Poll: Why does nobody seem to have the balls to criticize Undertale and its genocide mode?

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Zenja

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Jan 16, 2013
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I have still yet to play this undertale game, but this right here is just a serious problem if true:

rewarding easy path and being 'unethical' the unfairly difficult and punishing path
Risk vs. Reward should always be at odds in any game. The easy path should be the unethical/punishing path. The Hard path should be the ethical/rewarding path. Or at least that is how I would do it, you could flip the ethical/unethical part. But Easy path should hold undesirable consequences and the hard path should hold reward for accomplishing the challenge. That is game making 101. I highly doubt this game is seriously going to "teach me a lesson" I havent had shoved down my throat 1,000 times before already.

shrekfan246 said:
It repeatedly asks you why you're doing it, when you have other options. It literally says that you're doing it because you can, and therefore you feel you have to.
However, if it is doing this... that's kind of a funny meta towards completionists. Especially, the more the game breaks the 4th wall. So I don't know. I still need to play this game apparently.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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Epyc Wyn said:
Honestly at some point if the game had just at some point been meta enough to point out "but hey, it's just a game, don't feel bad" or something along those lines I might've been more fine with it.
You're an adult, right? Why do you need the game to tell you what you already know, and in doing so, ruin the entire emotional ride of the game and take you out of the experience?

That's like if at the climax of Alien (the first one), Ripley just looked at the camera and went "BTW, don't be freaked out. It's just a movie!" Or if prior to stabbing herself, Juliet said "Fearest not theater attendees! For this is merely an act upon a stage! *stab*"

Either you know and accept that "Undertale is just a game" and you shouldn't feel bad because "This pack of 1s and 0s is trying to make me care about stuff that's not real and I see through that trick", or you DO care about the fictional characters and are doing it anyway in which case you ARE a total jerk for doing it.

As for it hiding content behind this, that's what makes the game "art". It forces you to ask yourself what you're willing to do to know everything. Will you just not go for that content/truth? Will you stain your own hands? Or will you chicken out and watch other people do it and understand the experience vicariously through them? And what you choose to do reflects on you and makes you learn something about yourself.

The fact we can all have such different reactions to it is great.

Like, one of my best friends did it because "I had to know! And I was willing to do something horrible to find out". Another said "I'm a gamer. If there's content, I wanna experience it, no matter how hard it is!" Another said "I'm curious. Besides, it's just a game". Someone on youtube said he tried to do the route, but sans guilt tripped him out of it, and when he saw what actually happened, he said "I am so glad Sans stopped me. I would have regretted it". And then there's me who went "I want to know what happens. But I am not willing to stain my hands. I actually care about these characters. So, if someone else has already done the route and uploaded it, why not use that to find out what I missed?" And even when the game called me out on it I shrugged and accepted that because I was comfortable with that.

I do agree that the difficulty is all over the place and weird, but that comes down to the fact that most monsters aren't fighters. The only two who ARE fighter are the ones who put up a struggle, one because she's just all around tough and heroic, and the other knows the truth about the world and is willing to cheat to prevent you from fucking the game up.
 

Epyc Wynn

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Mar 1, 2012
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Okay to everyone getting hung up on the title yes, the title IS pretentious and DOES give the vibe I am the lone hero giving criticism against a game nobody dares criticize. Genuinely sorry about that I just am quite bothered nobody ever at least points out this couple of issues. In the future I will withhold such titles and call it "Little ***** Hates On One Of Your Favorite Games."

As for some of the retorts to the nitpicks I'll just make a neat little concise list of reasons why I disagree with the arguments so far:

-difficulty is not subjective when a large majority of people cannot access a large portion of the game even when trying their best

-the story is not a good excuse for making the game unplayable for a large amount of people. if it's a good story, why are people being kept from personally experiencing said story. it would at least feel more justified if one of the two fights was not literally button mashing the arrow keys in the right order over and over but sadly that is how the game was designed

-i did not give a wrong wording PCMaster Pirate as I went on to explain in Nitpick #2 when I say 'punish' I am referring strictly to how the game treats the player and in no way am referencing difficulty like I did in Nitpick #1

-saying you never had to play part of the game is perhaps the best excuse one could ever conceive of to excuse any bad part of any game. i am going to review the WHOLE game and criticize ALL of it when discussing a game. it giving me the option to not play part of it does not mean that part of the game is thus not subject to any form of criticism, as that would be an unfair review completely ignoring part of the game people want to know about and should know about especially if there is a problem such as player treatment or game difficulty

-it is correct this is good story-telling as it does convey a realistic sense of what would happen if you started killing everyone. however my criticism is this is going so far with being personally cruel toward the player that this is also a bad thing. this is a grey area and like i said it is possible i am wrong in criticizing that. however, people were taking it personally including myself and even getting sickened by it and depressed, including myself. i can go look up some old forums for reference if anyone wants to challenge my notion because people really did have physical/psychological reactions beyond simply feeling sad or angry and i dont feel people should be rewarded with good content for playing games that hurt them on that level. as a first-time occurrence, you can mostly let it slide this time since this issue is a novelty interesting new concept but in the future i would not want everyone treating it like there aren't any flaws to making a mode like this where the player always feels bad and is coaxed by good game content into playing further to their personal detriment. some day I expect there will be Adults Only (Ao) games modeled on modes similar to Genocide Run's and I am left pondering if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

-the player should not feel a conflict of interests that forces them to not experience a large portion of the game containing the best content because they feel morally bad playing it. that is a game design improving the story-telling at the cost of gameplay and i dont believe good gameplay should be sacrificed for good story-telling.

-just because a game can make you feel awful does not mean it should and i would argue it is even unethical to cause players personal feelings of disgusted negativity causing them real-life awful feelings in name of the game's self-aware judgemental story-telling style.

-it's one thing to treat the player's character like a monster, but when the game starts talking to you the player personally and acting as if playing a game about killing is just as bad as literally killing real beings, it's overstepping its meta boundaries and i believe going too far.

