Poll: Whats so bad about Socialism
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No opinion one way or the other, but most people with some idea of socialism don't know what socialism truly is, if you're talking about the United States.
I think the main issue people have with Socialism is the fear that it may lead to Communism, and that it will then lead to this man [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin], despite that being a dictatorship, and not Socialism or Communism.
I myself do like the ideas of Communism, but the problem with it being that everyone wants more than everyone else. This means that once someone has total control, they will abuse that power to their own benefits and get rid of anyone who's different. Thus, we have a dictatorship which gets referred to as Communism simply to make the public think that something amazing and revolutionary has happened, when it is pretty much the absolute opposite of Socialism. As Yuri Andropov once said, "Power is corrupted by people."
I myself do like the ideas of Communism, but the problem with it being that everyone wants more than everyone else. This means that once someone has total control, they will abuse that power to their own benefits and get rid of anyone who's different. Thus, we have a dictatorship which gets referred to as Communism simply to make the public think that something amazing and revolutionary has happened, when it is pretty much the absolute opposite of Socialism. As Yuri Andropov once said, "Power is corrupted by people."
I sometimes think of Capitalism/Socialism as an axis; with a cross axis of Democracy/Authoritarianism.
Much like AD&D's Chaos/Lawful and Good/Evil.
The United States has always from it's star embraced social principles of sharing responsibility, the post office as an easy example. The early town halls, Town planning comprized of private homes, public squares, and shared use docks.
Much like D&D's Chaos/Lawful and Good/Evil.
Much like AD&D's Chaos/Lawful and Good/Evil.
The United States has always from it's star embraced social principles of sharing responsibility, the post office as an easy example. The early town halls, Town planning comprized of private homes, public squares, and shared use docks.
Much like D&D's Chaos/Lawful and Good/Evil.
Socialism, in the purest sense, refers to the ownership of all things - property, businesses and so on, by the state. This fails. Epically. I regard it as not only a grotesque economic inefficency, and thus a moral failure in that it causes misery and suffering where there should be none (simply put, the better your economy, the better-off people are, as a whole), but as a moral failure in itself, as it destroys the hard work of thousands for the greed of others.
Pure Free-Market economics, or Libertarianism, is equal in terms of failure.
Pure Free-Market economics, or Libertarianism, is equal in terms of failure.
I hate to say this, but socialists in the 19th century were pointing out that 'socialism', even at that time, had been used to refer to so many different things, that no one knew what it really meant or should attempt to reduce it to specifics. When people are ignorant to begin with, and I concede that many are, such a confusing terminology doesn't help anything. Of the myriad things that are called 'socialist', some I stand for, some I tolerate, and some I can't abide.ChaosTheory3133 said:
I want exactly as much socialism as there exists market demand for. However you define it.
Yeah its called Socialism.Maze1125 said:
Communism = bad
Capitalism = Not as bad
Socialism = best of both.
Because to steal from one to give to another party that did nothing to warrant it is wrong? I always use this quote from Basiat to sum up my views in a sentance or two
"Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the
beneficiaries are spared the shame and danger that their acts would
otherwise involve... But how is this legal plunder to be identified?
Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to
them and gives it to the other persons to whom it doesn't belong.
See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing
what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then
abolish that law without delay ... No legal plunder; this is the
principle of justice, peace, order, stability, harmony and logic."
"Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the
beneficiaries are spared the shame and danger that their acts would
otherwise involve... But how is this legal plunder to be identified?
Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to
them and gives it to the other persons to whom it doesn't belong.
See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing
what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then
abolish that law without delay ... No legal plunder; this is the
principle of justice, peace, order, stability, harmony and logic."
No, it isn't.MikeOfThunder said:
Socialism = Pure State Control of the Economy.
Libertarianism = Pure Free Market Economy.
Capitalism = Mixture of the two.
Communsim =
To back up my buddy (jman)AvsJoe said:
Last Updated: Monday, October 15, 2007 | 4:09 PM ET
CBC News
The average wait time for a Canadian awaiting surgery or other medical treatment is now 18.3 weeks, a new high, according to a report released Monday.
That's an increase of 97 per cent over 14 years, the report says.
A patient undergoes MRI screening. The median wait for an MRI across Canada is 10.1 weeks, according to the report.
(CBC)
"Canadians wait longer than Americans, Germans, and Swedes for cardiac care, although not as long as New Zealanders or the British," it reads. "Economists attempting to quantify the cost of this waiting time have estimated it to amount to $1,100 to $5,600 annually per patient."
