Poll: Why are comic book readers so averse to change?

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Whenever I read an article about Lady Thor, Captain Falcon, or Miles Morales I find a slew of comments showing irrational disdain toward these characters. They complain about Thor becoming a woman as if they don't know Lady Thor is not a gender Bent Thor. They complain about Spider-man becoming black, even though Peter Parker (Earth-616) is still alive and well. I guess I can understand the complaints about Wilson inheriting the mantle of Captain America, but the complaints emphasize what I don't like about comic books in general. The lack of change.

My favorite New 52 series is Earth 2. Why? Because Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman die in the first issue. I don't think anyone could possibly understand how happy I was to see them die and see the world move on without them. Is it too much to ask Dick Grayson too take up the mantle of Batman after Bruce Wayne dies in a blaze of glory? Is it too much to ask for Superman to do the same? Is it too much to ask these changes remain permanent?

Anyway, all I'm asking here is, are you averse to change in your Comic Books? Why or why not? I would also like to hear your opinion on Lady Thor, Captain Falcon, and Miles Morales.

 

[Ambient_Malice]

The American comics industry tries to have its cake and eat it too. Its entire model is built around selling people slightly tweaked versions of the exact same shit as last time. (The same could be said of the Japanese manga industry where people gobble up the same repetitive shounen crap year after year where characters shout "I'M GONNA REMOVE THIS MAGICAL ARSEPLUG AND NOW I'M REALLY FIGHTING SERIOUSLY BECAUSE THE COUNCIL PLACED THAT ARSEPLUG TO CONTROL MY POWERS.)

The model is broken because they're trying to pander to a weird audience who wants more of the same shit while also giving it a TWEEEST to appeal to select interest groups or alternatively people who are bored to tears with the state of the comics industry.

This all stems from handing existing IPs to a revolving door of writers instead of retiring them gracefully.

 

[Saetha]

...I'm not really a reader of comic books, but the only one I really hear dislike for is Lady Thor.

And it's my understanding that this mostly because the writing for her is awful and there's needless complications in calling her Thor when she's really a completely different character.

Like, we're referring to her as Lady Thor right now. So it was pointless to make her "Thor" in the first place because people will just call her something else. She should've been given her own identity. That would've been truly progressive - to prove that a woman can *gasp* be the center of her own story rather than have to steal a man's.

 

[DementedSheep]

...I'm not really a reader of comic books, but the only one I really hear dislike for is Lady Thor.

And it's my understanding that this mostly because the writing for her is awful and there's needless complications in calling her Thor when she's really a completely different character.

Like, we're referring to her as Lady Thor right now. So it was pointless to make her "Thor" in the first place because people will just call her something else. She should've been given her own identity. That would've been truly progressive - to prove that a woman can *gasp* be the center of her own story rather than have to steal a man's.

I'm pretty sure I remember the writer saying this started because they wanted to do a story in which Thor became unworthy and had to deal with someone else taking up the mantle. They just decided that if they were going to have another Thor anyway it might as well be a women so I don't think she was made specificity to be "progressive". It was just an opportunity they took. Thor is still around, he just doesn't have the hammer right now (but he dose in the future so they really aren't even pretending this is permanent).

 

[Fappy]

Many of the people who are averse to change in comics are likely the same people who fight change in all aspects of their lives. Change is scary, I guess. For some reason people are totally content with creative stagnation :/

Stagnation was one of the reasons I stopped reading Marvel and DC. Because the characters always have to go back to form whenever there is a change it makes those changes fucking pointless in the long run. I was actually pondering this issue recently and I think I came up with a good solution to negate a lot of the BS that comes with continuity shake-ups and sliding timelines. It's kind of a crazy idea, but hear me out:

Have some kind of big event (like Marvel is doing now kinda) and nuke your continuity OR take a couple years to properly bring the continuity to a satisfying end. Once the continuity is retired you start fresh with a new rebooted universe that exists COMPLETELY INDEPENDENTLY from previous continuities. Sure, carry over things if you wish, but those things happened in THIS universe, not in the last one. Once the new continuity is going, give it about 10-15 years of life (a good 100-150 issues for most books) before you wrap up that continuity and start anew. The catch? Each year that passes in the real world passes in the comic world.

