Poll: Who is your favorite Dark Universe Batman?

[Johnny Novgorod]

This is why I never quite cared for superhero comics. Anything goes yet nothing sticks.

 

[Erttheking]

Eyeah (but wait! Each of them has one of the heroes or villain powers to be original!), it kinda why I disinterest into reading well watching (from that YT channel) more about it and also each of those Batman were puny at how they given into evil. I mean the Batman we know still didn't give into killing Joker when listenning to the revived Jason speech from Under the Red Hood! None of those evil ones can match that unbreakable resolves!

Also, the image of Joker have a bunch of families lined up on the sidewalk so he can shoot the parents in front of the kids for Batman to watch is just comical. It represents the problem with all of these origin stories; They want to introduce us to these nightmare versions of Batman, but they want to do it in less time needed to boil an egg.

But even then that wasn't what made Batman into JokerMan. He was infected with the Joker's version of the Hate Plague from Transformers, and like any true Batman, just mindlessly accepted his fate as an inevitable Joker without researching a cure, reaching out for help from Metas, or simply killing himself.

Like the Batman I know would exhaust every potential cure, meeting with Zantana, Zeus, Hades, Doctor Fate, Firestrom, the Atom, anyone who could possibly help, before asking either Superman or Wonder Woman to kill him and dispose of his body in the Sun to prevent further contamination, asking Dick and Barbara to take up the mantel of Dark Knight and protect Gotham until the end.

But no. This Batman is like 'Bah, what can you do! Joker!'

...So instead of being mentally broken down and having the very essence of who he is corrupted...he got sprayed with trademark make person evil gas?

That's the type of plotline I would expect from freaking Power Rangers. What the hell is DC thinking!?

And even if they're going with the "oh he CHOSE to not cure it" approach, it's the same problem I have with the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde potion from the original book. If you intentionally let something that robs you of your morality that affect, you can't have been that moral to begin with.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Huh, I had heard that the Metal shit was being received well. Sad, I haven't been able to keep up since I started uni. Oh well, omnibus here I come.

 

[SirSullymore]

Huh, I had heard that the Metal shit was being received well. Sad, I haven't been able to keep up since I started uni. Oh well, omnibus here I come.

I mean, it's well received by most the people who are actually reading it. I can understand being dismissive of these edgy Batmen, but that's kind of the shtick, DC as if everything were a metal album cover.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

If you were trying to have a discussion about Metal, Captain Marvelous, it kind of backfired. haha

I'll be honest, this is going a lot better than I thought it wouls. It hasn't devolved into Marvel Vs DC or politics yet, so silver linings and all. Here's hoping things go swimingly when I make a thread about Batman: White Knight

But even then that wasn't what made Batman into JokerMan. He was infected with the Joker's version of the Hate Plague from Transformers, and like any true Batman, just mindlessly accepted his fate as an inevitable Joker without researching a cure, reaching out for help from Metas, or simply killing himself.

Like the Batman I know would exhaust every potential cure, meeting with Zantana, Zeus, Hades, Doctor Fate, Firestrom, the Atom, anyone who could possibly help, before asking either Superman or Wonder Woman to kill him and dispose of his body in the Sun to prevent further contamination, asking Dick and Barbara to take up the mantel of Dark Knight and protect Gotham until the end.

But no. This Batman is like 'Bah, what can you do! Joker!'

I'm pretty sure, under the circumstances highlighted in the comic, it was too late from the moment Batman inhaled the gas. He killed Dick, Jason, Tim, and Barbara three days after he inhaled the gas, but there's no telling how long it actually took for him to change. I'd say the moment he laughed is the moment there was no turning back.

Also, the image of Joker have a bunch of families lined up on the sidewalk so he can shoot the parents in front of the kids for Batman to watch is just comical. It represents the problem with all of these origin stories; They want to introduce us to these nightmare versions of Batman, but they want to do it in less time needed to boil an egg.