-if you managed to have an only mildly difficult experience with undyne and a ridiculously hard one with sans, good for you for being a better game player than i am at undyne. i dont feel undyne was as fair a fight as sans though since again, one tests how fast you can mash specific buttons while the other tests various new ways of approaching the gameplay which at least is something you can learn (undyne not only felt impossible but the fight felt geared towards only people who are good at button-mashing). frankly i bet i could beat sans after a few hours since at least his moves and ordering can be learned while undyne is something you either can beat or you cannot and the couple hours i sank into her showed little improvement at all in how well i did against her.

-that point made by MHR about sociopaths not caring is an extremely interesting one and opens a perspective i had not considered. if you are a sociopath you can go ahead and completely ignore my nitpick about how the game treats the player. however, if this game was made so that the genocide mode was meant strictly for sociopaths, i feel it should have outright said so beforehand. really if you are a sociopath i imagine you would completely miss the point of that nitpick i made about player treatment since you need to actually have empathy and be affected by the emotional meaning behind certain strings of words. however, if that mode was truly meant for sociopaths, i am personally recommending the game get an R rating for that. if the graphics weren't pixelated id recommend an Ao rating.

-the difference between feeling scared and feeling emotionally hurt are vastly different and in no way should be treated as remotely the same. i can receive pleasure from a good scare but being hurt on a personal level is vastly different and does anything but give me a good feeling.

-a game should not be telling you you are a bad person for killing creatures that are not remotely real and are only as real as toby could pixelate their bodies and write their dialogue. i hope in the future games dont get on a high-horse and proceed to treat you like you the player are a horrible person for doing so.

- "You just made a bunch of friends and saved everyone. So now you're gonna go back and kill them all knowing this? Then you deserve to feel bad for it, cause you ARE a bit of a monster for doing so." This is one of the few things I read that I'm actually quoting because it bothered me so absolutely immensely i could not help but quote it. Nobody is a monster for pressing a button which says attack and causing an imaginary being composed of pixels and dialogue made by Toby to suddenly explode into a million pixels. The only monster would be someone who would actually judge you for wanting to play the whole game. Why would anyone be a monster for destroying pieces of art? They are still going to exist in other games by that same logic and if you are worried about the feelings of imaginary beings, they are still alive in your mind merrily watching you play if you want to step into the idealist route of thought that the feelings of imaginary beings matter #ImaginaryLivesMatter. Nothing personal of course to you the commentator, but such thinking would be very limiting in player freedom if I must ethically do everything on the right and narrow in games or risk being a bad person.

-just because i chose to play the whole genocide route does not justify unfair spikes in difficulty without proper beforehand buildup as any good game designer is normally expected to deliver so you can actually stand a change against the later challenges (i.e. undyne and sans ripping your dick off and playing hackysack with your soul).

-i do not believe a game should be making you feel bad in the process of trying to access all of its content. maybe have a sad or angry moving story or even include gorey horrible deaths but you should NEVER start outright speaking to the player as if they are a bad human being nonironically outside the game. on some level you could probably argue toby himself is calling you an asshole for playing the genocide route since he wrote all the dialogue for sans whom is depicted as this grand perfectly moral force (aside from the laziness).

-the player should not be expected to watch a let's play in order to enjoy all the content in an ethical manner. if you have to watch a video of the gameplay then you are not playing the game, which is the whole point of a game. if the only way to play it is to watch it, then the game itself is at fault.

-going haha it's just a game would've still been a better ending than chara to the genocide route and could have at least been mentioned in an ironic manner like "ha... ha... ... but it's just a game. get over it. ... at least to you it is." that in itself both would've provoked some more depth of thought and at least been better than the game taking itself seriously to the point where it treats itself like everyone is alive. again, great story-telling but it comes at the cost of making people personally feel like they're bad people for playing the game. but again, that's a new grey area of what's right and wrong in being creative with evil routes like genocide causing people to have to at least contemplate if this is okay or not to play and if games in the future should act like this towards players.

-the genocide route rewards you with its art-style, fantastic music, and extra character depth on top of new game mechanics introduced by Sans. it is completely rewarding but does that alongside acting like you as a person unironically outside of the game are bad which to me is going too far.

-the game doesn't need to approve of slaughtering characters and can fight you and characters can get mad and take it personally. but this goes so far that the game acts as if you the player are literally causing real deaths to real beings and you are a bad person. if the game is so self-aware then it should also be self-aware IT IS A GAME and not treat the player like they're an awful being. it's like the game is acting like it's aware of everything except that it is a game. like it's meta about everything else, but when it comes to being aware its a game, that's like the one fact that's never pointed out. it's almost like it wants to convince you it's an alternate reality but in doing so it treats all your actions like they're killing real beings when they aren't actually real.

-the game did good story-telling with genocide, and it does help the game gets its point across that killing is wrong. im not going to deny that that's inherently true about the game. my criticism lies in HOW that point was made and perhaps people should not so swiftly overlook how cruelly the game tries to make its point by making it so you can only enjoy all of the game by taking the good route and then the evil route of genocide. the game even says you're awful if you're watching a let's play of the content. the bottom line is the game is treating you like you're a monster when you're not and i find it underhanded and going too far and i hope other games don't start making it so you can only enjoy the best parts of the game when you do evil things.

-if you argue these are more glaring criticisms rather than simply nitpicks, you have a decent point and i see what you're saying. but, I'm calling them nitpicks because alongside ALL the other great stuff in the neutral and pacifist runs these otherwise massive criticisms add up to nitpicks in the grand scheme of the game's content.

-"Though I do believe the game pretending like you purposely wanted to be evil is sloppily done, but meh." Wouldn't say sloppy, just unjustified. Again, who the hell legitimately judges you to be a bad person for wanting to enjoy the whole game? That's one of the two main issues I had with Genocide and I feel more people should've been vocal about that issue instead of just grumbling about it quietly and praising the game as the perfect game all others should strive to be. So yeah I feel you on that one.

