Poll: Why are comic book readers so averse to change?

[WolfThomas]

I wonder if a lot the people who are don't like the tendency of superhero comics return status quo eventually would like the post siege Loki stuff (Journey into Mystery-Loki run, Agent of Asgard) as it very much about that.

I guess the most important thing about the Loki stuff is that it was good. I don't so much mind the return to status quo. Though the "Third" Loki we're on is still pretty interesting.

 

[DementedSheep]

I wonder if a lot the people who are don't like the tendency of superhero comics return status quo eventually would like the post siege Loki stuff (Journey into Mystery-Loki run, Agent of Asgard) as it very much about that.

I guess the most important thing about the Loki stuff is that it was good. I don't so much mind the return to status quo. Though the "Third" Loki we're on is still pretty interesting.

That to of course, it just you mentioned it and it reminded me of the thread topic. I was pretty sceptical of AoA but it's actually a really solid, fun book.

I keep hearing praise for Dare Devil books everywhere so I might start picking that up at some point.

I don't mind the status qou thing too much because I don't read enough of Marvel for that to really become an issue. I just pick up whatever looks interesting to me at the time for long as it remains interesting (or as long as I can afford it anyway).

 

[Scarim Coral]

How do you know this is apply to online readers only?

I specify online because that's where I find it. Isn't it safe to assume most comic book fans are online anyway?

Yeah but from the title, it sounded like it apply to digital readers, you know reading the comic on a digital format than a physical copies of it.

 

[Bizzaro Stormy]

Whenever I read an article about Lady Thor, Captain Falcon, or Miles Morales I find a slew of comments showing irrational disdain toward these characters. They complain about Thor becoming a woman as if they don't know Lady Thor is not a gender Bent Thor. They complain about Spider-man becoming black, even though Peter Parker (Earth-616) is still alive and well. I guess I can understand the complaints about Wilson inheriting the mantle of Captain America, but the complaints emphasize what I don't like about comic books in general. The lack of change.

My favorite New 52 series is Earth 2. Why? Because Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman die in the first issue. I don't think anyone could possibly understand how happy I was to see them die and see the world move on without them. Is it too much to ask Dick Grayson too take up the mantle of Batman after Bruce Wayne dies in a blaze of glory? Is it too much to ask for Superman to do the same? Is it too much to ask these changes remain permanent?

Anyway, all I'm asking here is, are you averse to change in your Comic Books? Why or why not? I would also like to hear your opinion on Lady Thor, Captain Falcon, and Miles Morales.

I never read nor do I intend to read any Thor comics. However, I've heard of this Lady Thor thing and it seems like there's a simple solution. Declare her a Valkyrie. The Norse warrior woman who carry the dead to Valhalla and kick ass in the meantime. She can be considered Thor's adopted daughter and even introduce herself that way. Perhaps her efforts to become famous in her own right and claim a new name for herself by virtue of her deeds can be a storyline. All better.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

He's going to get his hammer back and their can't be two Thor's running about. They will have to change her name eventually. I don't see a problem with some no name taking up Thor's hammer. It wouldn't be the first time worthier is passed over.

Except... Thor isn't going to get his hammer back. He's dead. And by dead, I mean dead dead. As in not coming back for no reason dead. In the latest issue of New avengers but him and Hyperion were slaughtered by a wave of The Beyonders/Ivory Kings. These guys killed the Tribunal/Celestials/Eternity--every single cosmic being that had unstoppable power barring the One Above All. Thor Odinson is gone beyond a point of returning alive even though right before his death he found out her could no longer life the hammer of Thorr--which made him worthy of his own hammer again.

This is cemented as he is not in the Thor Corp in secret wars.

I had no idea that Thor died, but I'm not sure his lack of presence in Thor Corp cements this. All it takes is a smidge of nostalgia for Thor to crash back into action. Still, if there is a chance that Thor has actually permanently died, I'll have to read it. I just hope he went out like a Hero and not a chump. If Thor is going to stay dead, then I don't mind Lady Thor having his name. Giving his name to someone else sounds like something someone like Thor would do.

Lady Thor: Lacks characterization (although I recognize they can't give her too much character without actually revealing her secret identity, which would ruin the mystery around her). I like the concept of her, though. Again, bonus points for diversity. And the story being told around her is pretty good stuff (amazing art too).

Though the writing can become a little too preachy at times. An example of this is the massive character derailment that has taken place in order for the author to make a stance about social issues (Odin and Titania being the most notorious victims). Not that I disagree with the points he's trying to make, but I dislike the author turning one of my favorite characters into a massive jackass (Odin) in order to have me being preached to about stuff I already know and isn't as controverted as the author thinks.