Think of the possibilities!

 

[ExDeath730]

As a long time comic book fan...It's because nothing really changes.

Really, at the end, everything returns to the status quo, because comics are both driven by the company and the writer, what happens is that if stuff is making money them it's all good, the writer can do some crazy shit and there's no problem with it. When sales start droping, or when the creative team changes them most writers will undo somethings, try to change others so they can leave a mark on the character and so on, and on, and on.

Worse? Are the editorial mandates. When the company decides that something must happen, this is a lot more prevalent in Marvel, where Peter Parker's marriage was destroyed because the editor at the time had a divorce and was pissed at marriages (the writer hated having to do OMD, and quit marvel afterwards), there was the Civil War one, where the writer were supposed to make Tony Stark right, but they rebelled against the editors. The last time that happened was in AvX, where the editorial mandate was to make Cyclops a straight up villain but the writer of UXM at the time got pissed because the event screwed up his arc, so he and Bendis decided to make Cyke into a tragic villain, that made the character a hit and destroyed Wolverine comics reputation at the same time. Why do you think comic book fans didn't care for Logan's death? Aside from the fact that comic book characters never truly die, it's because he was acting like a whinner for some time. But Marvel greatest sin is the Event Fatigue. Every year there is an event that "changes everything" but changes back a lot of stuff to the status quo, writer's get pissed, fans get pissed, but it's like clockwork.

DC for a long time was really better at change than marvel, i loved when Wally was the main Flash, or how the Green Lantern of Earth always changed from time to time (Guy Gardner, John Stewart and Kyle Rayner are very cool characters on their own). But Geoff Johns took control, and something about Johns? He loved the stuff how it was in his childhood, so, let's bring back Hal Jordan as the main Green Lantern! Oh, and let's revive Barry Allen, because even if Wally West is a lot more fun, he was not MY Flash! It's a testament to Johns writing, that even so, he used the other 3 GLs in very cool ways, but Wally? He is forgotten now, except for the rabid fans who grew up with him.

Batman? Dick Grayson had his tenures as him in place of Bruce Wayne, he was awesome at this, but them the Status Quo come back. It's about the third or fourth time that Thor is not worthy of Mjolnir, bur he will be back probably for the next Thor movie, Cap? Aside from Steve Rogers there was 3 or 4 before the Falcon took the shield, but for me there's only one true black Captain America, and he is Isaiah Bradley (i bet most here haven't heard of him), give some time and the Falcon will go back to being the Falcon. That's the great weakness of comics.

Anyway, Comics...Comics never change.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Is there such a thing as change in the first place? Everything always reverts to square one sooner or later.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

snip

Ugh, One More Day. I'm not even mad that they retconned the marriage or Peter revealing his secret identity because I'm absolutely livid that they went about it the way they did. In order to save the life of a fossil who should have less than a week left in her, Peter Parker makes a deal with the devil. He could not find a anyone, anyone to save her. From a gunshot wound! I'd better add Aunt May to the list of characters that need to die. Speaking of, they intend to bring the Civil War story to the Cinematic Universe. If the new Spider-man is Peter and he reveals his identity like he does in the comics, will they find a way to retcon it then as well?

Oh, and to hell with the status quo! The fact that things return to the status quo makes these complaints even more ridiculous. If Thor will regain the hammer, why complain about Lady Thor? If Captain America will regain the shield, why complain about Captain Falcon? Like Superior Spiderman or Dick Grayson as Batman, these changes are temporary and should be enjoyed while they last. Has a well known Hero died and stayed dead yet? At all?

 

[The Madman]

So I'm confused about the Thor thing, how can anyone else be Thor? I mean Thor isn't a title, that's literally the guys name: Thor, not a job position or title but his actual name. Makes sense someone else can wield Mjornir since in the hammers case it's just a matter of being worthy, but wielding Mjolnir doesn't make someone into Thor, it just means they're wielding Thor's hammer.

Is that ever explained or is Thor a title in the Marvel setting? I'm lead to understand she isn't just a Thor that got hit with a villains gender-bending ray or something and that the original Thor is still around, so what's the story? I don't really read comics so the only thing I know about this change is that there's controversy about it, I've yet to have seen someone who could actually explain what's going on with the fem-Thor thing.