The report, the 17th annual edition of Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada, is published by the Fraser Institute, an independent Canadian research organization.
"Despite government promises and the billions of dollars funnelled into the Canadian health-care system, the average patient waited more than 18 weeks in 2007 between seeing their family doctor and receiving the surgery or treatment they required," said Nadeem Esmail, director of Health System Performance Studies at the Fraser Institute and co-author of the report, in a release.
The total median waiting time for patients between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, increased to 18.3 weeks from 17.8 weeks in 2006, according to the report.
"The small increase in waiting time between 2006 and 2007 is primarily the result of an increase in the first wait – the wait between visiting a general practitioner and attending a consultation with a specialist," the report says.
The report also found that total wait times increased in six provinces: Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador. British Columbia, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island lowered their wait times.
Waiting times best in Ontario
Ontario recorded the shortest wait time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment) at 15.0 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19.0 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada.
Despite have one of the shorter waits among the provinces, Quebec's 19.4-week wait shows that despite more money directed at fixing the problem, there hasn't been any improvement, Tasha Kheiriddin, the Quebec director of the Fraser Institute, told CBC News Monday.
She says Quebec has invested millions of dollars over the past few years in efforts to reduce wait times, but that inefficiencies in the public system are proving to be obstacles.
"What this tells us is spending more money in the system does not decrease wait times. In fact it's the opposite result, so we have to look at other solutions," she said.
Across Canada, the wait time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 9.2 weeks from the 8.8 weeks recorded in 2006. The shortest waits for specialist consultations were in Ontario (7.6 weeks), Manitoba (8.2 weeks) and British Columbia (8.8 weeks).
The longest waits for consultation with a specialist were recorded in New Brunswick (14.7 weeks), Newfoundland and Labrador (13.5 weeks) and Prince Edward Island (12.7 weeks).
The wait time between a specialist consultation and treatment – the second stage of waiting – increased to 9.1 weeks from 9.0 weeks in 2006. The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits were found in Ontario (7.3 weeks), Alberta (8.9 weeks) and Quebec (9.4 weeks), while the longest waits were in Saskatchewan (16.5 weeks), Nova Scotia (13.6 weeks) and Manitoba (12.0 weeks).
The shortest total waits (between referral by a general practitioner and treatment) occurred in medical oncology (4.2 weeks), radiation oncology (5.7 weeks) and elective cardiovascular surgery (8.4 weeks).
Patients endured the longest waits between a GP referral and orthopedic surgery (38.1 weeks), plastic surgery (34.8 weeks) and neurosurgery (27.2 weeks).
Nova Scotia best for CT scans
Patients also experienced significant waiting times for various diagnostic tests across Canada, such as computed tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound scans.
The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.8 weeks. British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia had the shortest waits for CT scans (4.0 weeks), with Manitoba experiencing the highest wait (8.0 weeks).
The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks. Patients in Ontario experienced the shortest wait for an MRI (7.8 weeks), while Newfoundland and Labrador residents waited the longest (20.0 weeks).
CBC News
The average wait time for a Canadian awaiting surgery or other medical treatment is now 18.3 weeks, a new high, according to a report released Monday.
That's an increase of 97 per cent over 14 years, the report says.
A patient undergoes MRI screening. The median wait for an MRI across Canada is 10.1 weeks, according to the report.
(CBC)
"Canadians wait longer than Americans, Germans, and Swedes for cardiac care, although not as long as New Zealanders or the British," it reads. "Economists attempting to quantify the cost of this waiting time have estimated it to amount to $1,100 to $5,600 annually per patient."
The report, the 17th annual edition of Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada, is published by the Fraser Institute, an independent Canadian research organization.
"Despite government promises and the billions of dollars funnelled into the Canadian health-care system, the average patient waited more than 18 weeks in 2007 between seeing their family doctor and receiving the surgery or treatment they required," said Nadeem Esmail, director of Health System Performance Studies at the Fraser Institute and co-author of the report, in a release.
The total median waiting time for patients between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, increased to 18.3 weeks from 17.8 weeks in 2006, according to the report.
"The small increase in waiting time between 2006 and 2007 is primarily the result of an increase in the first wait – the wait between visiting a general practitioner and attending a consultation with a specialist," the report says.