As for the name controversy. at first I rolled my eyes and thought "meh, I guess it's good for brand recognition". Then reading Thor Odinson go on and on about how he's not worthy of his birth name given to him by his mom when he was a baby. That kind of pissed me off. Apparently the name "Thor" became a title from one day to the next without any convincing explanation. OK, as long as they keep writing good stories it's not really that important. I just hope they fix Odin soon.

Odin has always struck me as wise man. Certainly not the type to tell his wife to "Know your place!". To his kids? Hell yeah, but his wife? Seems very out of character. And the Destroyer situation going on right now? It all seems very... odd. I can only assume something happened during his exile.

Lady Thor and Sam Wilson seem to be going through similar things. They're both trying to fill some big ass boots and the disapproval they recieve in the comics mirrors the type of comments that led to my making this thread. "He isn't MY Captain America."

Yeah but from the title, it sounded like it apply to digital readers, you know reading the comic on a digital format than a physical copies of it.

Alright, I'll change the name. The online part feels a little unnecessary now that I've thought about it.

 

[SidheKnight]

Odin has always struck me as wise man. Certainly not the type to tell his wife to "Know your place!". To his kids? Hell yeah, but his wife? Seems very out of character. And the Destroyer situation going on right now? It all seems very... odd. I can only assume something happened during his exile.

The current fan-theory is that his brother Cul Borson is somehow controlling his mind, or influencing him. That would be why Odin is so ready to trust him, despite all evidence pointing to Cul being a treacherous son of a b*tch.

Thor and Sam Wilson seem to be going through similar things. They're both trying to fill some big ass boots and the disapproval they recieve in the comics mirrors the type of comments that led to my making this thread. "He isn't MY Captain America."

Yeah, I think that's intentional on part of the authors. Though it sounds a little too preachy and meta. The reporters on Captain America's book practically described him as "Affirmative Action Cap". They couldn't sound more like Straw-man caricatures of Fox News pundits (well, maybe they're not that exaggerated, knowing Fox News pundits). I like Sam Wilson as Cap, he's a very logical successor, but I don't think that the people that dislike him are racists.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

It's this weird balance between trying new stuff, and staying with what we're used to. The comic industry feels like it's gotta do both, so it does both in some of the worst ways possible. Regardless, we generally need time to adjust.
I needed time to adjust to Sam Jackson Fury after knowing Fury as a more David hasselhoff sorta guy all my life. I did adjust, though.
It really is hit and miss.

It's not like they can make a new comicbook character, and have them successful enough to keep, so we get characters that ride the coat tails of those that came before to help them along.
Can't just reinvent a character with any level of reliability either coz readers need stability.
And it's a matter of being able to give the new character a push in the right way so they have the chance to get popular.
The character has to be appealing not just to the reader, but to the artist that draws them coz they have to be able to picture the power in action.
And when a character is being pushed, fucking undermining how far they've come doesn't help. They need all the momentum they can get, and they gotta look good doing it. Yeah, they can face peril, and hardships, but it's how they are after all of that that matters.
I imagine it's really complex. I probably haven't nailed it, but I has my opinions.

 

[loa]

I don't care about superhero comics for that reason.
Of course there will always be a batman doing his thing because who in their right mind would end the "batman" franchise?
Consequently, the "batman" storyline will never really conclude and just drag on and on, get a little reboot that changes everything but not really and drag on forever.
I like stories that have an ending. Makes what happens between start and finish more meaningful. Makes the story itself have weight.

Take fullmetal alchemist for example.
There is no "fullmetal alchemist ultra future redux" or whatever happening that continues the story of fullmetal alchemist and magically revivifies all the characters that died to restore the status quo, the story is just done because, while it has great characters, the focus was never solely on them, they were just means to the end of telling a story.

With superhero comics it is the other way around.
Here are your characters, build a story around them that makes them look cool.
Also those goofy costumes and names. Can't get over those.
Like, if there was only 1 "batman" it was okay-ish but if they team up like in injustice and just talk about how superman attacked batman but then cowgirl saved the day by slapping ultimatron deathstarior and making him real mad or something all serious like, I just can't take that kind of cheese.
Can't handle the cheese.

Watchmen was neat though because it deconstructed that cheese and a ton of stuff changed in that story so I guess no, I am not averse to that.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Comic books are like MMOs in a sense. They are without end and never changing. You can enjoy discrete story arcs but after it's over, another artist will tell a different story. Like James Bond, superheroes don't age either. They can die and return, be placed in different timelines/universes and there's rarely that most treasured of story aspects...continuity; at least not outside of a given arc.