 

[ExDeath730]

snip

Ugh, One More Day. I'm not even mad that they retconned the marriage or Peter revealing his secret identity because I'm absolutely livid that they went about it the way they did. In order to save the life of a fossil who should have less than a week left in her, Peter Parker makes a deal with the devil. He could not find a anyone, anyone to save her. From a gunshot wound! I'd better add Aunt May to the list of characters that need to die. Speaking of, they intend to bring the Civil War story to the Cinematic Universe. If the new Spider-man is Peter and he reveals his identity like he does in the comics, will they find a way to retcon it then as well?

Oh, and to hell with the status quo! The fact that things return to the status quo makes these complaints even more ridiculous. If Thor will regain the hammer, why complain about Lady Thor? If Captain America will regain the shield, why complain about Captain Falcon? Like Superior Spiderman or Dick Grayson as Batman, these changes are temporary and should be enjoyed while they last. Has a well known Hero died and stayed dead yet? At all?

I'm not even gonna get started on the OMD bullshit, i mean...Have you read the comics that preceded it? There was one, i think it was the last number of Sensational Spider-Man, that was a tribute to the marriage, and it was beautiful, really beatiful, and touching, one of the best romance comics i have read. And to end it all with a deal with the devil? So heroic, right? Ugh, if they wanted to end the marriage, they should have gone the divorce route, if Peter is supposed to be the "everyman", why don't go for realism? I mean, i don't think people make deals with the devil to finish marriages, right?

I also hate the Status Quo to say the truth, i loved when Dick Grayson was Batman, both in Knightfall and more recently as well, there were some amazing stories, you know? Better yet...The sales of the Batman comics actually went up when he was Batman, that's why it boggles my mind that it was such a short period. I think the problem with Lady Thor is about the name, most guys who wielded the hammer directly (won just the powers) kept their names, and there's the thing that Thor Odinson is really the guy's name, it's not a title (funny thing, in another forum i had a norwegian raging about this fact, and how it was like raping his culture or something like that), a lot of people have problem with that, besides it, is shoddy writing and mischaracterization of other characters, the comic just...Isn't good. Captain Falcon (hahahaha, i liked this way of calling him), is actually well received by the fans, because really, everyone loves Sam, and he was Cap's partner for so many years, that it just makes sense, i just don't understand all the fuss about he being "black captain america", since we had Isaiah Bradley, who was also Cap in WW2 as well...

Look, only C-list heroes die for an extended period of time, but then they are brought back or something like that. There are some characters that currently are dead, like professor Xavier, but that we know it's just temporary.

 

[WolfThomas]

So I'm confused about the Thor thing, how can anyone else be Thor? I mean Thor isn't a title, that's literally the guys name: Thor, not a job position or title but his actual name. Makes sense someone else can wield Mjornir since in the hammers case it's just a matter of being worthy, but wielding Mjolnir doesn't make someone into Thor, it just means they're wielding Thor's hammer.

Is that ever explained or is Thor a title in the Marvel setting? I'm lead to understand she isn't just a Thor that got hit with a villains gender-bending ray or something and that the original Thor is still around, so what's the story? I don't really read comics so the only thing I know about this change is that there's controversy about it, I've yet to have seen someone who could actually explain what's going on with the fem-Thor thing.

Nick Fury Sr (the original white guy) whispered a secret to Thor, which hasn't been revealed yet, that not only made him unworthy but that he decided to abandon his name, going by Odinson. An as yet unrevealed female character found the hammer and Thor/Odinson after initially opposing her gave his blessing and suggested because of the secret identity (she wears a masked helm/coif) she call herself Thor.

Thor/Odinson is bumming around shirtless with a cape, a dwarven metal arm replacing one he recently lost fighting Malekath. He wields an axe he had in his youth Jarnborn and rides one of his magical rams (seriously). He's actually pretty fun at the moment.

Spoiler: Recent Avengers spoilers from Hickman's series set in the near distant future prior to Secret Wars

Thor/Odinson and a superman like character Hyperion went on a likely suicide mission in another dimension. Thor wielded the hammer of "Thorr" an evil alternative universe Thor. This hammer needed the user to be Unworthy.

