Poll: What turns you off about MMOs?
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I agree with that. WOW isn't even a game built entirely from scratch, it's like a sequal or something. That isn't to say you can't enjoy playing it ofc.USSR said:
hmmmm i've never found that with gnomes more with undead, but for me when i made a character on the allience everyone seemed to have not gone through puberty yetBhaalspawn said:
The Grind=Money is an intentional part of the MMO-Trap. What I call "the illusion of progress".
You grind to unlock bigger numbers. The first "half" (if can apply a mathematical limit to a game with no definitive "end") of the game is spent acquiring skills. This is essentially "training" and the only point in the game where you make actual progress.
After a certain point, the focus changes and you use said skills to start acquiring items not out of luxury, but necessity. You will repeat this process until you quit or the game server shuts down.
This is the interesting thing about MMOs: The game offers no definitive end.
A game without a real definitive end, (either through victory or loss) means no closure.
So instead of a game, it ultimately becomes a habit, and then possibly an addiction.
Before I continue, I am not just picking on World of Warcraft here. This model is true of every single MMO I have tried, including Ragnarok, Dofus, Runescape, Maple Story and others. The gimmick is different, but the model is the same.
Ultimately, there just isn't a whole lot to do in most MMOs. There are essentially 3 missions: "Go there." "Kill them." "Fetch these."
The gameplay never once evolves beyond its original premise in the slightest. That would not be so bad in in theory (the mark of a good game is one where you are required to master your skills), but it's uniquely problematic in a game where you are required to spend a tremendous amount of time to accomplish anything.
And then game asks you to do the same exact task, with the same exact skills in the same exact manner with your only reward being the ability to DO IT ALL AGAIN.
Thus, it's all an illusion that you are making progress, because you are not. You are counting to infinity, being "rewarded" with the privilege to keep doing so.
"Harder" simply means scaling the game up a bit. You will fight new models of enemies with bigger numbers.
To use the more recent example: Not a single fight in WoW ever became technically "harder" except for the artificial handicap that was equipment, which I could only solve through GRINDING MORE.
I never used my skills in new scenarios that made me think (with the sole exception of PvP, which is an entirely different issue). It was actually appalling that people were constantly cocking it up, because every single scenario can be beaten with a flowchart.
You might get fooled by a gimmick, but make one or two little adjustments, and you are left with a game that has a huge void of pointless grind punctuated with moments of creativity; Just enough morsels to keep the average player fooled into continuing.
After I finished my 2 week trial of WoW (I saved the "best" for last during my little MMO study) convinced that there are two major reasons why anyone would subject themselves to this for months at a time:
1) It's psychologically controlling. We instinctively respond positively to completing tasks it seems, and MMOs are full of easy tasks with deceptively hard (equipment or party requirement) prerequisites. Working towards an item or finishing a dungeon is rewarding to say the least. If the game had closure, this might have meaning. However, since your successes are temporary at best, the process goes on.
It certainly was not because the game itself was consistently fun. I listened to Ventrilo channels and chat logs, and most of the people seemed to be mentally exhausted or bored, only becoming excited when they finished grinding for their latest shiny, then relapsing into relative lethargy.
It's a fact that the amount of time spent grinding ensures that this trend is the norm, not the exception. Remember: the game company makes continuous profits off of you by deliberately wasting your time.
2) Social connections. Friends can make damn near anything better (or to be accurate, more bearable). Enough said.
You grind to unlock bigger numbers. The first "half" (if can apply a mathematical limit to a game with no definitive "end") of the game is spent acquiring skills. This is essentially "training" and the only point in the game where you make actual progress.
After a certain point, the focus changes and you use said skills to start acquiring items not out of luxury, but necessity. You will repeat this process until you quit or the game server shuts down.
This is the interesting thing about MMOs: The game offers no definitive end.
A game without a real definitive end, (either through victory or loss) means no closure.
So instead of a game, it ultimately becomes a habit, and then possibly an addiction.
Before I continue, I am not just picking on World of Warcraft here. This model is true of every single MMO I have tried, including Ragnarok, Dofus, Runescape, Maple Story and others. The gimmick is different, but the model is the same.
Ultimately, there just isn't a whole lot to do in most MMOs. There are essentially 3 missions: "Go there." "Kill them." "Fetch these."
The gameplay never once evolves beyond its original premise in the slightest. That would not be so bad in in theory (the mark of a good game is one where you are required to master your skills), but it's uniquely problematic in a game where you are required to spend a tremendous amount of time to accomplish anything.
And then game asks you to do the same exact task, with the same exact skills in the same exact manner with your only reward being the ability to DO IT ALL AGAIN.
Thus, it's all an illusion that you are making progress, because you are not. You are counting to infinity, being "rewarded" with the privilege to keep doing so.
"Harder" simply means scaling the game up a bit. You will fight new models of enemies with bigger numbers.
To use the more recent example: Not a single fight in WoW ever became technically "harder" except for the artificial handicap that was equipment, which I could only solve through GRINDING MORE.