-the questions left unanswered by the story in genocide run eh... don't really bother me and i feel like I'm not missing out on much in not knowing. nothing particularly glaring in my view was left unanswered that needed to be answered in genocide mode (unlike the ending to Homestuck with the millions of unanswered questions for those of you who know what I'm talking about.)

-treating the imaginary deaths in the game like they're real is ridiculous and the game shouldn't have so forcefully treated them like they were really real beings really being killed and you the player in real life are now a murderer.

-making a player feel sad can be good. this game did not just make me feel sad though. it made me feel immensely disgusted with its treatment of the player and forcing you to only be able to choose seemingly bad things just to access all the game's content.

-just because the genocide run was intentionally designed to be way too hard and make you feel horrible does not mean it's any better of a game for having been intentionally designed that way. i get the point and why it was done, but i still disagree anyway.

-BX3 your points are sound and I don't disagree with what you've said.

-undyne is geared towards a type of speedy button-mashing i cannot no matter how many times i try get any further with and there should've been a better buildup and perhaps NOT have a boss built on those DDR mechanics which seemed CHEAP. sans looked ridiculously hard but i never thought his fight looked cheap like undyne's felt.

-"I will agree that the Morality of the genocide route kinda falls flat since it adds to the lore rather than being just a "kill everything" storyline, it's like a book that insults you for reading it's second half." That's precisely how I feel on the matter. But the thing is, Undertale did just that. And though I would be pissed off at a book for being so personally rude toward me just as I am at Undertale, that would still be an interesting book to read.

-it is not fair to treat the player as if they are a monster for trying to access the rest of the game's content by means of destroying pieces of pixel art on a screen that have dialogue below them. i get WHY the game does that since it helps convey the point that "if you murder you're gonna have a bad tem." i just don't believe it's a good enough reason to be a jerk to the player for playing your game.

-Shitty overused DETERMINATION reference.

EDIT: Apologies to the people who had the DETERMINATION to read this massive wall of text but it was the only way to counter every argument as thoroughly as possible. :D
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Zenja said:
Risk vs. Reward should always be at odds in any game. The easy path should be the unethical/punishing path. The Hard path should be the ethical/rewarding path. Or at least that is how I would do it, you could flip the ethical/unethical part. But Easy path should hold undesirable consequences and the hard path should hold reward for accomplishing the challenge. That is game making 101. I highly doubt this game is seriously going to "teach me a lesson" I havent had shoved down my throat 1,000 times before already.
The "ethical" path has easier boss encounters because, well, the characters don't consider you to be quite as much of a threat when they're actually face-to-face with you. It still has challenging encounters, and the boss fights are all still unique twists on the basic mechanics the game sets from the outset, it's just a more dramatic spike in difficulty when you've actually been doing the typical RPG thing of killing things to level up. In this way, the game ties its mechanics in very tightly with the narrative. Certain fights are more challenging when you're actively fighting because the character you're fighting actually has a reason to fight for their life. When they die, they're dead. They are removed from persistence in the game world, and the other characters account for that.

It repeatedly asks you why you're doing it, when you have other options. It literally says that you're doing it because you can, and therefore you feel you have to.
However, if it is doing this... that's kind of a funny meta towards completionists. Especially, the more the game breaks the 4th wall. So I don't know. I still need to play this game apparently.
Re: 4th-wall-breaking: Two characters know that their world is basically Groundhog Day, a third is at least slightly aware of it, and many others will express feelings of deja vu as events are repeated. They're not actively treating it like it's a game, though (which appears to be OP's problem); they're just aware that their in-universe lives are being reset every time you reload a save or restart the game.

Re: Meta commentary: It mostly comes from the fact that the game didn't need to include the option of killing things. It would not have technically lost anything by simply saying that you're incapable of killing things, so your methods of ending battle are either through running or showing kindness. However, it did also include killing, possibly because most people simply expect games to have direct combat as "gameplay". It decided to toy with that; how would the world change around you if you were going around slaughtering everything you came into contact with? How would the actual beings living in said world react? What if a few of them knew that there was a little more going on than just suddenly one day a mass murderer appeared in their world? What if they were aware that this had potentially happened before, and had the possibility of happening again?

The actual plot revelations given by the Genocide route aren't necessary to understanding the game. They build to the overall lore a bit, and do sort of help to explain one character's actions, but none of it is really required to "get" the neutral or pacifist routes.
 

Saetha

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Nazulu said:
Why the hell didn't anyone keep the Hotland puzzles activated? I'm sure Frisk couldn't get through alllll those lasers and doors without help. Also, Mettaton can fly, and he also received upgrades from Alphy's, and Alphy's seems like she could build anything..................... USE A NUKE!!!

I had more but I can't remember them right now.
I mean, the monsters do have to keep living in the underground afterwards. Radiation would probably be bad. And I'm not so sure Alphys actually invented a lot of the technology monsters use. It's implied that monsters are woefully far behind humans technologically, and that tech in the Underground isn't invented so much as reverse engineered by whatever human tech happens to fall down. And we're generally pretty good about not letting nuclear bombs casually fall into giant mountains. Alphys might not know enough to truly invent something new, just copy and improve on what tech monsters already have.

As for the traps being inactive - people needed to evacuate. And once they did, there was no reason to try and keep Chara there. It'd be more beneficial to open the way for Chara actually, to encourage them to leave and let everyone get back to their lives. Spitefully trying to keep Chara there wouldn't do any good.
 

Luminous_Umbra

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Nazulu said:
Why the hell didn't anyone keep the Hotland puzzles activated? I'm sure Frisk couldn't get through alllll those lasers and doors without help. Also, Mettaton can fly, and he also received upgrades from Alphy's, and Alphy's seems like she could build anything..................... USE A NUKE!!!
Saetha said:
As for the traps being inactive - people needed to evacuate. And once they did, there was no reason to try and keep Chara there. It'd be more beneficial to open the way for Chara actually, to encourage them to leave and let everyone get back to their lives. Spitefully trying to keep Chara there wouldn't do any good.
Actually, if you check some of the earlier puzzles, you'll find vines deactivating them.

Basically, once Flowey learns about what you're doing, he goes on ahead and deactivates any puzzles that get in your way.

