Poll: Who do you hate more? Voldemort or Dolores Umbridge?

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Thaluikhain

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Thaluikhain said:
Secondly, when Voldemort takes over the Ministry (never knew if that was a UK or worldwide thing) and the Nazi parallels come out, he isn't around doing it, she's the one in charge. She changed sides, and become the one you see doing anything, whereas Voldemort is being evil offscreen.
The Ministry for Magic is said to be strictly UK, other countries apparently have different governing bodies for the Wizarding community.
Sure, but then it's also said that Voldemort taking over the Ministry means he's taken over the government of the magical world. There's never any mention of foreign powers doing anything about him, not even the possibility is raised.

Or maybe the heroes are just very parochial.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Thaluikhain said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Thaluikhain said:
Secondly, when Voldemort takes over the Ministry (never knew if that was a UK or worldwide thing) and the Nazi parallels come out, he isn't around doing it, she's the one in charge. She changed sides, and become the one you see doing anything, whereas Voldemort is being evil offscreen.
The Ministry for Magic is said to be strictly UK, other countries apparently have different governing bodies for the Wizarding community.
Sure, but then it's also said that Voldemort taking over the Ministry means he's taken over the government of the magical world. There's never any mention of foreign powers doing anything about him, not even the possibility is raised.

Or maybe the heroes are just very parochial.
It's rather heavily implied that outside things like the Tri-Wizard tournament and the World Cup of Quiddich that foreign wizards generally have little to do with each other. Even the fact that Ron's brother Bill was studying dragons abroad was considered really exceptional. So it's likely that Voldemort's antics were down played in other countries and seen as a purely local issue for the British Wizarding community.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Thaluikhain said:
Secondly, when Voldemort takes over the Ministry (never knew if that was a UK or worldwide thing) and the Nazi parallels come out, he isn't around doing it, she's the one in charge. She changed sides, and become the one you see doing anything, whereas Voldemort is being evil offscreen.
The Ministry for Magic is said to be strictly UK, other countries apparently have different governing bodies for the Wizarding community.

Gordon_4 said:
Will he get around to that before or after the S.A.S. and the Royal Marines or an MI-5 hit squad have kicked his teeth in? Voldemort wants to rule the Wizarding World, but the second he sets foot outside that small enclave then he's fucked more ways to Sunday than even the most open-minded prostitute would allow. Hell he should be fucked without doing that since the murder of British citizens on British soil is something Her Majesty's police and security forces take a very dim view.
Consider some facts. Witches and Wizards in Harry Potter's universe can make people drop dead, with no apparent cause of death. They can also control people's minds. There is a long history of witches and wizards being caught intentionally by angry villagers, because they thought it was funny that the villagers thought the magic folk could be burnt at the stake. They'd literally play along and pretend to die as a result of this, one character mentioned liked the idea so much he was "burned at the stake" dozens of times. Finally these people can erase the memories of other people, including their own kind, in fact it's so easy a talentless loser like Gilderoy Lockhart made a career of it. That is by finding talented witches and wizards who had amazing adventures, erasing those people's memories, and taking credit for their work. Peter Pettigrew leveled a city block to frame Sirius Black for his crimes and as a means of escaping punishment for his wrong doing. Muggle law enforcement and military, even special forces would be essentially powerless to stop a single witch or wizard in most cases, let alone a movement seeking world domination.
You can't mind control someone when they're a mile behind looking at your melon through a rifle scope (or better yet a Reaper drone): as I said before, Voldemort is not an enemy I would want to duel formally unless I were a player character from Warcraft or DragonAge or I was Dr. Strange because he is a dangerous individual combatant but the wand is just a conduit for him to channel incantations: it isn't a Green Lantern ring that will act of it's own accord to protect him or anything.

We fight our battles at a thousand paces now, and no Wizard in Harry Potter seems to realise this.


What I do agree with is that Umbridge is probably hated more because she's, well, more real.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Gordon_4 said:
You can't mind control someone when they're a mile behind looking at your melon through a rifle scope (or better yet a Reaper drone): as I said before, Voldemort is not an enemy I would want to duel formally unless I were a player character from Warcraft or DragonAge or I was Dr. Strange because he is a dangerous individual combatant but the wand is just a conduit for him to channel incantations: it isn't a Green Lantern ring that will act of it's own accord to protect him or anything.

We fight our battles at a thousand paces now, and no Wizard in Harry Potter seems to realise this.


