Okay I am the evilest evil that ever eviled when it comes to games. The reason I say this is I relished the deaths every character in undertale. Edgy edgelord I know. I don't enjoy it because I'm a sociopath I enjoy it because killing them is actively rebelling against the morals they're trying to press on me that I don't agree with. It's a game and always will be and I refuse to take it anymore seriously. Although killing dogs no matter in what medium just makes me feel sad if there is any part of the genocide route that I would criticize its that you have to kill dogs in it.
Poll: Why does nobody seem to have the balls to criticize Undertale and its genocide mode?
- Thread starter Epyc Wynn
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Hm... okay so I shouldn't criticize the game because it criticizes me?Cid Silverwing said:
Welp okay I guess every meta game that ever criticized a player ever gets an automatic 10/10 with no in-depth criticism of any variety. Everyone go home folks thread's closed we aren't allowed to criticize a game if it's criticizing us. Real egg on my face here oh woe is me. God hath reigned great humbling upon my prideful demeanor. I am but the sand on the beach of gaming criticism without purpose or basis.
Anyway back to criticizing Genocide mode, they are not real beings and if the game's criticizing me for something I don't feel i should be criticized for, then of course I am naturally going to criticize the game for criticizing me. And if you wish to criticize me for criticizing the game for criticizing me then I am going to criticize your criticism of me criticizing the game's criticism of me because I fundamentally disagree. The game should not make it so only the most elite of the elite determined players can beat it just because it's wanting to make a point that the world doesn't want you to win. I paid to play a game with meaning and quality about it with a gameplay curve that's fair in its gradual increase in difficulty. If the game wishes to throw a ridiculous difficulty at me without proper buildup or fairness on the basis "I don't want you to win" then it naturally bothers me I cannot fully enjoy the product I purchased. For that matter, I don't even agree with the game's message that if you take the genocide route you better be the most powerful determined player ever. Maybe I just wanna enjoy the game? I could swallow the dark story a bit better if I at least knew the game was going to give me a fair fighting chance to win instead of rigging things to only be fun for a niche group of A-rank players that are willing to try over and over. I don't want to watch a let's play of Genocide Mode I want to play Genocide Mode.
As for the hypocrisy on determination, there isn't any. You have to be determined to beat genocide mode. You have to be determined (to a lesser degree) to beat pacifist mode.
it's called genocide mode, you're not supposed to like it or enjoy it, you're supposed to feel bad about your actions, that's why it's so well done. The game makes you feel bad for murdering innocent people, it's not badly design, you're just a normal person that views murder as a bad thing
Ever play Skyrim or Morrowind or some open world game where you always had the opportunity to kill NPCs? Ever end a playing session by saving your game and wiping out a city before just turning the game off (without saving)? Kind of fun to do with no consequences or costs. If I could be convinced that the assembly of 1's and 0's had feelings then I'd feel very differently. But someone wrote those animations and that AI and the objects feel nothing in current tech.GZGoten said:
There isn't really too much that can be said that hasn't already been troden on by others, quite frankly.
-It'd probably be better for discussion if you didn't seem so antagonistic in your responses to people. And even in the thread title. Like, seriously, you come off not wanting to talk about anything, and wanting to fight, when there are so many insults in your comments.
-Genocide Mode is about 10% of Undertale's content. The Neutral Endings actually form about 80% of it, and by that I mean repeat plays and going through saves to muck about with time. Pacifist, that last 10%, is just a slight extension off of the best possible Neutral Ending. So no, I wouldn't say that "half the game is locked off" by difficulty.
-Difficulty is subjective. Maybe you just need to practice more to beat Undyne. It's certainly not impossible. Try playing Touhou if you'd like some practice at this sort of thing.
-Sans is -not- easier than Undyne. Not by a long shot. Difficulty is subjective, yes, but he's got double her health (assuming you don't waste time healing) and can attack you far more/longer than she can. Easily far more lethal. And for good reason, being the final boss. (...kinda tickled pink when I went back after fighting him and he was like "That look on your face... you're a fucking freak, bro". Smug bastard.)