That's not to say that singular stories can't be told in the medium...They can and often are (Watchmen and V for Vendetta f.ex). If you want a story with a beginning, middle and end, novels our graphic novels are a better bet.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

I don't really read comics, but I have enough familiarity to agree with what someone wrote earlier: they never really do change.

Ultimately, the original characters come back, or the hero regains their powers, or the hero/villain isn't really dead, or they travel back in time and undo whatever it was that sent it on this huge other story arc, or they go to a different dimension where things are the same, etc etc, blah blah blah.

So really, I think it annoys people because so much of the "change" that happens in comics just feels like lame gimmicks tacked on to try and throw new stuff in and keep it fresh, but it doesn't fundamentally alter anything. And it feels especially gimmicky when it seems like it's trying to score "progressive points" by changing established character to be minorities or women or what have you. Let's be real: do you really think "Lady Thor" is going to last? I have serious doubts.

 

[Ramzal]

He's going to get his hammer back and their can't be two Thor's running about. They will have to change her name eventually. I don't see a problem with some no name taking up Thor's hammer. It wouldn't be the first time worthier is passed over.

Except... Thor isn't going to get his hammer back. He's dead. And by dead, I mean dead dead. As in not coming back for no reason dead. In the latest issue of New avengers but him and Hyperion were slaughtered by a wave of The Beyonders/Ivory Kings. These guys killed the Tribunal/Celestials/Eternity--every single cosmic being that had unstoppable power barring the One Above All. Thor Odinson is gone beyond a point of returning alive even though right before his death he found out her could no longer life the hammer of Thorr--which made him worthy of his own hammer again.

This is cemented as he is not in the Thor Corp in secret wars.

I had no idea that Thor died, but I'm not sure his lack of presence in Thor Corp cements this. All it takes is a smidge of nostalgia for Thor to crash back into action. Still, if there is a chance that Thor has actually permanently died, I'll have to read it. I just hope he went out like a Hero and not a chump. If Thor is going to stay dead, then I don't mind Lady Thor having his name. Giving his name to someone else sounds like something someone like Thor would do.

Small derail here.

New Avengers vol 3 # 32. It's worth picking up; if for anything a brotherly bond that Thor and Hyperion developed for each other over the incursions run and yeah he went down swinging. I could be wrong about this but the method in which the Beyonders are killing being revitalized to the point where Mr. Fantastic tried to get Franklin to fix everything and the process just ended up killing him. As far as Lady Thor goes I have no issue with her as long as she is written well and not made out to make people who aren't happy with the changes look like apparently now sexist Crusher Creel when there weren't hints of that before. He married Titania and had a stable relationship with her for awhile and while he is kind of an ass to people in general he's never been like he was portrayed in Thor #5.

To be honest the whole "Can't be easy for you. Hasn't been for me" talk from Titania was such garbage. Normally the problem super heroes have with the people viewing them in a certain light is generally just not knowing who they are at all. Captain Marvel took down Stilt-man when she was Ms. Marvel and his response wasn't sexist bs. It was "Lady, I don't even know who you are!"

Want a character who really knows the struggle? Two words: Booster Gold. Ha...

Edit: I stand corrected. I was told that Absorbing man did break out some sexist talk on Captain Marvel lately but probably not much before that point? I suppose this is a new direction for Absorbing man to be this way towards female super heroes. Don't know why namely since She-Hulk has handed him his rear several times already.

 

[Lightknight]

This shows a complete lack of confidence in their ability to write a legitimate female character as well as a lack of confidence in their entire roster. Instead the have to appropriate from a male superhero that's popular to try and hijack their popularity for the boost. At least heroines like Spider Woman have their own name. They didn't even give this Thor a unique monicker. She's forever stuck with another character's name until that changes. It's the same problem Miles Morales faces. If they could just give them their own names they'd have a better shot at longevity. If you really think about it. Naming the girl the same name as the male super hero is even worse than slapping "woman" or "girl" on the end.

I wouldn't say Miles Morales has that problem. Miles took over after Peter Parker died. The whole point of taking on the Spider-Man name was to keep it alive. Thor, on the other hand, still lives. Calling her Thor was a mistake. Unlike the death of Parker, Thor's rut is temporary. He's going to get his hammer back and their can't be two Thor's running about. They will have to change her name eventually. I don't see a problem with some no name taking up Thor's hammer. It wouldn't be the first time worthier is passed over.

Except Peter is already alive in that Universe again. Though now he's decided to leave the city and pursue the white picket fence despite having all his powers. He's already suited up to pull Miles out of the fire once.