What I do agree with is that Umbridge is probably hated more because she's, well, more real.
On the other hand you can't shoot someone from a mike with a sniper rifle, or bomb them with a drone if that someone very nature bug electronics out, or they can become easily imperceptible. We're talking about a group of people who compressed a house between two houses that it shared dividing walls with, who made Hogwarts, an impressive landmark of a castle, totally invisible and uninteresting to muggles. We're talking about a group with reality bending powers, where if you're at a thousand paces, you might as well be on the other side of the world looking in the wrong direction. If drones and such worked with them, then obviously their secrets would be out in seconds, instead of what we're presented with, which is that no one has the slightest clue they even exist, outside of people who were specifically read into the secret. Hell they can even make people keep secrets on pain of magical death just for attempting to spill the beans.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Gordon_4 said:
You can't mind control someone when they're a mile behind looking at your melon through a rifle scope (or better yet a Reaper drone): as I said before, Voldemort is not an enemy I would want to duel formally unless I were a player character from Warcraft or DragonAge or I was Dr. Strange because he is a dangerous individual combatant but the wand is just a conduit for him to channel incantations: it isn't a Green Lantern ring that will act of it's own accord to protect him or anything.

We fight our battles at a thousand paces now, and no Wizard in Harry Potter seems to realise this.


What I do agree with is that Umbridge is probably hated more because she's, well, more real.
On the other hand you can't shoot someone from a mike with a sniper rifle, or bomb them with a drone if that someone very nature bug electronics out, or they can become easily imperceptible. We're talking about a group of people who compressed a house between two houses that it shared dividing walls with, who made Hogwarts, an impressive landmark of a castle, totally invisible and uninteresting to muggles. We're talking about a group with reality bending powers, where if you're at a thousand paces, you might as well be on the other side of the world looking in the wrong direction. If drones and such worked with them, then obviously their secrets would be out in seconds, instead of what we're presented with, which is that no one has the slightest clue they even exist, outside of people who were specifically read into the secret. Hell they can even make people keep secrets on pain of magical death just for attempting to spill the beans.
Well most of this I find is because the books started in the late 90's long before a load of these technologies existed (also, Guns are entirely a mechanical and chemical reaction - they do not use electricity to fire) and before the great social shifts caused by the reactions to the September 11 attacks. It's why I thought the opener to the movie Half Blood Prince (I think) comes across as so dumb since the movies obviously move with the times and the Death Eaters destroy the London Millennium Footbridge with dozens of people in it. The fucking security services would be all over that like flies on shit to say nothing of all the stuff that would be flooding social media within seconds if not during the even, and eventually someone will figure it out. Even if it was just the Director General of MI-5 going to the Prime Minister and asking "What the fuck?".
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Gordon_4 said:
Well most of this I find is because the books started in the late 90's long before a load of these technologies existed (also, Guns are entirely a mechanical and chemical reaction - they do not use electricity to fire) and before the great social shifts caused by the reactions to the September 11 attacks. It's why I thought the opener to the movie Half Blood Prince (I think) comes across as so dumb since the movies obviously move with the times and the Death Eaters destroy the London Millennium Footbridge with dozens of people in it. The fucking security services would be all over that like flies on shit to say nothing of all the stuff that would be flooding social media within seconds if not during the even, and eventually someone will figure it out. Even if it was just the Director General of MI-5 going to the Prime Minister and asking "What the fuck?".
The point about electronics was more about the drones actually... Either way the Ministry, I assume the Death Eaters too, have a special division of just oblivators. Literally they go out and erase the evidence of magical mishaps that involve muggles, kind of like a magical Men in Black cover up division. You can't be all over the situation if your entire government is either in bed with covering these things up as a massive conspiracy, or so deeply penetrated by agents that the event is just erased from history totally. Besides it's fiction, where even the most plain of the recurring characters have some form of reality bending power. It's a mechanic of the narrative. I mean how come muggle radios don't pick up the wizard radio stations and such. Obviously the magical community in these books are really powerful, seeded everywhere, and can keep muggles from piecing together the smallest things about the magical community. It's a fantasical setting with a very, very tenuous connection to reality, that only applies when it's necessary for the plot.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Gordon_4 said:
Well most of this I find is because the books started in the late 90's long before a load of these technologies existed (also, Guns are entirely a mechanical and chemical reaction - they do not use electricity to fire) and before the great social shifts caused by the reactions to the September 11 attacks. It's why I thought the opener to the movie Half Blood Prince (I think) comes across as so dumb since the movies obviously move with the times and the Death Eaters destroy the London Millennium Footbridge with dozens of people in it. The fucking security services would be all over that like flies on shit to say nothing of all the stuff that would be flooding social media within seconds if not during the even, and eventually someone will figure it out. Even if it was just the Director General of MI-5 going to the Prime Minister and asking "What the fuck?".
The point about electronics was more about the drones actually... Either way the Ministry, I assume the Death Eaters too, have a special division of just oblivators. Literally they go out and erase the evidence of magical mishaps that involve muggles, kind of like a magical Men in Black cover up division. You can't be all over the situation if your entire government is either in bed with covering these things up as a massive conspiracy, or so deeply penetrated by agents that the event is just erased from history totally. Besides it's fiction, where even the most plain of the recurring characters have some form of reality bending power. It's a mechanic of the narrative. I mean how come muggle radios don't pick up the wizard radio stations and such. Obviously the magical community in these books are really powerful, seeded everywhere, and can keep muggles from piecing together the smallest things about the magical community. It's a fantasical setting with a very, very tenuous connection to reality, that only applies when it's necessary for the plot.
True, but Umbridge is total *****. Like seriously, fuck her.
 