-If you went around murdering every single person in your country, starting with the most innocent, just because you could, do you think it's unfair that you'd eventually get people more than willing/capable of killing you in response? Undertale just decided to be one of the games that decided to take the world seriously / was made in a way -to- take itself seriously. ...I don't know how to word this in a way that doesn't sound rude, but I assume you didn't care enough about the world itself to justify having no remorse in killing everything up to Undyne? I just get that impression because of how much more the difficulty seems to matter to you. In any case, I guess games that take themselves seriously in that regard aren't your cup of tea?
-...."the game is making you feel bad for enjoying it". Kind of the point? Most people -shouldn't- enjoy being able to wander around and just murder everything that exists. You say "this reminds me that murder is wrong" like it's a bad thing.
-I wouldn't say that Genocide Mode is an Easter Egg. I'd in fact say that it's the skeleton of the game. Because it's easy to be good if there's no option to be evil. Choosing to be a Hero when there's no other choice, or when it's simple to flip back and forth, makes being a Hero honestly not that special. It's being a Hero when you're actually being judged for it that gives it relevance at all. Without Genocide Mode, without all those neutral endings in which various groups of people are suffering worse because of your self indulgence, without the game telling you it knows you've been being a selfish bastard doing things because you don't care about the consequences, Undertale wouldn't have the worth that it does.
You look at it (probably hurt a bit by you knowing the big picture, rather than experiencing it with your own eyes; I played it the first time with a friend who enjoys grinding on monsters for money and I helped them get through Undyne and Sans myself, then tried to go through the "proper" way, and fucking cried when I got the Corrupted Ending with that DAMNED LAUGH. Made me feel sad inside when I played on my own and got the Pacifist Ending.) and go "this is bullshit!". I believe you were intended to look at it and go "...oooooooh.". Sad to see the message lost in translation (that was meant as straight-forward as possible).
-It'd probably be better for discussion if you didn't seem so antagonistic in your responses to people. And even in the thread title. Like, seriously, you come off not wanting to talk about anything, and wanting to fight, when there are so many insults in your comments.
-Genocide Mode is about 10% of Undertale's content. The Neutral Endings actually form about 80% of it, and by that I mean repeat plays and going through saves to muck about with time. Pacifist, that last 10%, is just a slight extension off of the best possible Neutral Ending. So no, I wouldn't say that "half the game is locked off" by difficulty.
-Difficulty is subjective. Maybe you just need to practice more to beat Undyne. It's certainly not impossible. Try playing Touhou if you'd like some practice at this sort of thing.
-Sans is -not- easier than Undyne. Not by a long shot. Difficulty is subjective, yes, but he's got double her health (assuming you don't waste time healing) and can attack you far more/longer than she can. Easily far more lethal. And for good reason, being the final boss. (...kinda tickled pink when I went back after fighting him and he was like "That look on your face... you're a fucking freak, bro". Smug bastard.)
-If you went around murdering every single person in your country, starting with the most innocent, just because you could, do you think it's unfair that you'd eventually get people more than willing/capable of killing you in response? Undertale just decided to be one of the games that decided to take the world seriously / was made in a way -to- take itself seriously. ...I don't know how to word this in a way that doesn't sound rude, but I assume you didn't care enough about the world itself to justify having no remorse in killing everything up to Undyne? I just get that impression because of how much more the difficulty seems to matter to you. In any case, I guess games that take themselves seriously in that regard aren't your cup of tea?
-...."the game is making you feel bad for enjoying it". Kind of the point? Most people -shouldn't- enjoy being able to wander around and just murder everything that exists. You say "this reminds me that murder is wrong" like it's a bad thing.
-I wouldn't say that Genocide Mode is an Easter Egg. I'd in fact say that it's the skeleton of the game. Because it's easy to be good if there's no option to be evil. Choosing to be a Hero when there's no other choice, or when it's simple to flip back and forth, makes being a Hero honestly not that special. It's being a Hero when you're actually being judged for it that gives it relevance at all. Without Genocide Mode, without all those neutral endings in which various groups of people are suffering worse because of your self indulgence, without the game telling you it knows you've been being a selfish bastard doing things because you don't care about the consequences, Undertale wouldn't have the worth that it does.
