Poll: Whom is more ignorant in your eyes?

[Thanatos34]

I think the most ignorant thing is when people say abortion is evil inhumane.

I don't want to be mean or anything, but really now! Our planet does not need any more people than it has now!

Oh good. So we should just start killing people off? After you, buddy.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Abortion is not murder, and I have never implied that it was. Unless you're an evangelical religious zealot, you would know that the planet is under heavy stress from the population.
Abortion is not murder, it's only a way of preventing the unnecessary excess use of our resources.

The planet is under heavy stress...

Is that why Russia has a density of 20 people per square mile, and Australia has a density of 7/ square mile, the US has 80/sq mile... I love how one can no longer disagree with each other without being called names. Our problem is not too many people, it's too many people concentrated in small locations. Take the central eastern portion of China, which is ridiculously overcrowded.

Abortion is killing, at least, as perhaps you could argue that the fetus is not human, though that gets really shaky, (i.e. at what point does it become a human), but it is still killing. It may be killing something with a good end in mind, but the fetus is a living thing that you are destroying merely because it is inconvenient, in most cases. If the mother's life is in danger, or in certain other cases, fine, it may be unavoidable. Otherwise... yeah.

And hell yes it's inhumane. They suck the kid's brains out, and cut him to pieces, for crying out loud. If there is the least chance that he can feel that, don't you think we should do something about it?

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just voicing my opinion that humans are terrible at resource management. In fact, now that I think about it, I agree with your statement that a population crisis isn't the right choice of words.

Also, my view on abortion is just my opinion. I'm not insulting yours, I'm just explaining why I feel this way.

"Unless you're an evangelical religious zealot, you would know that the planet is under heavy stress from the population."

^^^

Was what I was referring to. It's not just you, I simply feel that literally every debate on here has two or three people that cannot make their points without insulting people. It's as if we can no longer debate civilly.

It may just be your opinion, but I fail how abortion could be less humane that it is. It may be necessary, if you truly believe the planet is going to affected by our population before we figure out how to colonize other celestial bodies, but it is not humane by any sense of the word. Look up exactly what happens during an abortion procedure, and then say it's humane. If it is absolutely necessary to kill the fetuses, then find a less painful way to go about doing it.

 

[Fronken]

Those who advocate abstinence and try to brainwash the youth into believing stuff that isnt true about sex.

And yes, i know that sex isnt the best thing in the world, even i realise that and im still a frigging virgin, but still, Sex is a big part of adult life, and teenagers experimenting with it is nothing more than a teenager test driving for his driving license, its the same thing:

Both a car and sex is a big part of adult life (for transportation and pleasure, and perhaps transportation TO pleasure..but anyways).

Both can give great freedoms; A car is obvious as it opens up traveling on a whole new scale, but sex can also liberate one from for example: Stress, Aggravation, Anxiety etc..

Both have some major risks attached to them if used in a bad manner; A car is downright deadly in the wrong hands, and if one practices sex in a bad manner you may not only catch a variety of diseases (some even deadly), but you may also get some girl pregnant, or in the case that you are a girl...you can get pregnant, and that can ruin not only your life but also your familys And the child you are carrying.

So to sum up my annoyingly long post i'll say this:

Sex is something that needs to be Educated, not Ignored, cause sooner or later we're all at the mercy of the all-mighty Vag.

 

[deletemeplease107]

Im 15 and im a virgin. I just feel like saving it would be more special to the girl i do fall in love with than just going and getting drunk at a party and boinking some girl. Theres no Love in it...
And i hope that the girl does the same. I have found a girl i am in love with, and not just what some teenager would say "love" is.

and consequently i get called gay alot from my friends... oh well.

 

[Jerious1154]

I don't think people who support premarital abstinence are ignorant. Even without the religious factor, something like that is based on an individuals morality. The ignorant ones are the people who preach abstinence education.

And why is it that abstinence before marriage is moral? If you judge morality as "what relieves the most suffering, and causes the most happiness" then your pretentions to abstinence before marriage being moral are moot. Responsible sex outside of marriage can increase a couples happiness. The only reason people think that waiting until being married is moral is because of an old book.