And to answer the laundry list of complaints:

Epyc Wyn said:
Good lord, that is a lot.

Let me ask you this: Why are you so adamant that the game must stay within its bounds? Why must the game not look at you, the player?

Within the scope of the world of Undertale, those who go on the genocide route are evil, make no mistake. In our world, of course, that's ridiculous. Why should we care about bunches of pixels and code?

But...that's exactly the point.

The game treats itself like another reality, one which we puppeteer the player character around in.

I'm sure I can't convince you to like it, but I personally feel that this is an absolutely brilliantly executed use of "meta" knowledge by a game. Not perfect, but incredibly well done. We disconnect ourselves from our player character when it's convenient and the game was made with this knowledge. It was made knowing that not everyone can be made to feel bad for their choices unless they are addressed directly.
 

MHR

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Let me just say to you

If the game didn't do all these terrible things you're describing and twist you around in a way nothing else ever had or ever should, It wouldn't be this popular.

There you go. Not everything that's popular has to appeal to everyone, but the very same reasons you criticize it are the same reasons everyone else is praising it.

And my description of the sociopathic point of view was to say that that is also a bad criticism. The mode is not at all intended for sociopaths because they wouldn't learn shit. It's intended for people that can feel bad, not some sociopath. Because you are feeling bad, means it's working as intended.

You mention there needs to be some buildup to a difficult situation like every other game. But you were warned. Literally warned, multiple times. Sometimes a warning is a warning, not just spooky story-telling tool. "If you keep on this path, you're going to have a bad time." What else is that supposed to mean? The game just had the balls to keep its word. This warning is used as a challenge to you, in the same way other games use a properly increasing curve of difficulty as a challenge. If there's a trap ahead in a game you couldn't detect, but there were many warning signs referencing a trap or some other clues like Dark Souls bloodstains everywhere, you could argue it's a dumb part of the game that put a mimic there that ate you whole when you were just trying to get the next bit of treasure you wanted, but that's a poor response. One could argue such things are a poor way to make a game, But such traps are there as novelties, and Undertale is a novel little game.

Feeling morally bad is an experience like feeling sad or scared. Lots of stories made you feel bad for liking the wrong character, lots make you sad or angry for good characters you love dying and never coming back (Game of Thrones infamously, and people were demanding writers be fired,) and lots of movies are scary. Saying scary movies shouldn't exist is childish. But it's the same for this. It's easy to see the first example of something new and different and automatically put up boundaries for it just because it hasn't conformed to any established rules yet on the grounds that "you don't like it." But that doesn't make it a valid criticism. It didn't hurt you, rob you, or cheat you of anything you didn't cause yourself.
 

Lightspeaker

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Dec 31, 2011
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BX3 said:
Sans pretty much sums it up while you're trying to murder him: "you're not doing this because you're evil. You're doing this because you can, and because you can, you feel you have to" (paraphrased).
Never played Undertale (might do eventually, I'm one of those that was fatigued with the entire thing about three days after it came out because EVERYONE EVERYWHERE wouldn't shut up about it; which is a shame because it looks like the sort of thing I like) but this quote really reminds me of Spec Ops The Line.

The game repeatedly, and with increasing blatancy, calls you out on your behaviour; telling you that you don't have to continue. But people did...because they could and because they had the game so they were going to finish it. Nobody held a gun to anyone's head and made them finish Spec Ops. Just like nobody held a gun to anyone's head and made them play Genocide in Undertale.

But people did anyway, to complete the game, rather than walking away from it. And then people felt bad for it but it was always in their control whether they continued.

I think these games that pretty much actively don't want to be played and tell you you're a bad person for playing them make for an interestingly reflective experience. I can see why people get angry or upset about it; but I honestly don't think I've seen a counter-argument against them that really works. They do what they're supposed to, that's the entire point.
 

Elvis Starburst

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Epyc Wyn said:
-the story is not a good excuse for making the game unplayable for a large amount of people. if it's a good story, why are people being kept from personally experiencing said story. it would at least feel more justified if one of the two fights was not literally button mashing the arrow keys in the right order over and over but sadly that is how the game was designed
Gonna start with this one. If you pay close attention to the way the arrows are directed, and know the gold ones will be the opposite direction they say, then you won't be "literally button mashing." It takes fast reflexes and good hand eye coordination. Sans has very little of that sort of thing as well. Sorry, but it's not poorly designed just because you can't beat it. That's not how video games work.

i am going to review the WHOLE game and criticize ALL of it when discussing a game. it giving me the option to not play part of it does not mean that part of the game is thus not subject to any form of criticism, as that would be an unfair review completely ignoring part of the game people want to know about and should know about especially if there is a problem such as player treatment or game difficulty
Fair point on the wanting to criticize the whole game part.

-it is correct this is good story-telling as it does convey a realistic sense of what would happen if you started killing everyone. however my criticism is this is going so far with being personally cruel toward the player that this is also a bad thing. this is a grey area and like i said it is possible i am wrong in criticizing that. Snip snip snip the rest
As many including me have said, that's the general idea. You're murdering hundreds of innocent creatures that wanted nothing to do with you. which flows into my next point...

the player should not feel a conflict of interests that forces them to not experience a large portion of the game containing the best content because they feel morally bad playing it. that is a game design improving the story-telling at the cost of gameplay and i dont believe good gameplay should be sacrificed for good story-telling.

-just because a game can make you feel awful does not mean it should and i would argue it is even unethical to cause players personal feelings of disgusted negativity causing them real-life awful feelings in name of the game's self-aware judgemental story-telling style.

-it's one thing to treat the player's character like a monster, but when the game starts talking to you the player personally and acting as if playing a game about killing is just as bad as literally killing real beings, it's overstepping its meta boundaries and i believe going too far.
Why shouldn't it make you feel bad for that? The game is telling you you're bad for killing innocent people by the hundreds and are either doing it right out of the gate with the intent to do so, or after you made friends with everyone else. I don't think Undertale's Genocide run was designed with the idea everyone was gonna be ok with it. The completionists out there might feel bad for it, but it's not gonna tell you everything is ok and murder is fine in a video game just for those people, or the overly sensitive. That would go against the entire game's purpose.