You look at it (probably hurt a bit by you knowing the big picture, rather than experiencing it with your own eyes; I played it the first time with a friend who enjoys grinding on monsters for money and I helped them get through Undyne and Sans myself, then tried to go through the "proper" way, and fucking cried when I got the Corrupted Ending with that DAMNED LAUGH. Made me feel sad inside when I played on my own and got the Pacifist Ending.) and go "this is bullshit!". I believe you were intended to look at it and go "...oooooooh.". Sad to see the message lost in translation (that was meant as straight-forward as possible).
I'll give you the difficulty point, as it IS poor game design to not have a proper difficulty curve, especially on such a hard mode. I know why he did it, story-wise, but I will give you that point on a design perspective.Epyc Wyn said:
But the story should be able to freely criticize you for doing the Bad Things. If it didn't, or if it had a "hey, but it's just a game" dialogue in there, it would compromise the whole feel of the game. It would ruin the whole point of that story arc. It would be like if Pacifist Run Sans would go "Hey, it's just a game, why do you care if anyone here is happy and safe?". It would totally ruin the experience and the feelings.
I guarantee you, if the game had softened the blow and said "hey, it's just a game" during the genocide path and blunted the emotional impact, there would be a topic like this right now on the escapist saying "Why the hell didn't Genocide mode have the balls to actually criticize the player? Why did it hold back? Did Toby Fox not believe we'd be able to handle it? Why did he compromise the whole buildup of the game as its own internal world where Saving and Resetting and death is so serious and then go 'lol it's just a game' on one of the most impactful paths?"
Yes, it makes him an asshole. I never said it doesnt. But that's how it is. You maybe dont like it that way, but as i said the characters in this game have very grave and horrible flaws. We've multiple murderers, racists, crazy scientists who experiment on living beings and then try to hide everything. Many of characters are horrible beings which have done horrible deeds.Nazulu said:
Sans just stopped giving a fuck. He tells you. "I stopped trying to go back a long time ago". He's like this for a really long time. And in monster time this could mean hundreds of years btw, since the Human vs Monster war was millenias ago and the turtle shopkeeper was fighting in it, so they clearly can live for hundreds of years.
If you 100% know that everyone who dies, just comes back - because the reports tell you, it already happened dozens if not hundreds of times before, why bother?
Depression can be one deep fuckin' hole, where the suffering of others just doesn't reach you anymore. I've been there, it's not pleasant, maybe that's why i can relate with Sans that much.
Well, it's unfair if you go and say: "The story could be diffrent, but hey that bridge is the only bridge because the story says so." If we open up all possiblities, then i'm pretty convinced there's more than 1 way into Hotland and their main city of the underground.Nazulu said:
See, in this discussion you can't switch from outside and inside perspective to make an argument, because it meddles with everything.
From the ingame perspective only 3 characters know about SAVE, and 1 of them doesn't know how it exactly works. So that leaves Flowey and Frisk/Chara. You underestimate the combination of immortality and time control, because you're approaching the status of a deity at that point, specially combined with that much LOVE. I mean Chara can destroy the whole world with 1 strike and survive in the void she created.
Look, the monsters see a human appearing and slaughtering everyone and the first thing they do is evacute the people, which doesn't sound that bad. And then they use their strongest fighters to stop the threat, but they fail. Why is that so far fetched?
Maybe the fact that they didn't bomb the bridge means, there are other ways into Hotland? But see, there's a limit of scope for the indie game too. We could discuss every possible outcome, but it's nothing more than intellectual wankery like every discussion about what-if's in games/movies/mangas ever.
Because in the end we're limited to what the author shows us and we can't assume anything besides that, because we don't know if our assumptions are correct.
But from what we've seen in game in all 3 runs it's clear that nothing stops Frisk incredible determined soul as long as the player behind it will keep on going. It has a very strong similarity with how the Souls Series talks about the undeads. It's similar in that the only reason Frisk or the Chose One will fail their task is if the player behind it gives up - only then the Undead becomes hollow and only then Frisks souls is acutally in the hands of the monsters.