I agree with you, what I'm saying is that it depends on the couple. If someone believes that sex outside of a formally committed marriage is immoral, I don't think that that is ignorant. Likewise, if someone believes that sex outside of marriage increases their bond and makes them happier, I don't think that that is ignorant either. It's not a right or wrong decision, it's a moral decision.

 

[joystickjunki3]

Abstinance supporters, they spread ideas that just get kids in trouble over time.

"Yes Timmy, the Vagina does have teeth that will eat your penis."

I don't recall ever being told that while growing up.

Didn't you see the film "Teeth"? It's all about it! Althogh the woman is a vampire (I think) still!!!

Yeah, but I was never told about vagina dentata while growing up (not until 15 that is; I learned in a philosophy book). Hence "while growing up" was in my post. It's a fine movie, but not something I care to watch again because it wasn't terribly compelling.

 

[Thanatos34]

I think the most ignorant thing is when people say abortion is evil inhumane.

I don't want to be mean or anything, but really now! Our planet does not need any more people than it has now!

Oh good. So we should just start killing people off? After you, buddy.

Way to miss the point. Some people need to stay alive to preach the message not to make TOO MANY more people. He isn't calling for mass extinctions hes asking for moderation of population growth. Those that want to lower the pop should go last to make sure the others go first lol.

Again, after you. You want to not have kids, because you think Mother Earth is getting a bit too crowded, go ahead. We'll be more than glad to have you out of the pool, as it were.

Just think about what you are suggesting. Something like what China has? How exactly do you plan to enforce this "population control?"

Again you miss the point. If we went first it would just be like Idiocracy with the stupid and inconsiderate having more kids proportionately. Let those that are responsible go last to make sure it goes right. Disliking high populations does not mean you deserve to die.

We could easily offer economic incentives to those with less kids-not necessarily an authoritarian imposition of pop maxes but incentives to have smaller families with better educated children. What China did was a socially responsible action for their country.

Whomever said abortion is murder is full of crap. Its not alive yet its not murder its not inhumane - I don't feel like escalating into a flamewar on abortion here so I'll nip it now but I have to say the truth at least once- abortion is not murder anymore than eating eggs is. Yes I've taken bio so i don't need gestation explanations. Is meat murder even though its a convenient source of protein?

What China did was an atrocity. I have a Chinese friend who was forced to have an abortion. That is not a "socially responsible action," that is a fucked-up government that deserves to be disobeyed in that matter, if not overthrown entirely.

Of course meat is not murder. Are you suggesting we eat the fetus?

You miss my point. What you are suggesting is an aristocracy. "Oh, well, we think you guys should stop having kids because it's going to mess up the planet. We are going to keep having kids just so we can make sure that you guys continue to not have kids."

...

Yeah, like I said, you gonna hold that position, you go right ahead. If you don't follow through on your beliefs, I feel free to label you a hypocrite. (If you have kids- not if you don't kill yourself. After all, why have kids when there are plenty of orphans in the world to adopt, right? Please don't take this out of context and say I'm against adoption, btw. I'd be most displeased.)

 

[Dynex811]

While I may not agree with Abstinence supporters, they generally tend to be (in my experiences) more educated on their position while someone who says sex is the greatest thing ever has not really researched or doesn't understand the negative effects. For the most part it's the people who are uneducated about sex, and believe that it is the greatest thing ever, that spread diseases or have underage pregnancies. Then again, that isn't to say there aren't some retarded abstinence supporters.

 

[joystickjunki3]

Abstinance supporters, they spread ideas that just get kids in trouble over time.

"Yes Timmy, the Vagina does have teeth that will eat your penis."

I don't recall ever being told that while growing up.

Didn't you see the film "Teeth"? It's all about it! Althogh the woman is a vampire (I think) still!!!

Yeah, but I was never told about vagina dentata while growing up (not until 15 that is; I learned in a philosophy book). Hence "while growing up" was in my post. It's a fine movie, but not something I care to watch again because it wasn't terribly compelling.

Fair play then. Thankfully I never watched, just heard of it.

Don't go out of your way to see it then. But don't avoid it either.

 

[achilleas.k]

First of all, I would like to say that Kpt._Rob said a lot of what I was thinking in his first post a lot better than I ever could.
That being said I would like to add my 2c.