If you went into the real world and started killing innocents, you better be ready to face the consequences of your actions, and if you're not insane you'd feel bad for it I'm sure. And this game, one of the few that does this, treats it with the same level. You're choosing to kill many innocents for the sake of your completion or ending. Why does it being a video game suddenly make that different? Cause it's not real people?
Bullshit. The game treats its people AS PEOPLE, not just numbers that make up a character, and it expects you to treat them the same.

i dont feel undyne was as fair a fight as sans though since again, one tests how fast you can mash specific buttons while the other tests various new ways of approaching the gameplay which at least is something you can learn (undyne not only felt impossible but the fight felt geared towards only people who are good at button-mashing). frankly i bet i could beat sans after a few hours since at least his moves and ordering can be learned while undyne is something you either can beat or you cannot and the couple hours i sank into her showed little improvement at all in how well i did against her.
Sorry, but this is simply a matter of people noticing Undyne's attack patterns with her arrows a lot easier than you. As I mentioned above, her patterns require quick reflexes and strong hand eye coordination. And as I mentioned in my previous post, Undyne is your wake up call to the path you're taking. They're fighting for their lives, and won't show you mercy. If you wanted any mercy, you shouldn't have taken this path in the first place. That's. The. Point.

however, if this game was made so that the genocide mode was meant strictly for sociopaths, i feel it should have outright said so beforehand
That would go against the entire game's narrative. It doesn't tell you these things right away because it expects you to understand your own actions without telling you directly. That follows through with everything in the rest of the game, so they aren't gonna treat this different.

i can receive pleasure from a good scare but being hurt on a personal level is vastly different and does anything but give me a good feeling.
a game should not be telling you you are a bad person for killing creatures that are not remotely real and are only as real as toby could pixelate their bodies and write their dialogue.
As said before, the game treats its characters as real people, so it hopes you'll do the same.

- "You just made a bunch of friends and saved everyone. So now you're gonna go back and kill them all knowing this? Then you deserve to feel bad for it, cause you ARE a bit of a monster for doing so." This is one of the few things I read that I'm actually quoting because it bothered me so absolutely immensely i could not help but quote it. Nobody is a monster for pressing a button which says attack and causing an imaginary being composed of pixels and dialogue made by Toby to suddenly explode into a million pixels. The only monster would be someone who would actually judge you for wanting to play the whole game.
This will be fun, that being my quote. While you aren't REALLY a horrible monster for making this choice (Killing a video game character doesn't make you one), I used a bit of hyperbole in saying what I said. You killed innocent creatures and people, the game called you out on it and said you're an ass for killing its people. And you really come back and say "I don't like the game doing that!" to everyone else? Sorry, but the game was written this way because you are killing its people. It wants you to feel bad because you're doing something bad to its people. And Undertale has the balls to call you out for it. You might not be a bad person, but you're doing bad person things to its characters, that being cold-hearted murder.

[I cut out the next 2 points cause you're just repeating yourself here]

-the player should not be expected to watch a let's play in order to enjoy all the content in an ethical manner. if you have to watch a video of the gameplay then you are not playing the game, which is the whole point of a game. if the only way to play it is to watch it, then the game itself is at fault.
Rather fair in its own right. I don't think Toby wanted everyone to play the Genocide route though. It wanted to make you feel good and want to keep your friends. I wanna play the Genocide path myself, but I can't do it cause I love its characters. I can't bring myself to kill them. And that's what Toby wants. It spits in the face of people who complete games cause they feel they have to. Toby wanted you to not want to do it. And as I said before... If Genocide was your first choice, your first instinct being to kill, Toby wanted you to feel it. You didn't give the world a chance. Why should he give you one back?

-going haha it's just a game would've still been a better ending than chara to the genocide route and could have at least been mentioned in an ironic manner like "ha... ha... ... but it's just a game. get over it. ... at least to you it is."
I don't have much to say here besides "I don't think it would have fit the narrative to do so."

-the genocide route rewards you with its art-style, fantastic music, and extra character depth on top of new game mechanics introduced by Sans. it is completely rewarding but does that alongside acting like you as a person unironically outside of the game are bad which to me is going too far.
This is a rather interesting thing. Something I don't have the answer for. Fair point.

[Snipped the next point again cause it's, once again, repetition. Could have looked back and edited this down a bit before making another emotionally charged post. We know, you're upset]

the game even says you're awful if you're watching a let's play of the content. the bottom line is the game is treating you like you're a monster when you're not and i find it underhanded and going too far and i hope other games don't start making it so you can only enjoy the best parts of the game when you do evil things.
So if you're not evil enough to kill yourself, you'll stand by and watch someone else do it for you?
That was a the point made several times. You chose not to kill. But you're ok with standing by, watching someone else do it for you, so you can feel clean about not doing it yourself... Yet you just watched everyone else die before your eyes.
I feel this one idea was added cause Toby knew people would make LPs of the game, and this path as well. So, he brings up a good question. Are you clean just cause you didn't dirty your own hands and watched someone else do it?

-"Though I do believe the game pretending like you purposely wanted to be evil is sloppily done, but meh." Wouldn't say sloppy, just unjustified. Again, who the hell legitimately judges you to be a bad person for wanting to enjoy the whole game?
You might be taking the game a bit too seriously, but I can't properly say that cause I know the game is really hammering the point home.

[Removed the next points because of more repeated Undyne complaints, and the answers to these pieces can be found in my response above]

-"I will agree that the Morality of the genocide route kinda falls flat since it adds to the lore rather than being just a "kill everything" storyline, it's like a book that insults you for reading it's second half." That's precisely how I feel on the matter. But the thing is, Undertale did just that. And though I would be pissed off at a book for being so personally rude toward me just as I am at Undertale, that would still be an interesting book to read.
Fair point. I do ask though... Was the second half of the book/game right for you then? Granted, that could be seen as a bad thing, since it's "locked content" that way. In that case, refer to what I've said earlier in this post, I touched on this before.