Thor/Odinson after deciding to die to try and save the universe, found he couldn't pick up the Hammer of Thorr. Implying he was once again worthy

Comics Everybody!

 

[The Madman]

Nick Fury Sr (the original white guy) whispered a secret to Thor, which hasn't been revealed yet, that not only made him unworthy but that he decided to abandon his name, going by Odinson. An as yet unrevealed female character found the hammer and Thor/Odinson after initially opposing her gave his blessing and suggested because of the secret identity (she wears a masked helm/coif) she call herself Thor.

Thor/Odinson is bumming around shirtless with a cape, a dwarven metal arm replacing one he recently lost fighting Malekath. He wields an axe he had in his youth Jarnborn and rides one of his magical rams (seriously). He's actually pretty fun at the moment.

Spoiler: Recent Avengers spoilers from Hickman's series set in the near distant future prior to Secret Wars

Thor/Odinson and a superman like character Hyperion went on a likely suicide mission in another dimension. Thor wielded the hammer of "Thorr" an evil alternative universe Thor. This hammer needed the user to be Unworthy.

Thor/Odinson after deciding to die to try and save the universe, found he couldn't pick up the Hammer of Thorr. Implying he was once again worthy

Comics Everybody!

So Thor was told some random secret that bummed him out so much he gave up the hero business and instead passed it on to some random lady who would take his place, name and all? Alright I guess, fair enough. The big secret and the womans identity both better be good though or it's all just going to be a pile of disappointment when they're inevitably revealed. As for the rest...

...

See, no offense, but this is why I don't read comics. This and all the seemingly constant reboots and multiple universes stuff. Like Batman is dead now, but not really, but maybe, but only in this one version of the setting? Also all the characters are different but now kinda the same, except more hip to be cool to the trendy kids or something? Universe 52 or something?

I dunno. From an observers perspective it's all insanity. In any case thank you for answering, that's one less bit of confusion for me at least.

 

[Mister K]

I do not think that people don't like changes per se. Most of the people in the forums, as far as I am aware, are eagerly waiting for something new, especially new characters.
But here is a thing though: People don't like it when EXISTING characters are changed. In my opinion, it is so because of the following:

a) People grew acustomed to those characters being the way they are and prefer to see them as they are;
b) Making changes to existing characters means that GN authors are trying to make something new to raise the sales without actually doing something, anything new and creative;
c) All those changes will be undone in 2 or 3 years with another "global cosmic event" so it all will be in some way pointless.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. Dick Grayson becoming Batman (that's what happening, right?) makes SENSE. Robin was student of Batman. Batman was his teacher, his master. It really does make sense when student takes the role of his master.

Meanwhile in Marvel: Thor is unworthy, give his powers to someone random.

 

[Fappy]

I do not think that people don't like changes per se. Most of the people in the forums, as far as I am aware, are eagerly waiting for something new, especially new characters.
But here is a thing though: People don't like it when EXISTING characters are changed. In my opinion, it is so because of the following:

a) People grew acustomed to those characters being the way they are and prefer to see them as they are;
b) Making changes to existing characters means that GN authors are trying to make something new to raise the sales without actually doing something, anything new and creative;
c) All those changes will be undone in 2 or 3 years with another "global cosmic event" so it all will be in some way pointless.

While I largely agree, let me play devil's advocate here for a second and ask: why does anything matter at all? Seriously, it's like your average comic reader just wants more and more pointless crap stacked onto the crap pile that is character continuity. If it's not a radical change to the character for 6 months then it's just the white noise in between. There are specific runs I really, really love that have been published in the last fifteen years, but you know what really sucks? Despite the fact that most of these things are still canon, none of them are relevant to the current storylines or characters.

I followed Marvel for roughly 11-12 years, a good time frame for many things that happened when I first started reading to remain relevant for a decade or so. A big part of why I stopped reading is that none of those stories I got invested in mattered anymore. The scars left on the heroes had miraculously healed through the passage of time (which is much shorter for them than it is for us). Honestly, traditional super hero comics just make for really shit long form story telling... and this is coming from a guy who used to know everything about Marvel T^T

 

[Zontar]

Is there such a thing as change in the first place? Everything always reverts to square one sooner or later.