The issue is that Miles is relegated to only that universe and even there he's not as good as Peter at being spiderman. Though, that struggle to become as good is part of the whole reason for his arc. He should be given his own moniker to be able to become mainstream. It will eventually have to happen too.

As for the Thor storyline, I'm hoping it's Valkyrie under that helmet. It'd be nice to see her around again.

I'm still holding out for a prominent Sif. All they really need to do is start writing their story. Start including them in the Avengers. Stuff like that. They need to stop shoehorning them into existing characters and robbing them of their own stories.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Except Peter is already alive in that Universe again. Though now he's decided to leave the city and pursue the white picket fence despite having all his powers. He's already suited up to pull Miles out of the fire once.

The issue is that Miles is relegated to only that universe and even there he's not as good as Peter at being spiderman. Though, that struggle to become as good is part of the whole reason for his arc. He should be given his own moniker to be able to become mainstream. It will eventually have to happen too.

As for the Thor storyline, I'm hoping it's Valkyrie under that helmet. It'd be nice to see her around again.

I'm still holding out for a prominent Sif. All they really need to do is start writing their story. Start including them in the Avengers. Stuff like that. They need to stop shoehorning them into existing characters and robbing them of their own stories.

A right, I totally forgot about that. I haven't read Ultimate Spider-man since the Cataclysm event. I did hear about it, but I assumed he was just a clone. Is he the genuine article? I agree that it'll have to happen eventually. Especially if the Ultimate universe goes bye-bye and Miles joins 616, which seems to be the case.

Small derail here.

New Avengers vol 3 # 32. It's worth picking up; if for anything a brotherly bond that Thor and Hyperion developed for each other over the incursions run and yeah he went down swinging. I could be wrong about this but the method in which the Beyonders are killing being revitalized to the point where Mr. Fantastic tried to get Franklin to fix everything and the process just ended up killing him. As far as Lady Thor goes I have no issue with her as long as she is written well and not made out to make people who aren't happy with the changes look like apparently now sexist Crusher Creel when there weren't hints of that before. He married Titania and had a stable relationship with her for awhile and while he is kind of an ass to people in general he's never been like he was portrayed in Thor #5.

To be honest the whole "Can't be easy for you. Hasn't been for me" talk from Titania was such garbage. Normally the problem super heroes have with the people viewing them in a certain light is generally just not knowing who they are at all. Captain Marvel took down Stilt-man when she was Ms. Marvel and his response wasn't sexist bs. It was "Lady, I don't even know who you are!"

Want a character who really knows the struggle? Two words: Booster Gold. Ha...

Edit: I stand corrected. I was told that Absorbing man did break out some sexist talk on Captain Marvel lately but probably not much before that point? I suppose this is a new direction for Absorbing man to be this way towards female super heroes. Don't know why namely since She-Hulk has handed him his rear several times already.

I will definitely pick it up asap. And yes, the Titania moment felt way too ridiculous. It's easily the worst moment in all 5 chapters, imo. Has Titania ever let someone knock her out before? Well, I'd rather Creel get get possessed by the Patriarchy, for the sake of a hamfisted attempt at feminism, then the likes of Odin. That is the true crime here. I support this new Thor, but issue 5 disappoints me greatly.

Speaking of, I'd definitely like to learn exactly what it is Nick said to Thor that bummed the guy out so much. The only fan theory I like is Nick whispering, "I faked every orgasm" into Thor's ear. I'm sure these words would make anyone unworthy.

snip

Yeah, that's definitely one thing even the most Shounen of manga have over comics. Eventually, they come to an end. Some may last an excruciating amount of time, like Detective Conan, but they don't last forever.

 

[Eddie the head]

As another user pointed out, the only reboot I've seen much dislike for is Lady Thor, and that's mainly because the dialogue is so awful it goes beyond cheesy and into the realm of sad.

Spoiler: Seriously?

Spoiler: Yes, seriously

Spoiler: Is all comic writing this bad?

It reads like it was written by a 13 year old tumblrite.

Echh. That was painful. I can see why people dislike change if that's what it changes into.

 

[Lightknight]

Except Peter is already alive in that Universe again. Though now he's decided to leave the city and pursue the white picket fence despite having all his powers. He's already suited up to pull Miles out of the fire once.

The issue is that Miles is relegated to only that universe and even there he's not as good as Peter at being spiderman. Though, that struggle to become as good is part of the whole reason for his arc. He should be given his own moniker to be able to become mainstream. It will eventually have to happen too.