This whole debate seems to be a bit one sided. At least at first browsing, it looks like 80% of the people posting are against the abstinence supporters, even though the actual poll results are more balance. This could be because many voters aren't posting or because I'm an idiot that read 2 pages of posts and only listened to one side. Either way, I'd like to take a moment and relate this to the whole war on drugs. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating the use of illegal substances, I'm just very opposed to the way the whole matter is handled in my country. Most anti-drug campaigns are run by people who know how to quote statistics and say the word "death" a lot, not people who know what it is they're "fighting" against. If you want to bring in an anti-drug speaker, get an ex-addict. That'll scare the crap out of the kids!
Another case I'm reminded of is the Mass Effect "sex content" story on Fox news (I'm sure we all know about that one). You bring in a psychologist that goes on and on about sex and she's never even seen the content she's bashing. You're either going to fail to convince someone, or you're going to create false impressions and fear, which is never good.

Where am I going with this? People who preach abstinence are usually people who don't know the other side. They haven't experienced casual sex. Some of them haven't even experienced sex to begin with. (remember the South Park episode? I know Parker and Stone blow everything out of proportion but they got a point).

Now I'm not saying that "sex addicts", or the people who support the other side have it all right, but at least they know what they're talking about. They're supporting something they enjoy, something they believe is a fundamental experience, and even though they overdo it, they probably know what life without sex is like (given that they haven't been having sex since they were 8 y.o.)

Bottom line: You can't fight a force you know nothing about and that is what abstinence supporters are mostly doing. They focus on scare-words like "STD" and "unplanned pregnancy" and all that and when you finally experience it you're thinking "what the hell were those guys on about?".

 

[Wyatt]

the space in between these two options is where my opinion really lands. those who advocate one over the other to an extream extent is the truly ignorant person.

on the question of sex in general this is more of an age issue. when your in your youth sex IS the be all end all. i recall being horney from the time i was 14ish till i was 23 or 24. im older now and im not so much. sex has taken its proper place for me in that its something to be persued on occasion but it doesnt domainate my thinking as constiantly as it did when i was younger.

i would advocate to someone young to wate to have sex, when i WAS young i would ignore that advice. i think if you could get an honest opinion based by age you would see this is also the case for most people over 30. but one thing needs to be said and understood, when your talking about sex and sexdrive your allways dealing with something that is more 'animal' in nature than otherwise, your dealing with instinct and not thought.

im christian and understand christian sexual morality, moreover i understand WHY sexual morality is importiant outside the 'religious frame work', but i also understand that sex is one of those few things that can totaly over ride logical thinking (for good reason) and that anyone who expects to say to a horny teen, 'lookit sex is bad for A,B,C,D and do on' and expects that teen not to ignore them really IS ignorant. because those teens bodys say, "hmmm yes, i see and understand what your saying there ........ but i just dont give a fuck"

the best a good parent can do is hope to keep thier child from the more extream cases of bad judgment and just wate till they gain enough age and wisdom so that they can start actualy thinking with their heads and not with their dicks.

ohh and for those people here who think abortion is a good idea because we have to many people, i say go get a gun or something and off yourself and make some 'room' for those babys youd rather see murdered. after all if this planet is sooo over crouded we need to start murdering people because we are runing out of room, why not start your population reduction methods with yourself first, im sure you wont be missed. and given the extream ignorance of the very idea of baby murdering as population controll its almost certian that you have nothing of value to add to a society so its no real loss to anyone.

 

[Slayer_2]

This is kind of black-and-white choices on a grey subject. I DON'T think sex is the greatest thing ever (that would be breathing). I would say the religous abstinance preachers are more ignorant, but I am athiest and disagree with the "sex is the best thing EVAR" option.

P.S.

ohh and for those people here who think abortion is a good idea because we have to many people, i say go get a gun or something and off yourself and make some 'room' for those babys youd rather see murdered. after all if this planet is sooo over crouded we need to start murdering people because we are runing out of room, why not start your population reduction methods with yourself first, im sure you wont be missed. and given the extream ignorance of the very idea of baby murdering as population controll its almost certian that you have nothing of value to add to a society so its no real loss to anyone.

