Poll: Why is "The Empire Strikes Back" more highly regarded than "Star Wars"?

[Sixcess]

It seems to be an almost universally accepted 'fact' amongst sci-fi fandom that The Empire Strikes Back is the best of the Star Wars series, and I've never quite understood why. I can see why it's higher regarded than Jedi or the prequel trilogy, but better than Star Wars?

Don't get me wrong - I do like Empire a lot - the battle of Hoth is excellent, the fight between Luke and Vader is the best in the entire series and has one of the most famous reveals in movie history, and the score includes the first use of perhaps the most iconic piece of music in the franchise other than the main title - the Imperial March.

But... for me it sags a bit in the middle. Yoda doesn't really come into his own until the prequels and so in Empire he's mostly just a slightly annoying muppet, and the end is uneven in that while Luke gets the aforementioned awesome confrontation with Vader, the rest of the main characters just run around blasting a few stormtroopers.

Whereas Star Wars, for me at least, is almost flawless. It's one of those rare movies where almost every single scene is memorable. It's packed with iconic scenes, defining character moments and quotable lines, the music is incredible, and the final battle in the Death Star trench holds up incredibly well for a sfx heavy action sequence that was made over 3 decades ago. Really, I watched it again not long ago and was blown away at how good it is.

In short, if Empire is an 8/10 then Star Wars is a 10/10. I'm not saying "I'm right and you're wrong" I'm just curious why so many people think otherwise.

Note: added a poll just in case someone wants to express their preference for the prequels.

 

[Professor Lupin Madblood]

You know, for someone who's apparently been rewatching, or at least thinking about, the Star Wars movies as of late, I find it staggering that you (apparently; I honestly can't be sure) keep referring to A New Hope as Star Wars. Would you refer to The Fellowship of the Ring as The Lord of the Rings?

Linguistic bitching aside, it's been years since I watched the Star Wars movies, but I think the reason that people - myself included, probably - like Episode V more than the others in the sextilogy is that it's successfully darker and more serious in tone than Episode IV. More shit happens, people are betrayed, and the heroes are, if memory serves, which it very well may not, in pretty dire straits at the end of the movie.

Episode IV wasn't bad or anything, and you could no doubt find plenty of people who like it more precisely because it's lighthearted, but it was more . . . traditional, I guess? It's a near-perfection of 3-act narrative structure and pacing, but it doesn't take many chances and it's less serious than Episode V.

They're both fine pieces of cinema, but I think Episode V just has more depth to it, y'know?

And in case anyone cares, I picked Attack of the Clones in the poll, just for kicks.

 

[bananafishtoday]

You know, for someone who's apparently been rewatching, or at least thinking about, the Star Wars movies as of late, I find it staggering that you (apparently; I honestly can't be sure) keep referring to A New Hope as Star Wars. Would you refer to The Fellowship of the Ring as The Lord of the Rings?

The movie was originally just called Star Wars. "Episode IV" and "A New Hope" weren't added until like 5 years later, wheras the first LotR title was "Fellowship" from the start. I'm not personally invested in either title for the first movie, but yeah, that's why.

OT: I think Empire Strike back has the best rep because it's darker and more personal. Without a Death Star to destroy, there's no idealistic "good guys save the day" narrative arc. Also, as a result, it tends to focus more on the characters and their interactions than on the mission they need to accomplish.

 

[Sixcess]

You know, for someone who's apparently been rewatching, or at least thinking about, the Star Wars movies as of late, I find it staggering that you (apparently; I honestly can't be sure) keep referring to A New Hope as Star Wars.

I saw the movie on its original release, way before it became episode IV, so it still comes naturally to me to ignore the episode title.

Episode IV wasn't bad or anything, and you could no doubt find plenty of people who like it more precisely because it's lighthearted, but it was more . . . traditional, I guess? It's a near-perfection of 3-act narrative structure and pacing, but it doesn't take many chances and it's less serious than Episode V.

Bold for emphasis as I find that a really interesting observation. At the time of its release Star Wars took a lot of chances - not in terms of story structure, but in other ways it was incredibly groundbreaking, a literal worldwide sensation that more or less single handedly invented the special effects driven blockbuster movie.