I never used my skills in new scenarios that made me think (with the sole exception of PvP, which is an entirely different issue). It was actually appalling that people were constantly cocking it up, because every single scenario can be beaten with a flowchart.
You might get fooled by a gimmick, but make one or two little adjustments, and you are left with a game that has a huge void of pointless grind punctuated with moments of creativity; Just enough morsels to keep the average player fooled into continuing.
After I finished my 2 week trial of WoW (I saved the "best" for last during my little MMO study) convinced that there are two major reasons why anyone would subject themselves to this for months at a time:
1) It's psychologically controlling. We instinctively respond positively to completing tasks it seems, and MMOs are full of easy tasks with deceptively hard (equipment or party requirement) prerequisites. Working towards an item or finishing a dungeon is rewarding to say the least. If the game had closure, this might have meaning. However, since your successes are temporary at best, the process goes on.
It certainly was not because the game itself was consistently fun. I listened to Ventrilo channels and chat logs, and most of the people seemed to be mentally exhausted or bored, only becoming excited when they finished grinding for their latest shiny, then relapsing into relative lethargy.
It's a fact that the amount of time spent grinding ensures that this trend is the norm, not the exception. Remember: the game company makes continuous profits off of you by deliberately wasting your time.
2) Social connections. Friends can make damn near anything better (or to be accurate, more bearable). Enough said.
This. Just, entirely...this. I enjoy working IRL because I feel useful and get paid. There's nothing useful about an MMO. It's all for nothing. No thanks.TheFacelessOne said:
I play EVE, I have placed so much time and money into the game its like I will have wasted so much with my character, im an absolute zero for giving myself to a game that doesnt care about me, but i learned every aspect of the game and I find what I like...... But one thing I hate in other MMORPG's is that you cant fight a monster effective with tactics, potions/magic, and slashing and rolling away from a monster or beast that is coming at you.............Wait...Monster Hunter does that so I guess the only game that is an actual MMO is that one. I hope that Monster Hunter Frontier thats coming out in Japan on the Xbox360 will come west and kick every single MMO's dick in the dirt.......
i can't stand the constant grinding. its the type of thing that you fool yourself into believing is fun, when really all it is is a mindnumbing way to pass the time, and when you stop and look back on it, all i can think is, "wow, i wasted all that time, and it wasn't even all that fun..."
Let me get this out in the open.
I love world of warcraft.
The game is fun enough to make me keep coming back, keep paying the subscription fee, keep raiding and questing and instancing. It's really cool and I loved playing it when I was playing it.
Why do I not play it anymore?
Because it takes too much time.
I've been playing the remake of Pokemon Gold and Final Fantasy 7 the past month. I've clocked in approximately 30+ hours in each and am nowhere near the end. But here's the thing. THERE IS AN END TO THOSE GAMES. You finish at some point. In world of warcraft, clocking in 30+ hours might get you to level 30ish, if you want to have fun and explore, or level 60-70 if you go through a massive grind sandwich.
As much fun as it is, I had clocked in 29 days worth of game time (you can actually type "/played" to see how much time you've wasted) before I realized the amount of fun I was having was indirectly affecting my grades, social life, and my ability to play other games. If there was a way to enjoy the journey of taking a character from level 1 to level 80 in WoW in at least 1/10th of the time... maybe even 1/100th of the time, then I'd do it. Just so I can say "I've made it! I'm done."
It's too time consuming for me to continue. Other than that, I really have no problem with them.
(That being said, that's like saying 'If it wasn't for the fact that I can't leave, being in jail isn't bad.')
I love world of warcraft.
The game is fun enough to make me keep coming back, keep paying the subscription fee, keep raiding and questing and instancing. It's really cool and I loved playing it when I was playing it.
Why do I not play it anymore?
Because it takes too much time.
I've been playing the remake of Pokemon Gold and Final Fantasy 7 the past month. I've clocked in approximately 30+ hours in each and am nowhere near the end. But here's the thing. THERE IS AN END TO THOSE GAMES. You finish at some point. In world of warcraft, clocking in 30+ hours might get you to level 30ish, if you want to have fun and explore, or level 60-70 if you go through a massive grind sandwich.
As much fun as it is, I had clocked in 29 days worth of game time (you can actually type "/played" to see how much time you've wasted) before I realized the amount of fun I was having was indirectly affecting my grades, social life, and my ability to play other games. If there was a way to enjoy the journey of taking a character from level 1 to level 80 in WoW in at least 1/10th of the time... maybe even 1/100th of the time, then I'd do it. Just so I can say "I've made it! I'm done."
It's too time consuming for me to continue. Other than that, I really have no problem with them.
(That being said, that's like saying 'If it wasn't for the fact that I can't leave, being in jail isn't bad.')