[More snipping cause you keep repeating the same 3 things with different wording. This post could've been half the size and have spoken broadly to everyone else, not piece by piece]

EDIT: Apologies to the people who had the DETERMINATION to read this massive wall of text but it was the only way to counter every argument as thoroughly as possible. :D
Oh, no, this was fun. The question I ask there though is... Did you make this mega post with the intent to counter argument everyone, or did you listen to what they said and understood what they were trying to say?

EDIT: Considering I looked back and saw " In the future I will withhold such titles and call it "Little ***** Hates On One Of Your Favorite Games." " I think it's the former. This tells me you aren't interested in what everyone is trying to say, and you're firmly convinced Undertale is the bad guy here cause it made you feel bad, and are now steadfast in convincing everyone else that they're wrong and you're right. Am I wrong?

Anyways, this was fun. I used a bit of hyperbole in my first post, and maybe a bit in this one, so please be aware of that. Feel free to pick my post apart and I'll do the same in kind and see where that gets us. Or you could just snip all of it down, quote my name alone, and give me your thoughts. But I will re-emphasize something before I close this off...

The game's decisions I don't feel were bad. The game did exactly what it intended to. It wanted you to experience its world and feel content with the ending you got. It didn't want you to experience the rest at that point. It wanted you to leave the game alone, just like what Flowey says after you clear the Pacifist path and boot the game up again. They wanted to live in peace. If you turned to Genocide after all you went through, that's your own fault. And the game 100% is in the right to call you a bit of a dick for that. I don't think you liked that it would do that in the way it does, and to the extent it does. But I think the "too bad" phrase comes into play. You made everyone happy and stole it away for your want of "completion." Again, I think the game wanted you to not take that path. Flowey asked you not to.

And as for choosing Genocide first... I'll repeat my own point once again for the 3-7th time. You intended to kill first thing, without experiencing the world and its characters. Yeah, sorry, but that's a bit of a dick move in a way. The game treats its characters as people, and the hope is that you would do the same. You made a few fair points here, and I concede to a few of them. But 'll stick by the idea that I don't think Genocide was meant for you. It's not meant for everyone, and I have no doubt Toby expected that. He didn't expect it to be met with universal praise. And that's fine
 
Jan 27, 2011
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Elvis Starburst said:
So if you're not evil enough to kill yourself, you'll stand by and watch someone else do it for you?
That was a the point made several times. You chose not to kill. But you're ok with standing by, watching someone else do it for you, so you can feel clean about not doing it yourself... Yet you just watched everyone else die before your eyes.
I feel this one idea was added cause Toby knew people would make LPs of the game, and this path as well. So, he brings up a good question. Are you clean just cause you didn't dirty your own hands and watched someone else do it?
(not the person you quoted, just saw this point and wanted to comment)
Just wanna say that I like that the game did that. I didn't play the Genocide route, as I didn't want to stain my hands after the Pacifist run.

Getting called out for watching it made me pause the video and reflect on that, which was kinda neat.

In my case, I grimaced and accepted the point in a small way. Yes, choosing to just watch someone else do it WAS cowardly, and also doesn't absolve me ENTIRELY of virtual monster-based guilt.

However, considering I didn't ASK someone to do that route, nor did I come along in real time when someone said "hey, I'm gonna do the genocide route, come watch", and the video was already done by someone and uploaded, I do not feel all that guilty. That LPer had already done the route and left it the video up after the fact, which I think makes it a lot less morally dubious.

In any case, I LOVE that a video game can stir up moral dilemma discussions like this. It's really amazing and I hope to see more of it.

Speaking of which.
Lightspeaker said:
this quote really reminds me of Spec Ops The Line.
GOD I loved that game. The way it punches you in the gut for your actions and chastises the "hero fantasy" when compared to the hell of war was INCREDIBLE. It actually made me sit down and really reflect on myself, upon which I came to the conclusion that good intentions mean literally jack and shit. It's actions that matter. All the good intentions in the world do not amount to anything if they lead you to commit atrocities.

That said, I think Undertale does a better job of it. The problem with Spec Ops is that it kind of railroads you into certain choices, so ultimately, the only moral thing to do is to stop playing at a certain point. Undertale, however leave you free to make those choices or not. So yes, many players will not see the Genocide content and get that punch to the gut, but it's all the more powerful because no one made you do it. You have to not only choose to do it, but COMMIT. Over and over and over. You have so many times you can turn back or fuck up the run, and you have to ignore all of them and keep committing in order to complete the run, which really does make you worthy of being shamed by the inhabitants of the game.
 

Elvis Starburst

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Luminous_Umbra said:
Within the scope of the world of Undertale, those who go on the genocide route are evil, make no mistake. In our world, of course, that's ridiculous. Why should we care about bunches of pixels and code?

But...that's exactly the point.

The game treats itself like another reality, one which we puppeteer the player character around in.

We disconnect ourselves from our player character when it's convenient and the game was made with this knowledge. It was made knowing that not everyone can be made to feel bad for their choices unless they are addressed directly.
MHR said:
You mention there needs to be some buildup to a difficult situation like every other game. But you were warned. Literally warned, multiple times. Sometimes a warning is a warning, not just spooky story-telling tool. "If you keep on this path, you're going to have a bad time." What else is that supposed to mean? The game just had the balls to keep its word. This warning is used as a challenge to you, in the same way other games use a properly increasing curve of difficulty as a challenge.
I'd add this to my post own mega post and add my thoughts to it if edits would be added to the message, but they don't sadly. So, I'll do it here.

This is exactly what everyone has been trying to say, including myself. Special props on MHR's point. The game had all of the warnings signs there. It gave the player every bit of what they needed to decide if they wanted to continue or not. But they did. And that's on them. Just like how you did, Epyc Wyn. You chose to do this. And the game shows you the consequences and calls you out on it. At that point, I don't think it should have to hold back and not be "too mean" to you to keep your feelings intact. Books, movies, and TV all create emotion within us. And this game happened to want to make you feel bad for what you did. Cause it doesn't matter how you look at it. You and anyone else who killed all of those game characters did something horrible to them. It doesn't matter if they're real or not.