I think you're probably right about Empire being a fan favourite because it's more serious, which would also explain why I don't quite 'get it.' It's kind of like the Mass Effect series - I enjoy them as fun space opera but I've never taken them as seriously as many fans do, and I feel the same way about the Star Wars movies - a few scenes aside they're fun and adventure to me, not even close to dark and serious.

And in case anyone cares, I picked Attack of the Clones in the poll, just for kicks.

Ha. Nice choice, given that whilst The Phantom Menace was more disapointing, I think Clones is probably the worst of the lot - Yoda fight aside.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

Note: added a poll just in case someone wants to express their preference for the prequels.

Why is Episode III missing?

 

[Sixcess]

Why is Episode III missing?

It's listed as an option. Just noone has voted for it yet.

Uh... I think so anyway. I'm pretty sure I included it in the poll. Someone that hasn't voted yet can say for sure.

Edit: used the edit button on my first post to doublecheck, and yeah, Revenge of the Sith was included, just hasn't had any votes yet.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

My answer? Empire Strikes Back is the rare sequel that doesn't go for the actionized sequel that is so pervasive in film and gaming. Empire Strikes back is actually the least action heavy film in the movie, instead focusing on delving deeper into the universe and the characters. It is a somber film, much more interested in the way the Star Wars universe works than in just giving us another shoot'em up.

It also helps that it has some of the best music in the entire series, Darth Vader at the height of his fear factor, YODA, and the master of Cool, Billy D Lando Williams.

 

[BathorysGraveland]

Not too long ago, I actually watched the whole saga back to back for the first time, so I went in there with an open mind. I actually thought Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith were the better films in the franchise, along with Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The big glaring holes for me were the first films in both trilogies. The Phantom Menace was abysmally horrible, no sane person would ever dare to venture that far into the dark side to defend that film. But A New Hope? Eh, I don't know, it just felt... inconsequential. It felt small and rather hollow compared to the two that came after, and the two that (canonically) came before.

It could be that I am free of the burden of nostalgia, and can make more free thinking opinions towards them, but I just can't see these huge problems with the prequel trilogy with that first fil... nah, film is too good. With that first pile of shit aside. I'd probably go as far to say that Revenge of the Sith was the film I enjoyed most out of them all.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

Why is Episode III missing?

It's listed as an option. Just noone has voted for it yet.

Uh... I think so anyway. I'm pretty sure I included it in the poll. Someone that hasn't voted yet can say for sure.

Edit: used the edit button on my first post to doublecheck, and yeah, Revenge of the Sith was included, just hasn't had any votes yet.

Ah, I see now.

 

[The Madman]

New Hope is the most self-contained of the Star Wars movies, which is probably part of why you like it most. Unlike any other movie in the series it carries a complete and self-contained story-arc that begins and concludes within the span of the movie, meaning it's the only movie that can really be watched entirely on its own for a fully satisfactory experience. It's also by far the movie to wear its influences such as Flash Gorgon the most openly. It's a somewhat corny but nevertheless endearingly serious take on fantasy fiction and rarely tries to be anything other than that. Just a well done lighthearted space adventure both children and adults alike can enjoy!

Personally I'll always have a soft spot for Return of the Jedi. True Empire is by far the most adult of the movies and in its own right extremely well done... probably the best of the trilogy really. But damn if it isn't a bit depressing that it's been around 30 years and the space battle from Return of the Jedi is still the best I've ever seen, then when you add in that final confrontation between Luke and the Emperor as well as his father, well, it's cinematic history. Hell I don't even mind the Ewok. They're cheesy yes, but they serve a narrative purpose and they don't overwhelm the movie with their presence unlike certain other movies...

Ug, the prequels... I honestly wonder sometimes how the same man largely responsible for the original trilogy also made those. They're just bad. Objectively bad. I don't understand why anyone would really like them especially compared to the originals, I honestly don't. Even visually I prefer the originals, I'll take masterfully done editing and puppetry over badly aged CGI anyday.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Honestly, I don't really think any of these movies are that great anymore. The Empire Strikes Back will always be my favourite though because it had IMO the most tense lightsaber fight in the series. Plus the epic twist is just too iconic not to get a mention.