Pretty much this, change only happened in the comic book industry during the 1960s and 70s, where DC had character development and Marvel had time pass by. Then in the 80s time came to a stop, a new status quo was formed, and now any change that is made is reversed within 2 years at the most, with the only exceptions being when DC decided to change things to a new status quo with New 52.

Basically the aversion to change stems from all change being meaningless, coupled with most of the few changes that actually stick being objectively worst then what came before it.

 

[Objectable]

Marvel has been pulling out all the stops for new characters. See: Ms. Marvel, Captai nAmerica, Thor, etc.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Escapist... y u do dis to me... Made a long ass wall of text, now I have to redo it in super-condensed version. Great.

I'm surprised you like Earth 2. In my opinion it's the worst written, paced, and drawn series in all the New 52, and that's saying something.

Anyway, three reasons:

1) They don't last. Ever. Batman's still alive. So is Supes, Wonder Woman, Flash, the other Flash, the other other Flash, and any fucking superhero ever.

2) When you change something, you also lose something. You can't just change one thing and copy everything else. That would just piss off everyone, even those on opposite sides. More often than not, what is lost is something the fans happen to love.

3) They're kind of never good, or not better than the old.

Fem-Thor: First off, why is she being called Thor? Thor is not a title or a role, he's a fucking person. I haven't read her comics, so I don't know too much about her. I just don't like the way people have painted her as a symbol of feminism, or at least that feminism. I mean, they made Odin a sexist dick just to make her look more heroic. Also, I don't like her look. She is so small carrying Mjolnir should break her spine, and her helmet and eyes make her look like a fish. Anyway, Thor is still alive and kicking, and has a series. It's an example of number of problem #1.

Captain Falcon (Oh God do they really call him that?): Bleh. Me no likey. How exactly is an ordinary man supposed to throw a huge metal frisbee with the accuracy of a laser guided missile without any training or enhanced brain matter? And he kept his wings. Why does he even need to be called Captain America then? What makes Cap so special that another hero needs a new name and paintjob to do Cap's work? Why, so a popular hero gets to be black, making the universe more "diverse"? What. You just got rid of an established and original black superhero and replaced him with a Falcon who spilled blue paint on himself and uses a garbage can cover as a weapon. At least in this case it makes some sense. Falcon is a longtime buddy of Cap- but then Bucky was even longer. This one's an example of 1 and 3. Caps still around. Probably will be until he gets his powers back.

Miles Morales: Why would anyone have a problem with him? Unless he's written or drawn bad or something. He isn't the kind of change comic book fans get angry about. He's new and fresh, his own character. He's not replacing anyone. I kinda like him actually.

Surprised you didn't mention this, so I'll just bring it up. Wally West: An example of all three. One: He's going to get replaced. The pre-New 52 Wally has his own series in Convergence. So yeah, so much for the new Wally. Two: New 52 Wally is a mopey, unfunny, badly dressed, piece of shit. I loved Wally's costume, his jokes, hell his hair. He was the most prominent Flash! The fastest man alive among the fastest men alive. All that's gone now. If only it was Manapul and Buccellato who had done him... Three: He just sucks. Even if the old Wally didn't exist, no one would like him anyway. He's just plain bad.

 

[Erttheking]

Same reason everything gets pissy over everything. Sometimes it's legitimate complaints about changes that actually make the thing worse, sometimes it's being a purist and saying that any change is bad (a mindset that pretty much ignores how the creative process works) and some people because that change looks like it might make people that the complainers don't like happy. And we can NEVER have that.

Also there's that thing Critical Miss said a wee ways back. "When I say developers should listen to their customers, I meant they should listen to ME"

People are selfish. Pure and simple.

 

[Scarim Coral]

How do you know this is apply to online readers only?

OT- I'm fine with changed just as long it is justify (Miles became Spider-man after the Ultimate Peter Parker was killed and for not does not effect the 616 continuity) and the rest (story, character etc) are still good.

Example- from what I gather, people have been unhappy with the New 52 so they decided to reboot it yet again in the Convegence story arc.

Also from my comicbook experiences, any changes made are NEVER pernament for the most part. Death in comicbook are laughable theses days as long the superhero/ villain are popular and has a decent size fanbase and take a good look at "Superior Spider-Man". It's now back to Spectacular Spider-man!!