But even then that wasn't what made Batman into JokerMan. He was infected with the Joker's version of the Hate Plague from Transformers, and like any true Batman, just mindlessly accepted his fate as an inevitable Joker without researching a cure, reaching out for help from Metas, or simply killing himself.

Yeah, but you could tell that it was presented as one of those moments that's supposed to show how evil Joker is and how maybe this'll make Batman break. Only done so in the most amateuristic way.

I wouldn't say it's supposed to show how evil Joker is. Blowing up hospitals and dissolving Gordon should have done that well enough. Recreating the death of Bruce's parents was probably more about psychologically torturing Bruce. Forcing him to relive his grief and powerlessness over and over again until he snaps.

Like the Batman I know would exhaust every potential cure, meeting with Zantana, Zeus, Hades, Doctor Fate, Firestrom, the Atom, anyone who could possibly help, before asking either Superman or Wonder Woman to kill him and dispose of his body in the Sun to prevent further contamination, asking Dick and Barbara to take up the mantel of Dark Knight and protect Gotham until the end.

But no. This Batman is like 'Bah, what can you do! Joker!'

Same as how DoomsdayBatman wouldn't have just opted to become Doomsday just because his kryptonite spear plan failed. He would've had his Batplane rigged up with kryptonite missles and miniguns, planted kryptonite gasbombs across the city etc. It isn't even explained how or when Superman went evil, as I'm sure Batman would've caught wind of that whole ordeal before it even started. No, he's just evil now and killed the rest of the Justice League cuz... cuz.

The moment you go at Superman with a spear, all other options have probably been exhausted. A Batplane rigged with anything doesn't mean much to someone who can shoot it out of the sky before it's within threatening range. Hiding bombs is also pretty useless to the guy with X-ray eyes.

Apparently Superman just woke up one morning and decided to be evil. Before that he was supposedly sticking with his "Truth, justice, and the American Way" schtick. How Batman would know without reading the man's mind is beyond me.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I wouldn't say it's supposed to show how evil Joker is. Blowing up hospitals and dissolving Gordon should have done that well enough. Recreating the death of Bruce's parents was probably more about psychologically torturing Bruce. Forcing him to relive his grief and powerlessness over and over again until he snaps.

Yeah, but it's done in the most bog standard way. Batman is just lying somewhere in an alley tied up (How the hell did he even get tied up?), and Joker just has like hundreds of families lined up on the streets. I mean Christ, where the hell is the Justice League during all this? You're telling me Superman or anyone else up there in that space tower didn't pick up on any of this? Did Joker just materialize this plan, including a tied up Batman, in a matter of seconds?

The moment you go at Superman with a spear, all other options have probably been exhausted. A Batplane rigged with anything doesn't mean much to someone who can shoot it out of the sky before it's within threatening range. Hiding bombs is also pretty useless to the guy with X-ray eyes.

Apparently Superman just woke up one morning and decided to be evil. Before that he was supposedly sticking with his "Truth, justice, and the American Way" schtick. How Batman would know without reading the man's mind is beyond me.

We've had Batman go toe-to-toe with an evil Superman before though, and he handled it with way more finesse. DC has bent Batman into all kinds of directions just so he could take on Superman should he need to, so to now go 'Oh yeah, I guess he just lost now for whatever reason, so he needs to go monster' is a major cop-out.

None of it is properly explained and set up, because that would require each of these alternate Batmen getting a dedicated story. And they're obviously meant to function as a twisted rogues gallery for the main universe heroes to fight.

These scenarios work as nightmare scenarios, literally. Like what if this is Bruce Wayne having a nightmare about turning into what he fears the most, since nightmares don't work under any sort of logic, they just show us what we fear. And none of these alternate worlds operate under much internal logic, it's just situations escalating horribly within minutes for no real rhyme or reason.