And that's also why Sans is stalling time, he knows you can't be beat the player will always carry on - unless he gets so bored/frustrated he just gives up.
And i know 2 of my friends who couldnt' beat Sans so they just dropped the game and never came back. Seems to work.
Why bother!? Because then he'll have nothing else! When he became aggressive the first time and called me "a dirty brother killer", it made sense then, even though he should've consulted me a lot sooner. However, when you learn so much on the genocide path, he's got nothing! It doesn't make sense that he feels bad he's brothers gone, or when he mentioned how the people will suffer before. It would in fact feed his depression far more just doing fuck all, because he has nowhere to go or a brother to look after.Adeptus Aspartem said:
Besides, I've had depression too, and Sans didn't have anything like I did. His confidence doesn't look like it suffered at all. It feels more implied he became jaded to me.
I missed the reports that tell you everyone has come back 100's of times, If you don't mind telling me.
It's not unfair if that's the only information they give you. It's more unfair to make assumptions as a defense when you have no evidence. The real life perspective is the only perspective we have to make sense of things. You can't just ignore decisions that don't feel human. This is how it falls apart.
Since they've killed humans before, they should've had many many options in how to handle an evil human. It would make far more sense to be prepared if something went wrong because it was definitely a possibility. If we both lived in this universe, we would wonder about the problems that may arise, that's how intelligence works. They were missing these thought processes, including why many others weren't annoyed at Asgore on why he wasn't using the souls already. These are giants chunks of illogical mishaps. It doesn't matter in the slightest if the game was indie or purposely lacking info, if it sticks out, it sticks out.
No matter how you look at it, they have the technology, but they can't defend themselves against one child? They didn't think maybe a psycho adult human may fall down the hole one day? It's pretty fucking stupid.
You seemed to have missed the part where SANS IS AWARE OF THE RELOADS! HE KNOWS IT'S GOING TO BE RESET ANYWAY SO WHY BOTHER!? THE ONLY REASON HE EVEN CALLS YOU OUT FOR KILLING PAPYRUS IS BECAUSE HIS LITTLE BROTHER IS THE ONLY THING HE CAN STILL GIVE A DARN ABOUT! THE ONLY TIME HE STEPS IN IS WHEN TIME IS AT RISK OF BEING COMPLETELY ERASED!Nazulu said:
Also,
No, it's a given that the monsters are spectacularly WEAK when compared to humans due to their physical makeup. There's a couple of books in Snowdin that explains this.Nazulu said:
Blue Book said:
Remember the Turtle who sells you stuff? He's a hero from the war that drove them underground by virtue of just surviving it! It was so one sided it wasn't even funny!Orange Book said:
Yes, they killed humans before. At no point did they give any indication that they WANTED to do it. That weakens monsters severely. What they're doing is pretty much entirely down to desperation.
And they may have the technology, but they don't really have the RESOURCES. Those puzzles are LITERALLY the most they can manage. There's no telling how long the core took to build just from gathering materials for it. For crying out loud, from what one of the citizens says about people moving in from the city they're starting to run out of ROOM!
I'm sorry if I came of as rude or overly aggressive, but a lot of the complaints you bring up are pretty much answered in game.
Yeah, this is still not an answer. I've clearly gone through this with Adeptus. It doesn't explain how he becomes so jaded that he doesn't do anything (not even for his brother), and how he deals with having nothing. Since he's not aware when time is reset exactly (his first responses to you clearly shows that), it would always be better to stop the menace before. If he was so jaded he didn't care, then he wouldn't care in general. He would not bother with anyone or anything.Metalix Knightmare said:
Your aggressive response said nothing we haven't talked about already. One child will not survive bombs and killer flying robots. I also can't believe you that they have limited resources when they have Internet, factory's, and a game show where Mettaton gets all these bombs and traps he pulls out of somewhere. And even if they had only those resources, it's still enough, easily. You wouldn't get through the gates and traps without help, and they could just bomb Frisk, because while she's stronger than the monsters, she doesn't magically become immune to bombs.