As for the Thor storyline, I'm hoping it's Valkyrie under that helmet. It'd be nice to see her around again.

I'm still holding out for a prominent Sif. All they really need to do is start writing their story. Start including them in the Avengers. Stuff like that. They need to stop shoehorning them into existing characters and robbing them of their own stories.

A right, I totally forgot about that. I haven't read Ultimate Spider-man since the Cataclysm event. I did hear about it, but I assumed he was just a clone. Is he the genuine article? I agree that it'll have to happen eventually. Especially if the Ultimate universe goes bye-bye and Miles joins 616, which seems to be the case.

I don't know if he's the real article or not. I am only aware up past the point where he swoops in to save the day for Miles and then decides to retire.

 

[Gorrath]

As another user pointed out, the only reboot I've seen much dislike for is Lady Thor, and that's mainly because the dialogue is so awful it goes beyond cheesy and into the realm of sad.

Spoiler: Seriously?

Spoiler: Yes, seriously

Spoiler: Is all comic writing this bad?

It reads like it was written by a 13 year old tumblrite.

I have not read any of the new Thor. I kinda like the idea of female Thor and don't have any issue with the gender change at all. Hell, the power comes from the hammer and the hammer just picks someone worthy, so if we can have Beta Ray Bill, why not? But that dialogue... holy crap that dialogue is awful!

 

[WhiteNachos]

Why is it instead of saying "why don't comic book fans like the changes I want to see" you say, "why do they fear change". That seems really underhanded and straw manny. I mean imagine if someone made changes to comic books you didn't like and when you complained you were just dismissed as "oh you just don't like change". Not all change is good, at one point Prohibition was considered a progressive idea in the US (and it was a colossal failure).

As for these changes, I've seen some pictures of female Thor's comic books and assuming they weren't shopped, it's really preachy, heavy handed and full of feminist lectures where female Thor battles the evil non-feminist straw men. And if that's real why would you be surprised when people don't like it.

By the way calling her Thor is really stupid. Thor's not a title, it's his name. It'be like if Barack Obama died and then Joe Biden (the vice President), walked up to a podium and said "I am the new Barack Obama now".

And I can understand why they don't want these changes, they want to see comics featuring the characters they know and love, not have them replaced with new people for no real reason. That's why you don't see them complain when there's new characters.

What I don't understand is the people who want them to change in the first place. As if they can't enjoy a piece of fiction unless the main character is black or whatever. Seems needlessly focused on race.

 

[AT God]

Humans are resistant to change, regardless of the context. If they recast Peter Dinklage in Game of Thrones, there would be the same sort of behavior from certain people. Often times when you enjoy something, you have an intense desire to keep it from changing because change can be bad or good, while if you are enjoying something you will feel it doesn't need to change. I never really read comic books, to me the idea of watching Batman foil the Joker's plan at the last minute would stop being interesting after about 3 repetitions, however there are people who would read a comic book where Joker sets a trap, and Batman foils it at the last moment over and over if it were slightly changed each time, and because they enjoy that idea they would be upset if it were changed.

I really loved Team Fortress 2, vanilla TF2 was the best multiplayer game I have ever played. I could play 2fort for 5 hours everyday and always have fun, it was repetitive but I enjoyed it. And when Valve decided to update the game and upset this perfect balance I enjoyed I got incredibly mad. I'll bet half of the first hundred or so posts I did here were in threads talking about how shit TF2 is now. Whenever a story would post something like "New TF2 Gamemode" or something I would always comment about how horrible the game is and how I am definitely right and millions of other people are wrong. I understand now why I was so upset which lets me sympathize with other people when they get upset by changes.

Also, I have no idea how many people regularly read comic books but I am assuming it is many thousands of people, possibly millions. I have yet to see any article about a change to comic books with thousands of unique responses. When something happens that is perceived as bad for video games (blaming violence on games, Australia banning games, EA existing) there aren't a hundred million unique comments about things, there might be thousands of really angry people but that puts them in an insane minority, like hundreds of thousandths of a percent compared to the known amount of people who actually play video games.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Why do you equate "comic book readers" with "American superhero style comics readers"?

There's a lot more out there, broaden your horizon: read some of the fine (translated and uncensored) French / Brazilian / Belgian / Japanese comics for a change.

Granted, the uncensored part might be difficult.

 

[ExDeath730]

Ok, since this is the thread for that.

The new Batman identity post-convergence has been leaked, and it seems that it's Jim Gordon in a Power Armor, comic book fans are losing their shit on several forums, specially the most partizan Batman fans. So, what do you guys think about it? It's too much? It's ok? You're kind of curious to see how it will went down