Poll: Who do you hate more? Voldemort or Dolores Umbridge?

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Smithnikov_v1legacy

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I talked with my wife who is a massive Potterverse fan about this thread. She had some more words for the "Umbridge isn't evil, you're just exaggerating crowd"

-She not only used banned dark art artifacts and spells, she ENJOYED using them.
-She ENJOYED throwing muggle born wizards to Dementors
-She kept Mad Eye Moody's eye AS A TROPHY ON HER DOOR. This would be like keeping the body part of a recently murdered, highly decorated police officer on display, basically bragging you were involved in a cop killing. That doesn't strike one as evil?

She's not "an evil teacher fantasy", she's the Potterverse's version of Grizelda Blanco (look her up)
 

FalloutJack

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I like that the community gives the token evil guy a walk in favor of hanging the ugly pink-wearing toad woman. Love it!
 

Redryhno

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WhiteFangofWar said:
Thaluikhain said:
Does he, though? Or is it just the strong vs the weak, as he said?
In Sorcerer's Stone:

'There is no good or evil. There is only power, and those too weak to seek it.'

There you have it. There's absolutely nothing he wouldn't do to maintain his immortality and power, except maybe show remorse.

Both are loathsome, but Umbridge is more 'grounded'. We've all met at least one person like her, but not so many like Voldemort. Thankfully. Voldemort got a semi-sympathetic backstory too (doesn't excuse his actions but you do at least feel for the young orphan Tom anyway), and we never got anything like that for Umbridge.
Yeah, alot of it comes down to Voldemort actually having a backstory and a reasoning behind his views(hell, in a twisted way, it makes total sense), Umbridge largely just seems to do it because she's either a sadist or a moron.

But I'd argue that everyone's run into a Riddle if not a Voldemort sometime in their lives, he did just sorta get pushed off the train into crazy town after getting on at orphan junction, after all.
 

CrazyGirl17

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Can't I hate them both? Voldemort is a cold, cruel and selfish person, while Umbridge... okay, is probably more realistic in her portrayal as a bully who flaunts her position to get her way. Either way, equally despicable in my eyes. ...Eh, I'll pick her if I have to.

TrulyBritish said:
I vote neither. My vote is for the entire Wizarding World (Well, fine just Britain really as thats the only one we know) to be the much more frightening aspect of the books. Consider these:
1a) The rampant corruption/poor management within the Ministry of Magic. First off we have the fact that the MoM apparently has so much control of the news (specifically the Daily Prophet) that they can print border line slander of people the Prime Minister finds uncomfortable as we see in book 5. Then we have the fact that the MoM can extort ridiculous amounts of control over the only known Wizarding school in Britain, putting in place their own inquisitors and being able to dictate the curriculum. Even before book 5, we learn in Chamber of Secrets that Lucius Malfoy was basically able to blackmail the governors into firing Dumbledore.
1b) One of the sympathetic characters (Arthur Weasley) is stated that he would have to arrest himself if he ever raided his own house because he frequently flaunts the rules of his own department.
2) The fantastic amount of racism inherent in the system. Werewolves, despite having a known medical aid in the Wolfsbane potion are treated as predators for having a disease, then there's the prejudice displayed against Giants, Centaurs and possibly the goblins as well. The WW keeps an entire race (house elves) as slaves to be beaten and this is treated as perfectly acceptable, to the extent that Dobby is considered a complete maverick in the fact that he asks for some wages and some small time off for a holiday (Seriously, I never got why we're supposed to think Hermione is some fanatic for wanting to change this). Then of course there's the, admittedly less popular, blood supremacy among certain wizards, and while most wizards don't seem to have a problem with muggle-borns there does seem to be some bad blood towards Squibs.
3) Pretty much every seen instance of wizarding law seems to have some huge flaw. Trials seem to be decided by the whims of whoever in court with Fudge again being shown to try his very best to screw over Harry's trial in book 5 and it doesn't seem much better from what we saw of the Death Eater trials in book 4. The known wizarding prison is guarded solely by literally joy-sucking vampires who only care as long as they are fed. Even the aurors only come off as mildly better, and even then they come off as being inept at investigations (the fact people just seem to accept Voldemort, one of the most powerful wizards known, was killed attacking a baby or their attempts to deal with Sirius) or at police work (seriously, how did they manage to not catch any Death eaters at the Quidditch world cup?). Outside of people like Kinglsey or Mad-Eye the jurors don't come off well (I'm reminded of McGonagall being hit with five stunners when they attack Hagrid in the books).
4) How about the fact that the MoM seems to be completely unable to regulate animagi? We know of at least 4 and 3 of those managed it as teens.
5) Then there's wizarding "pranks" like Love Potions that seem to be basically magical date-rape drugs that (if I'm correct), actually help contribute to Voldemort being as messed up as he is (I'm sure JKR's said outside of the books that the reason Voldemort can't feel love is because of them)
6) There's also the fact that the Minister of Magic nor anyone else sees fit to give any muggle and decent knowledge of the Wizarding World or their troubles, even as Voldemort is murdering people near the Prime Minister. When we add that to all the other stuff I've mentioned how much of a nightmare must it be to protect muggle from wayward wizards?
You know, it's funny. Years ago I couldn't help but noticed how the Wizarding World treated Harry seemed to go 180 after the 4th book. Where they once treated him as a savior, now they treat him like a pariah, mostly swayed by the government. And then it hit me: the British Wizarding World as a whole are a bunch of massive hypocrites who don't deserve Harry.