It's easy to see the first example of something new and different and automatically put up boundaries for it just because it hasn't conformed to any established rules yet on the grounds that "you don't like it." But that doesn't make it a valid criticism. It didn't hurt you, rob you, or cheat you of anything you didn't cause yourself.
I can already see that last part being taken as "It did hurt me, it made me feel bad." Yes, well, you were kinda asking for it? Sorry to be so blunt, but, again... Consequences of your actions and all that
 

Epyc Wynn

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In response to the mega post responding to my mega post I'll try to first clear up my motives I'm not particularly emotional about the issue though I certainly care about gaming critique and I suppose in THAT regard I'm emotional; just nothing angry or bothered beyond reviewers outright treating these issues I mentioned like they're nonexistent and nobody should have a problem with them when I argue people SHOULD have a problem with them. In advance apologies for my repetitiveness; in the end you can blame my laziness of not bothering to go back and check if I was saying the same thing over and over. My mega post was a compilation of previous comments in the thread because rather than fall over and weakly go "meh whatever that's their view" I wanted to at least show I'm willing to carefully argue my point rather than act like me having an opinion suddenly makes that opinion okay to have. I also want to say I immensely appreciate the fact you, Elvis Starbust, were willing to argue as elaborately as I was the point. And I believe what it comes down to between us is something not arguable as a black and white correct or incorrect way of designing a game, but a preference. Your arguments I don't find wrong, and believe they have much validity to them. I'm going to boil your arguments and my own down to this question:

Is it good to make the player feel on a personal, ethical level like they are a bad person and disgust them with this large amount of negativity they feel in the process, in the name of good video game story-telling?

I'm aware there's also the argument I made with the Genocide Mode's unfair difficulty and I'm pretty stalwart they should've made the difficulty more fair or at the very least had some buildup in difficulty beforehand that led up to Undyne's ridiculous controls so at least it would feel fairer. But that I believe takes a backseat to this more important question I mentioned since it has a bit more implications. I may in the future make a thread about this very question because it does have strong implications for the future of how games are designed and brings up questions of how far a game should go with its story-telling.

In horror games it's just a case of a dark story, lots of scares, some gross stuff, an eerie feeling of helplessness, etc. With what Undertale did, they added a whole new previously unexplored shade to what I'd consider the horror genre: making you the player feel like you're responsible for these awful things happening in the game. Guilt-tripping, in other words, is what Genocide Mode's emotional impact is built upon. Is this a new interesting mechanic: absolutely. But should it be done in more games? For me, no. It's like writing an indirect hate letter to any anonymous person who reads it saying that they're an asshole for reading the letter, and then going on to carefully and elaborately convince you just how much of an asshole you are for continuing to read that letter. The more you read that letter, the more the letter builds up its guilt-trippy argument that you're a bad person for reading it. That's how I feel about Undertale's Genocide Mode and I hope game designers are at the very least AWARE this is interpretable as an unethical way to do things. At the same time, people deserve to have creative freedom, so that's why this is what I'd call a grey area of gaming philosophy where there is an ethical issue in doing it but at the same time there's an ethical issue in acting like people who do it are doing something wrong.

We are at what I'd call an impasse because you can interpret this both ways, argue both sides, and still it feels as if neither side is technically right or wrong as both have strong merit in my view. Does this forum have any thoughts on the matter?
 

shrekfan246

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Lightspeaker said:
BX3 said:
Sans pretty much sums it up while you're trying to murder him: "you're not doing this because you're evil. You're doing this because you can, and because you can, you feel you have to" (paraphrased).
Never played Undertale (might do eventually, I'm one of those that was fatigued with the entire thing about three days after it came out because EVERYONE EVERYWHERE wouldn't shut up about it; which is a shame because it looks like the sort of thing I like) but this quote really reminds me of Spec Ops The Line.

The game repeatedly, and with increasing blatancy, calls you out on your behaviour; telling you that you don't have to continue. But people did...because they could and because they had the game so they were going to finish it. Nobody held a gun to anyone's head and made them finish Spec Ops. Just like nobody held a gun to anyone's head and made them play Genocide in Undertale.

But people did anyway, to complete the game, rather than walking away from it. And then people felt bad for it but it was always in their control whether they continued.

I think these games that pretty much actively don't want to be played and tell you you're a bad person for playing them make for an interestingly reflective experience. I can see why people get angry or upset about it; but I honestly don't think I've seen a counter-argument against them that really works. They do what they're supposed to, that's the entire point.
You're right insofar as the Genocide path is concerned. A primary difference is that Undertale does offer the player the opportunity to abandon the path of bloody violence without quitting the game, but in order to complete the Genocide path, yeah, you've gotta deal with the game treating its world with a heavier weight than most games do.
 

SmallHatLogan

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Epyc Wyn said:
-it's one thing to treat the player's character like a monster, but when the game starts talking to you the player personally and acting as if playing a game about killing is just as bad as literally killing real beings, it's overstepping its meta boundaries and i believe going too far.
Again you're missing the point. You are the puppeteer. Frisk (the player character) has no agency, she/he is just a vessel for you act through. Frisk isn't the one killing, you are.

Epyc Wyn said:
-just because i chose to play the whole genocide route does not justify unfair spikes in difficulty without proper beforehand buildup as any good game designer is normally expected to deliver so you can actually stand a change against the later challenges (i.e. undyne and sans ripping your dick off and playing hackysack with your soul).
It's true that within a genocide run Undyne and Sans are the only challenges, but it is expected that you would've played the game at least once before doing a genocide run. The Undyne and Sans fights don't exist in isolation. In terms of difficulty progression they come after fighting Asgore, Flowey, and Asriel in the neutral/pacifist runs.
 

SlumlordThanatos

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Pirate Of PC Master race said:
Epyc Wyn said:
Nitpick #2: The game punishes you for playing half its best content (Genocide Run).
WRONG WORDING. You mean it's making you feed bad.
That is absolutely the correct wording.