 

[Abomination]

There are parts of every Star Wars movie that I liked a lot and there are parts of every movie that I did not like a lot.

Every scene with Qui-gon, the giant battle and pod racing of Episode 1.
Every scene involving clones in Episode 2.
Anakin and Obi-wan's final battle and, again, anything involving the clones in Episode 3.
Everything to do with Han & Chewie of Episode 4.
The fact that the Empire WINS in Episode 5.
The raid on Jaba's palace in Episode 6.

The rest of it was pretty meh upon reflection.

The prequels introduced modern action and CGI effects to really bring the idea of sci-fi to life. Unfortunately it also enforced the whole "Star Wars is for kids too!" thing and spent far too much time on "late teen romance drama!" involving Anakin and Padme.

4-6 had a far more mature feel to them but unfortunately lacked the polish of modern films.

I have actually enjoyed the Cartoon Network CGI Clone Wars series far more than the movies themselves.

 

[Vrach]

Yeah, I'd say Yoda is the best and one of the only good thing about the prequels. Maybe it's because I'm younger, but original Yoda was, as you say, a Muppet. I far prefer him as an old badass as shown in the prequels. Don't get me wrong, I'd be cool with him being old and frail, but as the OP says, he was literally a muppet in the Empire and that feels like more of a "let's sell a toy" like the Ewoks than what one of the most powerful Jedi should look like.

That said, I feel Star Wars reached perfection in the Empire. Aside from Yoda, everything else seemed a lot more serious and well done. It felt like a real epic on every field, the space and land battles, the lightsaber fights, the story... Star Wars (ANH) was excellent, but it was far more campy than the Empire. It's the best in the sense that it all began there, but as the objectivively best movie, I really feel Empire easily takes the crown there.

 

[Vrach]

You know, for someone who's apparently been rewatching, or at least thinking about, the Star Wars movies as of late, I find it staggering that you (apparently; I honestly can't be sure) keep referring to A New Hope as Star Wars. Would you refer to The Fellowship of the Ring as The Lord of the Rings?

If I remember correctly, A New Hope was originally called just Star Wars. A New Hope was a title that was attached to it later as Star Wars became the franchise. That wasn't the case with LOTR, with neither the movies or the book.

 

[Kirov Reporting]

RotJ is my favourite because of one simple and amazing piece of design..

Biker Scouts.

That said, I haven't actually watched the films in a long time, they mostly just exist in my memory. I've spent more time in the last 10 years buying SW merchandise than watching SW films.

 

[Shocksplicer]

I like ROTJ best, because I saw the original trilogy when I was a kid, and the action in ROTJ is the best, and my childhood imressions remain.

 

[The_State]

Star Wars is pure, unadulterated, formulaic storytelling. It follows Campbell's "Hero's Journey" almost beat for beat, and there is a reason it is used as a litmus for pacing in storytelling to this day. It is self-contained because it had to be. Nobody knew if it was going to succeed, so they couldn't bank on making a sequel. Empire had the luxury of telling a more compelling story, and it had the privilege of telling the most important part of that story, the buildup.

Empire is, from start to finish, high tension storytelling. Even in the more lighthearted scenes in Cloud City there is that ever-present dread. It comes across in the the music, the scenery, and even the way the camera is positioned. I haven't seen the film in a while, but I also recall that the voices were more muted than in the others, giving the movie a quieter tone. The movie doesn't even really HAVE a falling action after the saber fight climax. There's a bit of one with Luke getting his new hand, but it then ends with a high-tension cliffhanger. There isn't a lot of action, but there is always the threat of disaster, and that's what makes a compelling movie.

EDIT: As to the bit about Yoda. The whole point of his character is that he is more than he seems. He embodies the concept of not judging a book by its cover. His design is intended to fool the audience, then surprise them with the truth of the tiny Muppet's capacity. He's annoying because he is testing Luke's patience. He is combative in order to judge Luke's conviction. Yoda was a very carefully crafted character, both in design and in execution.