Oh really? Well I hate to tell you buddy, but if you have ever used a condom, then you're a dreaded baby-killer as well by that logic. Fetuses are not alive and if they were taken out of their mothers, they'd die instantly. Your sperm is not alive either, but by your logic, each time you jack off or use a birth control, you just killed a baby. Or maybe even a few thousand, depending on the extent of your religious "logic".

Right now the world is too crowded, denying it is stupid and ignorant. That doesn't mean we should kill living people who WOULD be missed. We should move farther back in the cycle and stop it at the source (sex). If we can't do that, then we should do it before logical people term it murder (abortion). Who knows, maybe one day it'll be mandatory to lose your ability to reproduce due to overcrowding. Lets see you spout your bullshit when the world is home to 25 billion people, all starving to death and killing the enviroment.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather be "killed" before I was alive rather than get shot in the head now. If you were never alive, then you aren't losing anything and nobody is hurt by your passing. I'd also rather "die" as a fetus then grow up in an orphanage, on the streets or dying of hunger. I don't have anything against religion, except when it makes absolutly zero sense. It's good for comforting people, but people can take it too far.

 

[chefassassin2]

If we're going for this question, I find that most people are in the grey area between the two. Most of the people I know calling for abstinence are nutjobs who think that abstinence is the answer to all of the world's problems, from abortion to world hunger. They fail to accept the fact that people will have sex, and that education and prudence needs to prevail over their way of thinking. On the other hand, I know people on the oppisite end of the spectrum who use sex as a weapon, or a way of saying thank you for dinnner, or just don't respect themselves enough to not jump in the sack right away. Me, I like sex, but I'm also in a relationship with an incredible woman, and we're safe. I've got a lot more to say, or could explain everything better, but it would take about 2 hours of typing and none of y'all want that.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I think the obsession that some parents have with their daughters' chastity is... unsettling.

The people who are *totally* obsessed with sex aren't great to hang around with either, but I'd rather have someone give me too much information about their crappy sex lives than talk about how everyone else is wrong for ever having sex outside of a marriage between a man, a woman, and god.

 

[TriggerUnhappy]

Very tough decision, because both promote idiotic ideas that are on the opposite spectrums of one another. Hmm... I guess I'd have to say the people who say sex is the best thing ever are more ignorant, because while I don't think that people should have to wait until they are married to have sex, I believe the ideas those people promote are better because it's trying to keep the idea that sex is something sacred between two people in love which is an idea that seems to have disappeared. Not that I think that there's anything wrong with casual sex or that telling people that having sex will make them go to Hell is right, but I think sex is being downplayed as something special and is instead believed to be something best had constantly and with as many women as possible because of how AWESOME the people that do it are which is just plain moronic thinking. In the end, the best ideology is somewhere in the middle and not on either of the extreme ends.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I voted for abstinence, not because I'm a particularly big "sex" guy, but because I generally ascribe to the Freudian theory, which is basically that almost all psychosis and mental conditions have something to do with sex.

I'm not endorsing orgies in the street, but history and personal experiences have largely proved that the more sexually repressed, the more incompatible socially, the more boring, and the more likely to be a serial rapist and murderer. I'm serious on that last point, because sexual repression means you can't get laid in a healthy and in an emotionally and socially beneficial way, which means that that frustration is going to worm its way out in a much less constructive manner. Truth is, sex is central to us, it's what makes us work and live, biologically. You can't suppress that reproductive tendency without damaging something somewhere else.

Besides, abstinence is woefully unsuccessful at stopping sex, as subscribers to that sort of program can't actually be turned off of sex subconsciously, so they find loopholes like anal and oral to get around it, and still fuck.

I think we might want to take Freud with a grain of salt on the subject of sex, considering his theory of Penis Envy

No, seriously, I agree with you. Teaching kids to ignore their urges can only end badly, whereas teaching them to not have their urges be as destructive (or even beneficial) just makes sense. To use an example from a few sweeping, societal generalizations, we can just look at Japan. This is a society that was massively sexually repressed for a long time up until relatively recently. But look at them now. As a society, they had been holding in sex for so long, that it has burst into the...erm, unique sexual practices (used panty machines, all forms of hentai, etc) that we all know and claim not to love. The same thing happens to a kid who's repressed sexually.