 

[McMarbles]

Yay. More Bat-Masturbation. No thanks.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

Eh, Batman gets a terminal case of the Jokers, he's going to kill himself. Straight up. Like I said, ask Superman or Wonder Woman to make it quick, and drop him off in the photoshpere.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Yeah, but it's done in the most bog standard way. Batman is just lying somewhere in an alley tied up (How the hell did he even get tied up?), and Joker just has like hundreds of families lined up on the streets. I mean Christ, where the hell is the Justice League during all this? You're telling me Superman or anyone else up there in that space tower didn't pick up on any of this? Did Joker just materialize this plan, including a tied up Batman, in a matter of seconds?

Apparently Joker drugged Batman, then tied him up. Ugh... Why didn't Superman just show up and fix everything. That'd be interesting, right? In the interest of telling an interesting story, readers/watchers are going to have to except that certain things are just the way they are. Having the man who can do everything show up and do everything does not make for interesting story telling. Why can't we have a story where Gotham burns while Batman and Joker come to ahead without some other unnecessary hero appearing? The Justice League isn't here. just accept it and move on.

We've had Batman go toe-to-toe with an evil Superman before though, and he handled it with way more finesse. DC has bent Batman into all kinds of directions just so he could take on Superman should he need to, so to now go 'Oh yeah, I guess he just lost now for whatever reason, so he needs to go monster' is a major cop-out.

None of it is properly explained and set up, because that would require each of these alternate Batmen getting a dedicated story. And they're obviously meant to function as a twisted rogues gallery for the main universe heroes to fight.

These scenarios work as nightmare scenarios, literally. Like what if this is Bruce Wayne having a nightmare about turning into what he fears the most, since nightmares don't work under any sort of logic, they just show us what we fear. And none of these alternate worlds operate under much internal logic, it's just situations escalating horribly within minutes for no real rhyme or reason.

If anything, I'd say Devastator showed how a fight between a being that can hold a black hole and a guy in a bat suit would actually end. Yeah, sure, Batman has defeated Superman, but how many of those fights weren't complete ass pulls? How many of those fights didn't involve Superman conveniently forgetting he has abilities other than Laser vision, super strength, and flight? Hell, even this fight has the Doomsday Virus cop-out.

And, just because Batman has won before doesn't mean his victory is all but assured here. Yes, Batman has beaten Superman before, but that's only because it's more satisfying to see Batman win against a god than it is to see a God crush a man. Except in this case. It's incredibly satisfying to see Superman explain, plainly, that he'd win that fight. But that's only because Batman has also become a god and I love seeing him get knocked down.

Eh, Batman gets a terminal case of the Jokers, he's going to kill himself. Straight up. Like I said, ask Superman or Wonder Woman to make it quick, and drop him off in the photoshpere.

That's assuming Batman realizes before the Jokerization has taken hold. Sure, Batman would kill himself. The Batman Who Laughs wouldn't.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Eugh...none of them.

This seems like a bad gimmick. Bad gimmicks happen in comics from time to time. But, on its own, the idea of a crossover featuring multiple alternate universe's worth of evil Batmen as the villain is not a bad idea. It makes the neat point that most psychologically damaged billionaire crime fighters on a vengeance-quest would end up more like the Punisher than Batman Prime.

But the ideas are awful. Awful, and derivative in a couple of cases. Murder Machine sounds a lot like the fate of the Terror [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Terror#America.27s_Best_Comics] from Alan Moore's Terra Obscura series, except Alan Moore did the idea way better and way creepier. The Batman who Laughs is just the B-plot from Arkham Knight played in an incredibly ham-fisted and two-dimensional way (the Joker has *really* gone too far this time! Because...he killed a bunch of people? He's the Joker. He does that regularly.)

And all the other ones are just dumb because they rely on a gimmicky combination of Batman with [insert Justice League member here]. The Green Lantern one has been done before [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_In_Darkest_Knight], but way better and in a more plausible way (why does the ring pick 9-year-old Bruce to be a Green Lantern if he just goes apeshit as soon as he has it and starts murdering people? Green Lantern rings are supposed to be more discerning than that. When their wielders go evil, it's the result of a slow degradation of their principles. They don't start out evil.)