Lovely. You misrepresented my argument. I'm calling Toby Fox a hypocrite over the True Pacifist ending, not Genocide.Epyc Wyn said:
He's become so jaded because he's aware of the loops. He knows it's gonna be reset. It's all gonna be rendered meaningless. There is no reason for him to even bother because even if he does it'll just be reset. The only reason he bothers to step in is because he knows without a doubt that it's NOT going to be reset if he doesn't do something, and the world itself is going to be destroyed.Nazulu said:
I honestly don't know how this can be made simpler for you. Kill the kid? Reset. Save everyone? Reset. Save Papyrus? Reset. Somehow get Undine to go out with him? Reset! Kill Flowey? RESET! Kill everyone himself? RESET! RESET! RESET! It doesn't matter what he does, it doesn't mater how he goes about it, it doesn't even matter if he does nothing at all, it will all be reset and he can't do anything about it!
Thank you for showing me you haven't played the game because that's EXACTLY what you survive in this game. Frisk, even at level one, can survive fire, explosions, killer robots, spikes, magic spears, and all other kinds of nonsense. It's a freaking VIDEO GAME! Do you complain about Mario being able to shoot fireballs or the psychic powers in Earthbound? Yeah, in OUR world a kid's not gonna survive that crap, but OUR world doesn't have a society of monsters buried under a mountain.
That's kinda his attitude. It's why he only fights you on the Genocide route, because that's the ONE action he knows you can never take back. It's the one thing that can't be reset.Nazulu said:
Ugh. Do I have to read this?Metalix Knightmare said:
You repeated yourself in the first paragraph, answering nothing.
You completely missed the point of what I wrote in your second paragraph.
You just forgot everything I brought up altogether in your third paragraph.
I'm not repeating myself. Learn to read and talk properly.
I've been through this already with other people. People seem to just say this and forgot to mention all the times he clearly does care if he takes so many helpful and desperate actions. However, he gets annoyed and even defensive for his brother, and he clearly should've known it was going to happen, and yet he does nothing else in the genocide run except sit and wait for the worst to happen? Why does he even bother with anything at the beginning if he doesn't care? Why would he care if the timeline died if he felt nothing would ever be accomplished? It feels very selective, and since he doesn't appear to notice when the resets happen, how did he become like this over time?aegix drakan said:
It's been a while since I played the game (or watched a geno run), but from memory, the only time he really "Acts" in a neutral/pacifist run is when it relates to the main character (taking them out for lunch and dinner, telling them to hide behind the conveniently-shaped lamp, selling them food, etc), and I can extrapolate from his boss fight that he's doing this because he assumes you're the "anomaly" that's resetting everything and he wants to pacify you, thinking "Maybe the anomaly is unhappy and all they need is some good food and bad laughs and they'll be satisfied and stop resetting?". That and he DOES seem to genuinely care about that promise he made to Toriel (I'm going to assume he made that promise before he found out about the resets).Nazulu said:
And yeah, he would care if the whole timeline "died" (ie, completed a geno run) because prior to that, any harm that's done can be reset and is meaningless. But if the timeline dies completely, then it means everyone is dead forever. It's no longer "just another reset". It's "Everything is dead for good" as far as he knows. If his brother dies and the game resets, it upsets him, but hey, whatever, it's like it never happened and he'll have no memory of it happening. But if the universe ends...His brother is dead for good and can never be undone.
It's basically a matter of "permanence".
As for why he became like this over time, it's likely he's known about the resets for a while, and if you've had a few decades to really let that sink in, as well as irrefutable proof that it's happened...Eventually you might indeed come to the conclusion that "nothing matters. I can see the proof that I've done all of this hundreds of times already". Some people might just shrug and go "this time is real enough for me, and I am not aware of the resets, so why hold back?". Others might become nihilistic and start believing that nothing matters.
