othello'? It's sooo clever and intelligently written compared to almost anything you'll ever read. People just can't seem to like Shakespeare because they struggle with English (I'm looking at you USA (mostly)). It's the sort of thing you have to persevere to get the best out of it. Kinda like 'Trainspotting' come to think on it...