The Wonder Woman, Superman and Aquaman ones are super dumb. Batman becomes Ares? Whatever. Batman becomes Doomsday in an effort to stop an evil Superman? Okay, that's just Batman and Superman fighting again, only now Batman becomes Doomsday. The Drowned is...so astoundingly stupid, I don't know who greenlit it.

"Find some way to have Batman become an Aquaman villain!"
"Uh, okay, so...Batman's lover gets drowned by Atlanteans and so Batman becomes Aquabat, and also he's a lady now?"
"WRITE IT UP"

The Flash one had some potential in the core idea - a time-travelling Batman who becomes a villain through obsessively trying to undo his founding tragedy - but...strapping the Flash to the Batmobile and using it as a Delorean? I can't tell if that's brilliant or retarded. And his arc is less "formerly-heroic man broken down by repeated failures to alter history" and "Batman has the Speed Force now, and he uses it to murder people."

It feels like a huge missed opportunity. The more I think about it, the more I feel this could've been way better if their character ideas were less obviously just an application of evil Batman to a Justice League member. It feels like an editor went "We need Batman to become a villain for Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg, so go do that."

Like, here's some ideas for a Batman who went wrong.

- A Batman who used the Speed Force to try and stop his parent's death, but couldn't do it without causing a paradox, so he went mad from the repeated failures and resets and stopped caring if he killed people along the way because hey, he can reset it and undo their death, so does lethal force even matter?
- A Batman whose parents were never murdered, and who grew up as an immensely talented but purposeless and amoral socialite who turned to fighting crime solely for the hedonistic thrill of it. (American Psycho Batman!)
- A Batman who takes the idea of not killing his enemies to the logical extreme and who starts imposing psychotically over-the-top "cruel mercy" punishments to his targets, torturing them and leaving them quadriplegic, lobotomised, or in chronic pain.
- A Batman who teamed up with a slightly-nicer Lex Luthor and Ra'as al-Ghul, initially to help fight crime but (with his evil buddy's urging) eventually seeking to jail benevolent superhumans like Superman as well. Could maybe factor in the old OMAC/Brother Eye [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMAC_(comics)#The_OMAC_Project] plot.
- A Batman who suffered a crippling injury early in his career (never recovering from Knightfall [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Knightfall], maybe?), who resorted to building semi-autonomous Batdrones to patrol Gotham City and eventually programming a Batman AI to take over after his death - but the AI turns tyrannical, because it was never programmed with the experiences of Bruce Wayne, who provides Batman's resilient moral core.
- A Batman who abruptly started using lethal force midway into his career, later revealed as Jason Todd - who took over the mantle after Batman perished saving him from the Joker's trap [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_A_Death_in_the_Family] and who quickly abandoned his predecessor's restraint.

See? I came up with all that in like half an hour. I should write comics.

 

[McMarbles]

Eugh...none of them.

This seems like a bad gimmick. Bad gimmicks happen in comics from time to time. But, on its own, the idea of a crossover featuring multiple alternate universe's worth of evil Batmen as the villain is not a bad idea. It makes the neat point that most psychologically damaged billionaire crime fighters on a vengeance-quest would end up more like the Punisher than Batman Prime.

But the ideas are awful. Awful, and derivative in a couple of cases. Murder Machine sounds a lot like the fate of the Terror [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Terror#America.27s_Best_Comics] from Alan Moore's Terra Obscura series, except Alan Moore did the idea way better and way creepier. The Batman who Laughs is just the B-plot from Arkham Knight played in an incredibly ham-fisted and two-dimensional way (the Joker has *really* gone too far this time! Because...he killed a bunch of people? He's the Joker. He does that regularly.)

And all the other ones are just dumb because they rely on a gimmicky combination of Batman with [insert Justice League member here]. The Green Lantern one has been done before [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_In_Darkest_Knight], but way better and in a more plausible way (why does the ring pick 9-year-old Bruce to be a Green Lantern if he just goes apeshit as soon as he has it and starts murdering people? Green Lantern rings are supposed to be more discerning than that. When their wielders go evil, it's the result of a slow degradation of their principles. They don't start out evil.)