Remember that when you complete a Genocide run, it permanently taints your save file, so that you get the Genocide ending no matter what you do. That is pretty much the definition of punishing the player for their actions.

There really isn't any other way around it. The game flat punishes the player for their actions, all in the name of giving a meta commentary.
But you know, you never had to. Didn't you listen to your best friend? If you never cared for those people, you wouldn't have to feel bad now. Alternatively, You could have visited wiki, watch LP's or just don't play the mode. The entire point this entire cause of "you feeling bad" is caused by you. I really don't know what to say to person who cut himself deliberately and says "OH GOD IT HURTS". Don't do it, I guess?
It's worth mentioning that the game rips on people who watch a Let's Play instead of actually playing through the mode. It seems that you can't win no matter what you do; you're either a monster for killing your friends, or you're a shitty person because you want to see what happens, but can't bring yourself to do it on your own.

Which brings me to a point. The game has brought a player to a point where you can either pursue a story, or don't. The player has good approximation what either choice will bring. And this choice in the game is one of what I would consider "Artistic integrity", which I would consider as an integral part of good story-based game.
Honestly, I find myself sharing Tycho's opinion on the subject.

https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2015/12/30/early-onset-coot-disease

I've always felt like Undertale attacks the very thing that makes video games such a compelling medium: player agency. In most games, you have enough agency to experience the story in any way that you want. Undertale calls you a shitty person for doing so. I'm sure there was a way to comment on how people play their games without being so bad-natured about it, and it probably would've been a more powerful statement.

I think that Toby Fox secretly hates video games, made Undertale to make a point, and had it backfire horribly.
 

Elvis Starburst

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Epyc Wyn said:
I'm aware there's also the argument I made with the Genocide Mode's unfair difficulty and I'm pretty stalwart they should've made the difficulty more fair or at the very least had some buildup in difficulty beforehand that led up to Undyne's ridiculous controls so at least it would feel fairer
It is a brick wall, I think I admitted that before. The game gave fair warning for it beforehand, so it's hard to say anyone who pressed forward didn't have it coming. But I know what you mean, the jump is quite high.

It's like writing an indirect hate letter to any anonymous person who reads it saying that they're an asshole for reading the letter, and then going on to carefully and elaborately convince you just how much of an asshole you are for continuing to read that letter. The more you read that letter, the more the letter builds up its guilt-trippy argument that you're a bad person for reading it. That's how I feel about Undertale's Genocide Mode and I hope game designers are at the very least AWARE this is interpretable as an unethical way to do things.
Again, I see what you mean. I don't think it's a matter of ethics though. Just like how movies and any other form of media don't have to argue ethics for making people feel this way, I don't think it's fair video games should have to either. Wouldn't you agree? Being interpreted as such is a different matter, but I highly doubt the point of the run was meant to be "unethical" to anyone. That is what the interpretation part is about. Everyone experiences things differently, of course

Is it good to make the player feel on a personal, ethical level like they are a bad person and disgust them with this large amount of negativity they feel in the process, in the name of good video game story-telling?
Now see, I have a feeling if you cut away the emotional response of the original post, maybe got some of the info others told you, and posted this at the end, the discussion would've gone an entirely different direction. I like this question a lot, and I wish it was there to begin with, alongside your more calm and well put together response I just snipped. Cause this is quite a good question indeed.

To answer the big bold question... Yes, I think so. As I said, video games shouldn't have to justify an issue of "ethics" when every other form of media might not (I am aware there are cases of this existing, I'm broad stroking on purpose). Because as someone else said before... Even if you're not an adult, one should be able to make the distinction that this is a video game. It creates these emotions, and it's using them to make a point. But you aren't truly a monster like the game says you are (Unless you really, truly are one, Undertale sure doesn't know that), then you shouldn't be taking it super personally. The game emphasizes its point very strongly. But I don't think it's supposed to be a personal attack.

This was fun, thanks for the thread, man. I hope my responses proved useful
 

Elvis Starburst

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SlumlordThanatos said:
There really isn't any other way around it. The game flat punishes the player for their actions, all in the name of giving a meta commentary.
It's actually quite possible, even on the Steam version like I had, to erase the save file and start again and it won't remember the choices you made. I panicked and killed Toriel at the start and couldn't live with my choice. This was my first playthrough, I didn't understand the game very well just yet. So I found a way to fix it. Shitty of me, I know.

But the game still punishes you, that much I understand. And for someone who somehow can't web search a way to fix the save, they're stuck with it. Which is kinda meh
 

Lightspeaker

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aegix drakan said:
That said, I think Undertale does a better job of it.
shrekfan246 said:
You're right insofar as the Genocide path is concerned. A primary difference is that Undertale does offer the player the opportunity to abandon the path of bloody violence without quitting the game, but in order to complete the Genocide path, yeah, you've gotta deal with the game treating its world with a heavier weight than most games do.
Based on this thread in general I admit that Undertale seems to do it a lot better.

In fairness...Undertale is the game that came out afterwards. So it was able to greatly improve on the concept of "you shouldn't want to carry on doing this" as a storytelling feature. :)

(Also it probably didn't help that since Spec Ops was based so heavily off Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now there was only really one way to tell that story and keep the impact.)

I think they're both great examples of how well-written games these days can hit your emotions and make you reflect on yourself as a person. They're getting to be increasingly complicated experiences; not just in terms of how complicated they are as an entertainment product but how they can interact with the player.
 

MHR

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Epyc Wyn said:
Is it good to make the player feel on a personal, ethical level like they are a bad person and disgust them with this large amount of negativity they feel in the process, in the name of good video game story-telling?
In an admittedly reductive response to this central question, yes. Yes it is good to make the player feel as such. It makes a good work of art and storytelling to create an experience that makes one feel.
 

CaitSeith

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Epyc Wyn said:
Why does nobody seem to have the balls to criticize Undertale and its genocide mode?
Who said that?

Here is someone with the "balls" to say Genocide mode is awful: