Poll: WikiLeaks - Good or bad?

[lacktheknack]

It's down, and that makes me sad.

 

[tomtom94]

There's no black and white here, it's shades of grey and we need someone who's willing to hold governments accountable and some way for whistleblowers to get out, otherwise we are no better than Stalinist Russia.

Are we going to like everything they show us? No, of course not. But equally some stuff needs revealing.

 

[lacktheknack]

Now, not on topic, but how do some of you people change what it says under you name in the idtag on the side of the forum posts?

Publisher's Club.

 

[HT_Black]

In my mind, it's as simple as this: there are some things that need to be common knowledge (I.E. Guantanamo Bay, the Chopper video, ACTA) and it's not like governments are going to tell anyone. Thus far, the Wikileaks crew has had the discretion needed to avoid endangering soldiers in the field, and as long as they still have that, they're unquestionably good guys.

 

[Tomo Stryker]

As much as I love information, sometimes anonymous companies that pride themselves on blowing whistles doesn't exactly sound appealing. Of course that means that the governments that are hiding these documents aren't doing as good of a job as they could be at making them invisible. My vote? WikiLeaks needs to be removed, the word "leaks" alone sets my alarm system buzzing.

 

[kebab4you]

Sorry it´s in swedish but google translate could probably give an o.k translation off it.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/pengaflode-till-wikileaks-stoppas-1.1221463

OT; Yeah I consider wikileaks good, U.S hide way to much information just because they feel like it...

 

[Flac00]

I think its a good thing. Whenever diplomats or heads of state play nice with other countries you just feel that they are doing it throigh gritted teeth. Now with the leaks, we can all see what we really think of each other, no more living a lie, get it all out into the open.

Plus, its particularly good for my country the UK because if the public outrage over the USA's opinion of us is anything to go by there is no chance in hell we will be dragged into another of their wars. Hell, go even further with that and my country's army might actually pull out of the current ones right now.

It is fine, until it threatens the life of the people fighting in the war. When wikileaks revealed the identities of translators, it became dangerous. Free speech without persecution is fine until it kills.

 

[HK_01]

It's a great thing. It exposes lies of politicians about things which are of interest to the general public. I want to know how a war is really going.

 

[Delusibeta]

While I would approve the general concept, I'm a little uncomfortable with the fact that it's pretty much all controlled by one man.

 

[the clockmaker]

On the topic of the sex scandal, sweeden is trying to arrest him, not the US. The US does not arrest Australians for raping swedes in Sweeden. The US is planning to arrest him, pending an investigation, because he stole, or recieved stolen documents classified as secret or above. Ya know, espionage.

On the topic of the leaks themselves, imagine that a government is a mind. A single mind. Every one of these diplomats is I dunno synapses or whatever and these leaks, none of which show evidence of war crimes or human rights abuses by the way are thoughts.

Think for a moment about all the thoughts that go through your mind every day, especially those about other people, 'wow, he's a tosser, she's ugly, that joke was retarded, I love her, I love him, I love lamp.' now you don't believe any of these things, not really, but the thought does flash through your mind.

Now imagine that everyone suddenly knew every thought you'd had about them. How do you think that this is going to affect your relationship? The fact is that sometimes things are better kept secret, at least until they have been around for long enough for the freedom of information act to kick in.

Also, he claims to have been in contact with 'Australian intelligence' now I don't know about you guys, but if my job was information dissemination, I would at least be able to name the agency that contacted me, ASIO ASIS DIO DSA or DSD, AFP maybe, no one who has had contact with these groups would simply call them Australian intelligence.

I highly doubt Assange raped anyone. Its a little.... convenient.... for someone to be accused of a heinous crime (and is highly prone to abuse, and false convictions) after he leaked sensitive information. the charges were dropped an hour after being made public. strange? yes. coincidence? i think not. the freedom of information act is a JOKE. a contrived law that does the OPPOSITE of what it says. Wikileaks has shit tons of information about covering up the deaths of journalists and civilians, and even violations in other countries such as dyncorp's sex trafficking. Couple that with public knowledge of censoring and burning books the US is looking pretty bad right now.

In short, George Washington would have a shit fit.

To my knowledge mate, the charges were dropped due to a procedual error are refiled rapidly afterwards.

And I must confess that I have fairly little understanding of the US legal system and was basing my estimate on the freedom of information laws on the great southern land. If my estimate was incorrect, I was wrong and I appologise.

My point was though, some stuff is best kept secret because of the fallout it would create, this has raised tensions with Iran, the DPRK, Libya and damaged relations with countless other nations. And what tangible bloody benifit have we gained? Have the politicians sworn to never do anything bad again? have all human rights abuses stopped? Has this engendered a new era of peace and openness?

No, it is simply an Ideological act of seeming to progress rather than actually improving anything, this guy is not gonna stick around to fix anything, he's not going to try and improve relations with other nations. He is the guy who walks into a marrige counsiling session and shouts 'he banged a hooker' and then walks back out again.

We have no way of verifying his information, we have no way of bringing him to account for the crimes he has commited (the issue of the sexual molestation charge really being tangetel here) and the thing that annoys me is that noone seems to want to. But again, his actions appeal to the cult of seeming Ideologically pure, rather than actually getting in the mud and trying to fix the damned situation, and do you know why?

Its because sometimes you have to do bad things to achieve a good result, that doesn't make it right, but it does make it nessecary. Sometimes you simply have to stick your neck out and get your hands dirty and you do this, knowing that indirectly (will of public=votes=government=policy=orders) your nation has your back and you can walk away and continue your life afterwards. But those who stand on the sidelines and judge can be lauded, never helping, but seeming like the good guys while they do it.

I am not claiming that that justtifies all the alleged acts leaked, but how likely are good men and women going to stick their necks out when for all they know, their jobs will be stripped of context and turned into one or two word gossip tidbits. A journalist is killed whilst travelling amongst an armed group of insurgents? 'US MURDERS PRESS'! A special forces team throws a granade into a building which a group of terrorists are firing from, accidently killing a family being used as human shields that they were unaware of? 'ASSIES KILL KIDS'!

Releasing this stuff helps no one, and only makes the 'ideologically pure' feel good about themselves.

I appologise if my tone is a bit rude, and I hope I have not offended, but acts like this do make me angry.

 

[the clockmaker]

actually the journalist was merely walking around with his camera crew and the cameras were "mistaken" for RPGS and blown up with a damn attack helicopter. if you heard the radio chatter it was no accident. The pilot basically just shouted "kill em! kill em or they will kill us! shoot first ask questions later!". There was no thought, just shots fired. If it WAS an RPG they would have been shot down by the time they fired the missile. Hell the psych reports from the American military are plain scary. The American military literally is full of sociopaths as they view non-Americans as rapid dogs needing to be put down and in one case, slaughter for a contest. War is war.

All these documents would have been grabbed by a spy anyway if these documents were THAT insecure. They would have been stolen and passed around the international community. Make no mistake, espionage is very real and these documents would have been child's play if they didn't already have them. It literally made no difference as the same diplomatic effect would have been achieved except we wouldn't have known about it. Its better to have the people know why people hate them with a passion, than to be in the dark.

Its America's own damn fault for not hiding its dirty laundry better. It certainly isn't a land of saints as they broke MANY treaties and made more than their share of morally questionable choices.

Hmm, my info might be outdated on that topic, if so, then I appologise, but the point still stands. Ive read reports of British soldiers being killed my mortar teams that were allowed to escape because the contact report would look strange. Also, more a technical point than a moral one, but no, life is not a viedo game and an RPG cannot shoot down an AH64 before the pilot has a chance to react. I also dont like the use of 'mistaken' in inverted commas, it is difficult to determine the exact nature of shoulder mounted objects at hight.

The point is not about knowledge, the point is about open knowledge, If Iran knows that france wants to go to war, they can up their readieness and chill relations a little. If everybody knows that france to go to war, then Iran has to react in a big public fashion. It stops becoming the issue itself and starts becoming the public perception of the issue, two completly differant beasts. That is the entire point of deniable information.

How many soldiers have you actually met? How many have you talked to? I lived on a USMC base for two years and I saw jingosism, extreame over masculinity and offensive language but funnily enough, not much sociopathy or real racism.

But it is good to see that you agree he has commited espoinage, a criminal offence in most nations and justifcation for his arrest. Every secret is stolen at one point or another, and these were not exactly big secrets, mostly things that were public knowledge stated less politlely. The only differance is now states have to react to the information and that is in no way a good thing.

If you will read the post you have quoted,

Its because sometimes you have to do bad things to achieve a good result, that doesn't make it right, but it does make it nessecary. Sometimes you simply have to stick your neck out and get your hands dirty and you do this, knowing that indirectly (will of public=votes=government=policy=orders) your nation has your back and you can walk away and continue your life afterwards. But those who stand on the sidelines and judge can be lauded, never helping, but seeming like the good guys while they do it.

I am not claiming that that justtifies all the alleged acts leaked, but how likely are good men and women going to stick their necks out when for all they know, their jobs will be stripped of context and turned into one or two word gossip tidbits. A journalist is killed whilst travelling amongst an armed group of insurgents? 'US MURDERS PRESS'! A special forces team throws a granade into a building which a group of terrorists are firing from, accidently killing a family being used as human shields that they were unaware of? 'ASSIES KILL KIDS'!

I never claimed that they were a land of saints. But hey, Next time your personal information is published, remember, the guy who did it is blameless, its your fault for not hiding it better.

Also, please answer my question, what actual, tangible good has this brought for its heavy cost? Why do you take everything this man says for gospel? Why is one, unelected man deciding what does and does not constitute national security?

 

[Cazza]

I don't think it was good or bad. It just another for the news to report. Nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

 

[the clockmaker]

1. Soldier dispositions were shown on a psychiatric evaluation report and recent events. Soldiers had a contest on how many afghans they can kill and frame them to look like terrorists. No wikileaks, just old fashioned anonymous whistle blowing inside the base. The higher chain of command knew about it but didn't care and it wasn't until it become public knowledge did they finally do anything.

2. He was given information, which is not espionage it is more along the lines of freedom of press. Espionage is mostly limited to agents working for a foreign country.

3. Only diplomacy was affected, military operations were more or less remained the same. Military operations are much harder to get to than diplomatic papers. The leak merely revealed things we already knew and even exposed some shady shit that America shouldn't be doing.

4. Because he actually does things the journalists should have been doing. Now its just Justin Beiber 24/7. They are up his ass so much they should be checking for ass cancer while they are up there. The tangible effect remains to be seen. Effects are not explained as if it was Fallout 2. Time reveals the effects of an action, not an announcer. If what i read from these reports are true, national security and diplomacy wont mean anything in the near future anyway.

1. You said literally full of psychopaths. Please actually provide evidence of at least a majority. Are there psychopaths in the military, yes, should they be punished, yes, do their actions reflect negitively on the rest of the service, yes. Does that make all of them psychopaths and therefore to be treated as criminals at every turn. How many soldiers do you know personally, because, as I said, in the two years living amongst the USMC (and 15+years living amongst the ADF) I have seen little justification for phrases such as 'literally full of psychopaths'

2. Espionage is other states, hostile enemies of the state and non state actors. He is a non state actor communicating with comprimised elements within the US govt. to obtain secrect documents, I mean, do you want him to buy a white cat and start torturing MI6 agents?!

3. See my post on the negative effects this has had on diplomacy, It doesn't need to comprimise ongoing military actions to be detrimental to military actions in the long term. See also my points about getting your hands dirty for the greater good. I don't mind if oyu disagree with my points, that is after all what makes discussions like this fun, but please don't ignore important sections of my argument.

4. This is not Journalism, because journalists are supposed to have a modicum of responsibility. No one doubts that what he alleges is 100% accurate, in a world where people still doubt the moon landings, this guy gets off scott free.

Mate, you can use your brain, what tangible effects do you think will come from this. Please do not make condesceding remarks about the nature of blowback, I just want to to justify what good, other than an ideological fuzzy feeling, will come out of the whole mess, considering the risks that have been taken and the cost incurred.

5.What do you mean national security and diplomacy won't matter? That nations won't exist? that the US wont exist? That we shall all suddenly get along. I'm not being sarcastic mate, I genuinely don't know what you mean by that, what reports claimed that?