Like...If you found out that your present consciousness ends every time you go to sleep, and a new "you" lives on with your memories, how would you react? Some of us would just shrug and go "every day has felt real enough to me, this changes nothing", others would become hedonistic and frantically seek pleasure every second of every day and damn any future "yous" because they're not really "you" as you know yourself at this moment, and others might just stop caring at all. Different people act in different ways.
If none of that sways you, eh, I guess chalk it up to bad writing, I guess. It happens that some holes are more apparent to certain people.
I snipped the first part completly. See, we just have to disagree on that part. The only thing i get is that you question how he could become so jaded. Well, because the writer wrote the character like that, it's fine if someone doesn't think that's how it would work, but clearly Toby disagrees there. There's no further explanation, since it's fiction written by someone.
But less arguing, on to the question about the timelines. In the fight Sans says this: " our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... "
So he's talkin' about mutliples. Also we know from Flowey through all the diffrent playthroughs, that he tinkered with the timelines massively - probably even more so than the player. And also in a much longer timeframe.
The last part is can't be said 100% certain and is open to interpretation. The only time, where it seems plasubile for Sans to be part of that science team was when Gaster was still alive because of the timelines. Tori left after Chara died because Asgore became so enraged, she didn't know either Sans nor Alphys, who became the new scientist.
Also when you talk to the shopkeeper, she tells you that these skeletons just apperead out of nowhere years ago and asserted themselves on the village.
We don't know the exact timeframe since Chara's death and Frisks arrival, it could be a few months it could be decades. People thought the outfits (the gear) you can find from the other dead kids are not just "dress ups" but each belong to a certain time. And the game plays in 20xx but you can find cowboy outfits, so go figure if that theory is true.
But even if it's not we're talkin' quite some time.
Sure, since we can't confrim everything we could argue about that. But i just take what the game shows me. If it's not that way, then yes Sans wouldn't make that much sense, but since this is a possiblity i just go with Occams Razor.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
Either we talk about what's 100% canon or we talk about "if it would be RL and we would be there, what other options could we use".
In the end? Nothing. Frisk survives Asriel as a basically god throwing Kamehamehas in his face. Chara destroys worlds. The monsters have nothing to stop Frisk except makin' the player quit, be it through having a happy end or on the Genocide trying to make them give up.
Also Asgore not using the souls is not illogical. He doesnt want to use them, he refuses it, he doesn't even want to kill the children. I can completly feel with him, doing something you don't really want and just meandering in a middle ground between a rock and hard place and you're not happy with either decision.
And no, in RL it's not always the hero story where people pull through at the last second and "do the right thing" and the game shows that over and over again. Those characters fail, they fail really hard, they're trapped in a limbo of despair and it's up to Frisk or Chara to either bring them love or LOVE and end the underground once and for all.
I know i'm jumpin' points here, but:
They can't even beat a human child on a pacifist run who's at Lv 1.
During the war the monsters were nearly wiped out and humans did not suffer 1 casualty. Yes, a mere child with a toy knife can eradicate all monsters.
That's the premise. You can find that incredible stupid, but it's not like the game isn't makin' that premise very clear.
Anyway, i hope you're not takin' anything as agressive or anything, i'm just enjoying chatting about a great game and hearing some other prespectives on it - even if i don't agree with all of them.
But less arguing, on to the question about the timelines. In the fight Sans says this: " our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... "
So he's talkin' about mutliples. Also we know from Flowey through all the diffrent playthroughs, that he tinkered with the timelines massively - probably even more so than the player. And also in a much longer timeframe.
The last part is can't be said 100% certain and is open to interpretation. The only time, where it seems plasubile for Sans to be part of that science team was when Gaster was still alive because of the timelines. Tori left after Chara died because Asgore became so enraged, she didn't know either Sans nor Alphys, who became the new scientist.
Also when you talk to the shopkeeper, she tells you that these skeletons just apperead out of nowhere years ago and asserted themselves on the village.
We don't know the exact timeframe since Chara's death and Frisks arrival, it could be a few months it could be decades. People thought the outfits (the gear) you can find from the other dead kids are not just "dress ups" but each belong to a certain time. And the game plays in 20xx but you can find cowboy outfits, so go figure if that theory is true.