The report also found that total wait times increased in six provinces: Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador. British Columbia, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island lowered their wait times.
Waiting times best in Ontario
Ontario recorded the shortest wait time overall (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment) at 15.0 weeks, followed by British Columbia (19.0 weeks) and Quebec (19.4 weeks). Saskatchewan (27.2 weeks), New Brunswick (25.2 weeks) and Nova Scotia (24.8 weeks) recorded the longest waits in Canada.
Despite have one of the shorter waits among the provinces, Quebec's 19.4-week wait shows that despite more money directed at fixing the problem, there hasn't been any improvement, Tasha Kheiriddin, the Quebec director of the Fraser Institute, told CBC News Monday.
She says Quebec has invested millions of dollars over the past few years in efforts to reduce wait times, but that inefficiencies in the public system are proving to be obstacles.
"What this tells us is spending more money in the system does not decrease wait times. In fact it's the opposite result, so we have to look at other solutions," she said.
Across Canada, the wait time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 9.2 weeks from the 8.8 weeks recorded in 2006. The shortest waits for specialist consultations were in Ontario (7.6 weeks), Manitoba (8.2 weeks) and British Columbia (8.8 weeks).
The longest waits for consultation with a specialist were recorded in New Brunswick (14.7 weeks), Newfoundland and Labrador (13.5 weeks) and Prince Edward Island (12.7 weeks).
The wait time between a specialist consultation and treatment – the second stage of waiting – increased to 9.1 weeks from 9.0 weeks in 2006. The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits were found in Ontario (7.3 weeks), Alberta (8.9 weeks) and Quebec (9.4 weeks), while the longest waits were in Saskatchewan (16.5 weeks), Nova Scotia (13.6 weeks) and Manitoba (12.0 weeks).
The shortest total waits (between referral by a general practitioner and treatment) occurred in medical oncology (4.2 weeks), radiation oncology (5.7 weeks) and elective cardiovascular surgery (8.4 weeks).
Patients endured the longest waits between a GP referral and orthopedic surgery (38.1 weeks), plastic surgery (34.8 weeks) and neurosurgery (27.2 weeks).
Nova Scotia best for CT scans
Patients also experienced significant waiting times for various diagnostic tests across Canada, such as computed tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound scans.
The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.8 weeks. British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia had the shortest waits for CT scans (4.0 weeks), with Manitoba experiencing the highest wait (8.0 weeks).
The median wait for an MRI across Canada was 10.1 weeks. Patients in Ontario experienced the shortest wait for an MRI (7.8 weeks), while Newfoundland and Labrador residents waited the longest (20.0 weeks).
This is my main problem with socialism as well: if you agree that a government is instituted from amongst the governed and with their consent, then that government is only acting legitimately when it acts with the same powers as the average citizen, i.e. you cannot force your neighbour to give you more money because you have a child, or you've fallen on hard times, so the state should not be able to exercise this power either.sneakypenguin said:
Well, I personally support some socialism of certain activities best run by the state.
Oh, and to objectors of any socialism, just out of curiosity, answer me this: why would you distrust the government to do anything but trust private corporations, who do not respond to public demands, will sacrifice about anything for profit, and will charge as much as they can get away with, to do the same better?
Oh, and to objectors of any socialism, just out of curiosity, answer me this: why would you distrust the government to do anything but trust private corporations, who do not respond to public demands, will sacrifice about anything for profit, and will charge as much as they can get away with, to do the same better?
Hmmm... my understanding of socialism is (and I stand ready to be completely corrected in this; I'm sure the point someone made about the term being over-used and never particularly accurate is a good one) is that it's a *social* rather than *economic* doctrine, involving the belief that a society has a duty of care to its members. I understand 'state control of the economy' to be communism (at least so long as the state is composed of the workers).Rolling Thunder said:
Oh, and all the people who say that British/European socialism doesn't work? Whether a system works or not is not an on/off, binary matter. There are degrees of 'working-ness', and while we might have a few problems (okay, a whole bunch of problems), things work pretty well most of the time. Claiming that any system works perfectly all the time is ridiculous, as is demanding that a system should (for all it would be nice if everyone everywhere could get decent healthcare, education, policing etc.)
I think people who are terrified of Obama being a socialist, don't seem to realize that America already has socialized programs.
Anyway, John Green said, perfectly, what I've been thinking about the Health Care debate.
Anyway, John Green said, perfectly, what I've been thinking about the Health Care debate.