The Wonder Woman, Superman and Aquaman ones are super dumb. Batman becomes Ares? Whatever. Batman becomes Doomsday in an effort to stop an evil Superman? Okay, that's just Batman and Superman fighting again, only now Batman becomes Doomsday. The Drowned is...so astoundingly stupid, I don't know who greenlit it.

"Find some way to have Batman become an Aquaman villain!"
"Uh, okay, so...Batman's lover gets drowned by Atlanteans and so Batman becomes Aquabat, and also he's a lady now?"
"WRITE IT UP"

The Flash one had some potential in the core idea - a time-travelling Batman who becomes a villain through obsessively trying to undo his founding tragedy - but...strapping the Flash to the Batmobile and using it as a Delorean? I can't tell if that's brilliant or retarded. And his arc is less "formerly-heroic man broken down by repeated failures to alter history" and "Batman has the Speed Force now, and he uses it to murder people."

It feels like a huge missed opportunity. The more I think about it, the more I feel this could've been way better if their character ideas were less obviously just an application of evil Batman to a Justice League member. It feels like an editor went "We need Batman to become a villain for Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg, so go do that."

Like, here's some ideas for a Batman who went wrong.

- A Batman who used the Speed Force to try and stop his parent's death, but couldn't do it without causing a paradox, so he went mad from the repeated failures and resets and stopped caring if he killed people along the way because hey, he can reset it and undo their death, so does lethal force even matter?
- A Batman whose parents were never murdered, and who grew up as an immensely talented but purposeless and amoral socialite who turned to fighting crime solely for the hedonistic thrill of it. (American Psycho Batman!)
- A Batman who takes the idea of not killing his enemies to the logical extreme and who starts imposing psychotically over-the-top "cruel mercy" punishments to his targets, torturing them and leaving them quadriplegic, lobotomised, or in chronic pain.
- A Batman who teamed up with a slightly-nicer Lex Luthor and Ra'as al-Ghul, initially to help fight crime but (with his evil buddy's urging) eventually seeking to jail benevolent superhumans like Superman as well. Could maybe factor in the old OMAC/Brother Eye [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMAC_(comics)#The_OMAC_Project] plot.
- A Batman who suffered a crippling injury early in his career (never recovering from Knightfall [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Knightfall], maybe?), who resorted to building semi-autonomous Batdrones to patrol Gotham City and eventually programming a Batman AI to take over after his death - but the AI turns tyrannical, because it was never programmed with the experiences of Bruce Wayne, who provides Batman's resilient moral core.
- A Batman who abruptly started using lethal force midway into his career, later revealed as Jason Todd - who took over the mantle after Batman perished saving him from the Joker's trap [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_A_Death_in_the_Family] and who quickly abandoned his predecessor's restraint.

See? I came up with all that in like half an hour. I should write comics.

Or! Or maybe we start out with Bruce Wayne's parents getting killed and then he follows a stranger down a subway tunnel and a wizard gives him powers but tells him he can't use them to bring back his parents so he KILLS THE WIZARD AND TAKES ALL HIS POWER AND THEN HE KILLS EVERY SORCEROR EVER AND TAKES ALL THEIR POWERS BECAUSE HE'S JUST SO MUCH BETTER AND MORE AWESOME THAN EVERYBODY ESPECIALLY MY MOM'S DUMB BOYFRIEND AND THAT JERK TROY AT SCHOOL WHO'S ALWAYS SHOVING MY HEAD IN THE TOILET.

*ahem*

So, yeah! We can call it "Batman: The Thunderbolt"! And he'd have Dr. Fate's helmet and ride a Man-Bat and Swamp Thing would be his slave and this is just so original!

 

[Asita]

- A Batman who teamed up with a slightly-nicer Lex Luthor and Ra'as al-Ghul, initially to help fight crime but (with his evil buddy's urging) eventually seeking to jail benevolent superhumans like Superman as well. Could maybe factor in the old OMAC/Brother Eye [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMAC_(comics)#The_OMAC_Project] plot.