But even if it's not we're talkin' quite some time.
Sure, since we can't confrim everything we could argue about that. But i just take what the game shows me. If it's not that way, then yes Sans wouldn't make that much sense, but since this is a possiblity i just go with Occams Razor.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
What i meant with unfair is, that on one side you cite things like the Bridge apparently is definitly the only entrance - because that's what we saw. But on the other side you start talkin' about unbreakable doors, which we havent seen.Nazulu said:
Either we talk about what's 100% canon or we talk about "if it would be RL and we would be there, what other options could we use".
In the end? Nothing. Frisk survives Asriel as a basically god throwing Kamehamehas in his face. Chara destroys worlds. The monsters have nothing to stop Frisk except makin' the player quit, be it through having a happy end or on the Genocide trying to make them give up.
Also Asgore not using the souls is not illogical. He doesnt want to use them, he refuses it, he doesn't even want to kill the children. I can completly feel with him, doing something you don't really want and just meandering in a middle ground between a rock and hard place and you're not happy with either decision.
And no, in RL it's not always the hero story where people pull through at the last second and "do the right thing" and the game shows that over and over again. Those characters fail, they fail really hard, they're trapped in a limbo of despair and it's up to Frisk or Chara to either bring them love or LOVE and end the underground once and for all.
I know i'm jumpin' points here, but:
Nope they cant. Monsters are barely physical. They hate violence, their Atk/Def shows that. Only 6 people down there can somewhat fight, the 2 boss monsters and 2 wierd scientist gaster-related skeletons and Undyne and a friggin Robot.
They can't even beat a human child on a pacifist run who's at Lv 1.
During the war the monsters were nearly wiped out and humans did not suffer 1 casualty. Yes, a mere child with a toy knife can eradicate all monsters.
That's the premise. You can find that incredible stupid, but it's not like the game isn't makin' that premise very clear.
Anyway, i hope you're not takin' anything as agressive or anything, i'm just enjoying chatting about a great game and hearing some other prespectives on it - even if i don't agree with all of them.
Oh, now this topic feels heavy. lolaegix drakan said:
Those are good points in your first paragraph. I have to wonder why something as simple as a promise would prevent him from going all out and just getting it over and done with already. Then you have to wonder why he doesn't 'act' more on your genocide route (I don't mean fighting) to try and persuade you more when it is most important.
I still have issue taking your points in your second paragraph though. I mean, I'd still think he would want to avoid being upset. And then I think about if he couldn't even be bothered stopping that horror show of his brothers murder, including the brutality after (including he even felt that even if they got out of the underground that the reset would happen anyway), it just feels really selective in what does and doesn't care about. I'd imagine in real life we would either become desperate or not give a shit about any of it, but he kind of sits humbly in the middle. Also, how does he know we were going to reset the first time after we kill his bro? Does he know the game is linear? Did he read the script? lol
And for your third paragraph (I hope you don't mind me separating point like this), I knew this so I don't know why I asked, sorry
What I really wanted to ask is... I can't remember now. I need to make sure of something. What caused the previous resets and why couldn't he pick up on who did those? This is doing my head in now.
Ahh, so that's what the other discussion was about. Can you elaborate why he's a hypocrite though? Determination is a big driving point, but i never had the feeling that it's presented as the cure to everything.Cid Silverwing said:
I think the way it ends makes a very powerful statement: Even if you stay determined till the very end it doesn't mean you can just magically fix everything.
Somethings are either to late or out of your reach or whatever. You can either bring peace to Chara and the Underground but condeming Asriel to live alone or you can bring "peace" to Asriel and the Underground but create a godlike demon that will slaughter everything.
You're basically fucked whatever you do anyway. I see how people can dislike that in a story, but i liked it.
The whole Chara/Asriel part was acutally one of my favorite things, because even though Frisk himself has alot going on and has important decisions to make, there's already a story that happened and/or is happening outside of Frisks reach so to speak.
That whole shebang who started everything years and years ago is something that can't be fully fixed anymore.
In the end it's just "Don't kill and don't be killed" and hope for the best.