That's bad enough, but looking at the backstory for the latest movie, it appears that the relationship between Wizards and "No-Majs" in America (at the time, I can only hope) is so bad that they're not even allowed to interact! Not to mention the crazy anti-magical faction...

...It's all pretty messed up, to be honest.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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FalloutJack said:
I like that the community gives the token evil guy a walk in favor of hanging the ugly pink-wearing toad woman. Love it!
Yes, I give the token evil guy a walk in favor of a woman who expresses glee in racial torture and displaying the body parts of a dead cop at school.
 

Drathnoxis

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Nazulu said:
Drathnoxis said:
Nazulu said:
I don't know. I reckon they were both great in the 5th movie and I really wanted to see them both get their cu-muffins.

Umbridge did kind of steal the show, but then you think about how much shit Harry had to go through just by Living because of Voldemort (that includes Umbridge getting involved in his life at all)... Unfortunately, neither of them got the ending I wish they did (the last movie is fucking atrocious). So my answer is the last movie for ruining the series for me.
Actually, I want to make this my answer too! I hate that last book more than any other work of fiction. Harry Potter was my absolute favourite book series growing up, and the ending misteps so hard its shinbones rocket out of it's legs and embed themselves in the ceiling. I could write thousands of words about all the ways the finale fails to live up to expectations (and have).
That was a good read, thanks. The whole debate between you and Pulvia was interesting.
I'm glad you brought up the epilogue. That was what really ticked me off after such an unsatisfying experience.

Your link didn't work but I found it through quoting anyway.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.878659-How-the-Harry-Potter-Series-Should-Have-Ended-Total-Spoilers
Oh weird. Firefox didn't put in the http:// when I copied the link.

Yeah, the epilogue was really bad. Albus Severus, Scorpius, pffffft!

Ah, "interesting" eh? So who do you think was right? Was the Elder Wand a Deus Ex Machina or was it not?
 

WolfThomas

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Voldemort is basically an evil force. He was born under a love spells influence so can never feel love. Shitty childhood. Split his soul up. Spent a long time without corporeality. Like I just pity him. He's a rabid dog that needs putting down.

Umbridge is basically a nazi. She sucks.
 

Elijin

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Well, Voldemort is story book villain example of evil, who doesn't make an impact on the generation who read it because its a bit absurd within the context of our lives.

Umbridge is a cruel, petty person with an inch of power who likes to make sure everyone feels it. Whether it be teachers, managers, supervisors, or officials of varying local government or organisations, we can actually position this within our own lives. She's a terrifying reality of which we all probably know someone we see a bit (or lot) of her in.
 

Calyx_v1legacy

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Voldemort was one of the most mundane black/white villains of all time, Umbridge was just genuinely infuriating. Like I wanted to kill that ***** back when reading the books.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Voldemort at least has style. You love to hate him. The whole pity/fear angle might make him more sympathetic. Delores has a pointlessly evil aspect. And she's gaudy as fuck.
 

Outcast107

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Umbridge. All the way. Voldemort is a type of villain hard to pinpoint to someone. He very over the top and plus you do feel a bit sorry for him for his upbringings. Doesn't excuse him one bit, but you see where he fell and how it happen.

Umbridge, well..she can very well be someone in real life. The one type of person who holds small amount of power (Teacher, Managers, and etc) and fully uses it for their own end. They take pleasure abusing people under them and hate ANYONE who tries to talk back. We all know someone like this, and we all can relate and feel that same dread of seeing that person again. So yeah, Umbridge.
 

blipblop

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I always love the evil characters in books and movies and loathe the mr.perfect good guy and usualy kill off the token good guy in games if I get a chance like mass effect and kotor (bye carth onasi and kaidan alenko you won't be missed)
still morning the death of Joffrey
 

Nazulu

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Drathnoxis said:
Oh weird. Firefox didn't put in the http:// when I copied the link.