If you hadn't noticed, there is a poll option for those who like MMOs, therefore, my opinion is as at home here as you rown. I'm not saying that you have no right to hate MMOs; that's fine, your opinion, don't particularly care. But you're on a forum, expressing your opinion. That gives me every right to disagree with you, and if you don't like that, then don't read or reply.Zorpheus said:
What do you mean, "one reference"? One reference would have been parroting that hack once - not throughout your entire speech. As for your comment about being obnoxious, it's not out of my way at all, considering I've got my English 107 paper done and am relaxing on the computer. You complain about MMOs in your spare time, and I counter people's arguments for shits and giggles in mine.
Now I bid you adieu, as I foresee this quickly turning into a battle of personal insults, and I'd rather not have that. Have a nice day/evening.
The same could be said to you. Disagreeing is one thing, but you went out of your way to insult and discredit every point of my opinion.Flying-Emu said:
I used one of his terms throughout the entire thing. Every other written word was my own. Parroting? Hardly. I remind you that you were the one that opened this up into a personal affair. Your entire 'rebuttal' is barbed with ad hominem attacks and contempt, and is anything but peaceful in intent. If you don't want a debate to devolve into personal insults, don't start it out with them.Flying-Emu said:
I like MMo's, but the only one I've played consistently is Guild Wars. It is also the one that most connects you to the story, and isn't about just running around leveling. Technically, you can actually beat Guild Wars, sinc ethey don't do much contenet updates any more. Plus I just had to pay for the box fees of guild wars, and I got a thousand hours of gameplay out of it.
I like MMOs to a certain extent. I played WoW for a few years and enjoyed it because when i was starting, everything seemed solid, it was a new experience, and the world was vast and waiting for me to explore it. Of course during the later end of my playing it, as with other MMOs, the community was terrible, Sitting in the channels talking crap to each other, intentionally giving newbie players false info, then people complain about how no one can play the game right. I can deal with grinding/questing, but it's mostly the assholes that ruin things for everyone else for attention/griefing.
I enjoy MMOG's and MMORPG's (There is a difference, but most people don't seem to notice). Recently, though, I've fallen away from the MMORPG side of things. It all comes with the critical challenge point in any given RPG. This is when leveling begins to take more than one play session, and equipment changes become more and more rare. If one is to use the carrot and stick metaphor, the critical challenge point is when the carrot becomes too far away to see most of the time. When I reach this point, boredom sets in. There's only so much to do, as other players who have passed this point are stronger than you to a point of impossibility, and lower level players have stopped being a challenge. You're kind of stuck in limbo, with only a few other players in the same region, typically not on the same quest as you (or not willing to party).
If my computer wasn't being "special" at the moment, I'd be immersing myself in non-RPG MMOG's, such as racing games or FPS's. Everyone likes to play with other people every once in a while, and there's more than enough games out there (free and paid) to suit people's tastes. Community isn't a challenge, because if you like the game itself, you should find people you like in it after a while. And if the plot sucks, do what most people do: Make your own while playing. It can actually be pretty fun...especially if you decide to be absurd in your own mind.
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Side note: What really amuses me is that a lot people will declare MMOG's horrible wastes of time, without ever really devoting more than 4 play hours to whatever one or ones they've tried. Even more entertaining are the console FPS multiplayer gamers who call people who play MMOG's "ghey" and themselves "hardcore/ L33T", even though they're fundamentally doing the same thing.
If my computer wasn't being "special" at the moment, I'd be immersing myself in non-RPG MMOG's, such as racing games or FPS's. Everyone likes to play with other people every once in a while, and there's more than enough games out there (free and paid) to suit people's tastes. Community isn't a challenge, because if you like the game itself, you should find people you like in it after a while. And if the plot sucks, do what most people do: Make your own while playing. It can actually be pretty fun...especially if you decide to be absurd in your own mind.
-----------------------------
Side note: What really amuses me is that a lot people will declare MMOG's horrible wastes of time, without ever really devoting more than 4 play hours to whatever one or ones they've tried. Even more entertaining are the console FPS multiplayer gamers who call people who play MMOG's "ghey" and themselves "hardcore/ L33T", even though they're fundamentally doing the same thing.
Most of what you put up there. It isn't really any one thing that stresses me about MMo's, but rather the end result of me not being patient with people a couple of standard intelligence deviations below me, the incredibly uninteresting quests consuming ungodly amount of time, and often uninspired game play aimed at someone who isn't me. They just aren't fun games, and I can't justify the time expenditure to myself. But, I don't mind its existence because it can net developers money they can put towards games I do want.
All of the poll options really.
But most of, the people. I don't care if they're dicks or nice, in my RPG type games I like the single player experience.
That way, when you're the "Chosen one" you actually are.
But most of, the people. I don't care if they're dicks or nice, in my RPG type games I like the single player experience.
That way, when you're the "Chosen one" you actually are.
Playing video games is my alone time, I don't want the kind of douches that MMOs attract to intrude on that.
Also, I will forever be bitter about the fact that the next KOTOR is going to be one of them.
Also, I will forever be bitter about the fact that the next KOTOR is going to be one of them.