FalloutJack

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I take umbridge with Umbridge. Evil that doesn't pretend to be anything but evil is more decent, in my book.

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Umbridge. A thousand times Umbridge. Sure, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was evil, but he was also a bit cartoonish and a had a rather sympathetic back story. Umbridge? That toad was far too real.

I'm so sad I lost all of my Harry Potter books.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Umbridge was more hateful. Voldemort was scary if anything, at least as a myth rather than the muahaha baddie he turned out to be.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Bob_McMillan said:
Still sad she hasn't suffered a painful death.
Some wackos posit that she got raped by the centaurs that carried her away, though evidence to this effect is flaky at best.
 

votemarvel

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Something has always puzzled me about Grindelwald, how did Dumbledore win their duel?

If Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and the two were reasonably matched magically, surely there would have been no way for Dumbledore to win since the former had the unbeatable wand.

Surely the power of the Elder Wand would have been broken when it was beaten.
 

Bob_McMillan

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votemarvel said:
Something has always puzzled me about Grindelwald, how did Dumbledore win their duel?

If Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and the two were reasonably matched magically, surely there would have been no way for Dumbledore to win since the former had the unbeatable wand.

Surely the power of the Elder Wand would have been broken when it was beaten.
Trickery or subterfuge of some sort is usually how it goes.

Or did they specifically say they dueled? I forget.
 

FalloutJack

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Bob_McMillan said:
Still sad she hasn't suffered a painful death.
Some wackos posit that she got raped by the centaurs that carried her away, though evidence to this effect is flaky at best.
Centaurs Say: "What? With that deformed two-legged thing? Pray not, good wizard. For life is hard, but we are not so desperate."

They'd probably play The Most Dangerous Game.
 

WhiteFangofWhoa

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Thaluikhain said:
Does he, though? Or is it just the strong vs the weak, as he said?
In Sorcerer's Stone:

'There is no good or evil. There is only power, and those too weak to seek it.'

There you have it. There's absolutely nothing he wouldn't do to maintain his immortality and power, except maybe show remorse.

Both are loathsome, but Umbridge is more 'grounded'. We've all met at least one person like her, but not so many like Voldemort. Thankfully. Voldemort got a semi-sympathetic backstory too (doesn't excuse his actions but you do at least feel for the young orphan Tom anyway), and we never got anything like that for Umbridge.
 

KissingSunlight

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Since Order of the Phoenix is my favorite Harry Potter movie, I have to go with Umbridge. The mythology was so convoluted with Voldemort that I didn't care or understood it. However, I was able to draw comparisons to what Umbridge represented to the Bush Administration.
 

Fox12

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Phasmal said:
Smithnikov said:
Phasmal said:
The guy who killed people. Like a lot of people.

I mean, yeah, Umbridge reminds people of every shitty teacher they had that hated them, but the fact that she gets more hate than the actual villain of the series has always kind of weirded me out.
Ummm, most teachers didn't inflict actual physical torture on students where I went to school, even the worst ones. They also didn't appoint the local "we're transparent supporters of a genocidal maniac" club as the school enforcers either.
Well, no, but when you're a kid it's easy to get dramatic and imagine that those evil teachers who dislike you would totally do those things if they could get away with it. She's an evil fantasy version of bad teachers.
I always saw her as the ultimate evil bureaucrat. She may not be the actual Hitler of the story, but she's definitely one of the people who would flock to him. I mean, she may not be the one making the decisions from on high, but she's the type of person who would be carrying out his actual dirty work. I'm pretty sure she actually does fulfill that role in the 7th book. Technically her job is more petty, but I can get why she's more hateable.

Edit: also, characters like Umbridge and Belatrix seem like they get pleasure from people's suffering. Voldemort seems more efficient. Unless he's trying to make an example of you, he'd probably just kill you and be done with it. He's killed more people, but he doesn't seem as perverse about it.
 

maninahat

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Rowling did a splendid job of so efficiently making you hate her; she isn't just a bully, she is a bully in the most passive aggressive, obnoxious, Nurse-Ratchet-eat-your-heart-out, tiny aheming way.