Or a Batman whose love for Talia outweighed his conviction to his rules. Several years after agreeing to marry her and become Ra's al Ghul's heir, Batman employs the League of Assassins to deadly effect. Poison Ivy may or may not have some degree of partnership with this Batman, considering Ra's goals.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

snip

Yeah, none of these Batmen are terribly creative. Most of them come off as really bad fanfiction. I do love their designs though. Especially the Batman Who Laughs and The Drowned.

The Drowned is...so astoundingly stupid, I don't know who greenlit it.

"Find some way to have Batman become an Aquaman villain!"
"Uh, okay, so...Batman's lover gets drowned by Atlanteans and so Batman becomes Aquabat, and also he's a lady now?"
"WRITE IT UP"

Batman's lover got killed by metas. The reason he-er... She becomes Aquabat is because the Atlanteans drown Gotham in retaliation to the death of Aquawoman. So she undergoes surgery and creates her own army in order to better fight them. Why she managed to defeat Aquawoman but needs surgery to fight the rest is beyond me.

- A Batman who teamed up with a slightly-nicer Lex Luthor and Ra'as al-Ghul, initially to help fight crime but (with his evil buddy's urging) eventually seeking to jail benevolent superhumans like Superman as well. Could maybe factor in the old OMAC/Brother Eye [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMAC_(comics)#The_OMAC_Project] plot.

Or a Batman whose love for Talia outweighed his conviction to his rules. Several years after agreeing to marry her and become Ra's al Ghul's heir, Batman employs the League of Assassins to deadly effect. Poison Ivy may or may not have some degree of partnership with this Batman, considering Ra's goals.

After his parents are killed by Chill, Bruce is approached by an assassin, say, David Cain or Ra's Al Ghul. Cain/Ghul asks Bruce if he's just going to sit there and cry or if he's going to get revenge. He helps Bruce track down and kill Chill. Cain/Ghul raises Bruce thereafter, honing him into the worlds deadliest assassin. He could also still have a kid with Talia and Damian could come face to face with a version of himself raised solely by assassins, rather than himself jokerized.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Yeah, none of these Batmen are terribly creative. Most of them come off as really bad fanfiction. I do love their designs though. Especially the Batman Who Laughs and The Drowned.

Hey, I never said that.

 

[votemarvel]

Red Death I think is my favourite. If only for the fact that his world didn't seem to go to hell, just his life as Batman. Also given that he's still linked to his world's Barry Allen, if one of the DU Batmen turn against the Batman Who Laughs I suspect it is going to be him.

I am quite enjoying Metal so far but I don't understand why, with the exception of the Batman Who Laughs and maybe Dawnbreaker, the others have all decided to go evil on Earth Prime (or whatever they are calling it these days).

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Yeah, none of these Batmen are terribly creative. Most of them come off as really bad fanfiction. I do love their designs though. Especially the Batman Who Laughs and The Drowned.

Hey, I never said that.

Woah, fudged that quote hard. Fixed!

Red Death I think is my favourite. If only for the fact that his world didn't seem to go to hell, just his life as Batman. Also given that he's still linked to his world's Barry Allen, if one of the DU Batmen turn against the Batman Who Laughs I suspect it is going to be him.

I am quite enjoying Metal so far but I don't understand why, with the exception of the Batman Who Laughs and maybe Dawnbreaker, the others have all decided to go evil on Earth Prime (or whatever they are calling it these days).

The possibility of one of the Dark Bats turning on Barbatos never occurred to me. Every single one of the Dark Universe Batmen became murderers that ditched their morals on their own negative earth. The Drowned started killing Metas, Devastator became corrupted by power, likewise with The Merciless, Dawnbreaker, and Red Death. Murder Machine became corrupted by the Alfred AI. They all became amoral murderers after they gained powers with the exception of The Drowned who started killing before her surgery and Dawnbreaker who had immense murderous intent. He probably should have gotten a Red Lantern Ring instead.