Yeah, the epilogue was really bad. Albus Severus, Scorpius, pffffft!

Ah, "interesting" eh? So who do you think was right? Was the Elder Wand a Deus Ex Machina or was it not?
I can't remember it all that well to really say, but I do remember that new rule about turning the wand on the owner felt like it came out of nowhere. I even talked about it with my friends after the movie. In fact, the whole idea felt like an after thought.
 

Skruff

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The difference to me is that Voldemort had psychological issues like -- borderline personality disorder, abandonment issues, probably even some schizophrenic paranoia -- that made him the evil, heartless monster that he became, with a heaping dose of megalomania thrown in for fun.

Delores Umbridge, however, was just plain evil for evil's sake (and also a bigot), and she masked it in this air of superiority and high moral ground.

You could make the case that Voldemort was not guilty of his actions by reason of insanity; Umbridge, however, knew exactly what she was doing both before and during Voldemort's control of the Ministry of Magic, and she didn't care about who got hurt.

This is why I hate her more.
 

Nazulu

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Skruff said:
The difference to me is that Voldemort had psychological issues like -- borderline personality disorder, abandonment issues, probably even some schizophrenic paranoia -- that made him the evil, heartless monster that he became, with a heaping dose of megalomania thrown in for fun.

Delores Umbridge, however, was just plain evil for evil's sake (and also a bigot), and she masked it in this air of superiority and high moral ground.

You could make the case that Voldemort was not guilty of his actions by reason of insanity; Umbridge, however, knew exactly what she was doing both before and during Voldemort's control of the Ministry of Magic, and she didn't care about who got hurt.

This is why I hate her more.
Yeah, I've seen this sentiment often when Voldemort comes into question. It doesn't really make a difference to me personally since Voldemort is so terrible and powerful that he had to be killed either way.

Yet, what makes you think Umbridge wasn't turned into a monster as well? She certainly seemed twisted enough to me, with those odd little giggles (even when she's stressed). Unless you are just saying she's more evil because she wasn't shown how in a back story, but even then, she would've had some poor experiences to become so sadistic.
 

TrulyBritish

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Nazulu said:
Drathnoxis said:
Oh weird. Firefox didn't put in the http:// when I copied the link.

Yeah, the epilogue was really bad. Albus Severus, Scorpius, pffffft!

Ah, "interesting" eh? So who do you think was right? Was the Elder Wand a Deus Ex Machina or was it not?
I can't remember it all that well to really say, but I do remember that new rule about turning the wand on the owner felt like it came out of nowhere. I even talked about it with my friends after the movie. In fact, the whole idea felt like an after thought.
Just to tag in for a moment, I think my problem with the whole "wand ownership" issue is that I can't think of an occasion prior to the seventh book where it was an issue. Before Deathly Hallows everyone seems to be perfectly fine using other peoples wands without the spells backfiring (I guess unless we count Lockhart struggling with Rons broken wand in CoS).
 

Nazulu

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TrulyBritish said:
Nazulu said:
Drathnoxis said:
Oh weird. Firefox didn't put in the http:// when I copied the link.

Yeah, the epilogue was really bad. Albus Severus, Scorpius, pffffft!

Ah, "interesting" eh? So who do you think was right? Was the Elder Wand a Deus Ex Machina or was it not?
I can't remember it all that well to really say, but I do remember that new rule about turning the wand on the owner felt like it came out of nowhere. I even talked about it with my friends after the movie. In fact, the whole idea felt like an after thought.
Just to tag in for a moment, I think my problem with the whole "wand ownership" issue is that I can't think of an occasion prior to the seventh book where it was an issue. Before Deathly Hallows everyone seems to be perfectly fine using other peoples wands without the spells backfiring (I guess unless we count Lockhart struggling with Rons broken wand in CoS).
That's what I mean. I can't remember any mention of it before either, and even then, it's a stupid idea too I reckon.

There was that scene in the first movie where Harry went to buy his first wand. The few wands he tested before they found the right one didn't react the way they were meant to. Maybe that was meant to be the set-up for that rule? I don't know.
 

BrawlMan

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Neither. Voldemort is pretty standard bad guy, and Umbridge I don't know enough about, because I am not a Hunger Games fan. I'll take the third option an pick Hao Asakura. I've said enough about the guy, and you get a cookie for guessing why.

Hint: I am referring to the orginal manga version of Shaman King.