Now that you mention it, that sounds like it could be really cool. I'm not usually into gender bending, but its just like you said, the character reincarnates. There is a good reason for it. Heck, I'd even like to see a prince Zelda. In fairness though, I haven't gotten around to these games, I've only watched my brother but still consider myself a fan.
Hell no. Just make a new character or use Zelda. Why do people keep bringing this up? You cool with Hollywood "white-washing" a cast? No? Then why be cool with "Vag-washing" one? It doesn't make Link more interesting just because now he has something else under his little skirt. The idea brings nothing to table for the series. I seriously cant wrap my head around why this is pushed on so much other than an internet personality once said they thought it would be a good idea. Plus, the whole sexism in gaming thing. I have yet to see 1 good reason why this should even be wanted.
It feels cheap and gimmicky because Link is a well established character every bit as much as Mario and even more than Kratos. The only reason to do it is to try to be "edgy" with the whole female protagonist thing going on. However, it isn't edgy because you are piggybacking on Link's previous success. What would be "edgy" is making a new well written female character and actually trying to buck the trend with something fresh and unique.
Today I learned that female protagonists are "edgy."
Good to know.
On topic. I don't think I'd have a problem with it. Since Link, as a character is essentially a new person in each major incarnation of the game I see no reason why a female link would be a problem. Link specifically doesn't really come ingrained with an established personality so there's nothing about him that wouldn't work with a bit of a gender swap.
Yeah, I'd rather see a new IP rather than just shuffling the cards in the same deck but that's an entirely different argument.
Well, then apparently you missed all the hub-bub about Remember Me, The Last of Us, Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite, etc. Female protagonists right now are like bait for controversy, like it or not. Bait for controbversy = edgy. So I guess that today you did learn that female protagonists are "edgy". Or you would have if that statement wasn't sarcasm like I suspect it to be to try and imply that my remark is on a sexist premise. For better or worse female protagonists are edgy right now. Especially, if you go gender bending a long well known and established male character for no other reason than to throw femininity into the spotlight.
The biggest problem I have with this is that even if the game does well, he fact it is with a female protagonist is moot because that success was piggybacked on what a male character achieved. You do realize that LoZ goes down as the best game of all time most of the time. It was THE game that is often revered as the best game series ever. Then you make Link a female and the game does well and people seriously think that would mean anything or offer anything? The series is legendary as is. To make Link a woman and then go "see female protagonists can be successful" is retarded. It's more like "See, LoZ is so popular it will be successful even if you throw away one of the main character's very few identifying attributes." OR worse. Imagine that despite this thread's ridiculously low fanbase input poll a, the series does this and it does poorly. Congrats, you just reinforced that female characters can't even sell LoZ.
I see a lot of "I am not a fan of Zelda series and I would be ok with it" in this thread. I know 3 heavy Zelda fans that would NOT be OK with it and I am not counting myself. (I would make #4 although those 3 are bigger fans than I am.) All doing this does is stand to prove nothing or worse risk setting the whole female protagonist thing back even further than it already is.
Zelda/Sheik is what has something to offer here. Not making Link transgender as he is far too established at this point. ALl you really are doing is risking pissing off fans for no reason when you have Zelda/Sheik right there to do the little experiment. Part of me wonders if the reason so many people would rather see Link turn into a girl over Zelda getting some screen time is simply to piss off the long time fans and call them sexist crybabies.
Most characters in all fiction could have a gender swap and it wouldn't effect the story. Perhaps Bilbo Baggins needs to be a woman in the Hobbit.
LoZ is a series of games that I love, but it's nowhere near perfect. It relies on a perhaps lazy 'hero saves the princess' plot nearly every game. Even beyond that, LoZ is the poster boy for Nintendo's image as a rehash/nostalgia developer. Lumping it into the context of society, and all of its problems, LoZ would not shine as an example for gaming significance.
Maybe a gender swap doesnt have to be a big deal? There's evidence all over the thread as to why it would practically work, so I won't go into that here, but my itchiest reason goes against my own opinion; I'm with you that simply gender swapping Link wouldn't be interesting....
To me. But what if someone else likes the option?
Should I stomp all over someone else's preference, even if it IS practically skewed (I.E. among other things wrong with gender swapping Link, simply a girl acting and fighting like a boy)? Are you going to be so tied up with gender representation (in kids no less) to let this affect your experience with the game?
Besides my inquiries, I'm finding you predicate your argument on the fact that the boy who breaks pots, swings purple-hilted swords, uses various tools, etc. becomes the hero who resolves the plight of the game environment. You don't think that this at least nudges the idea of male empowerment, that it's only the boy who can wield the Master Sword and various tools to save the princess, and ultimately the kingdom? This isn't some horrendous example of gender inequality, but I believe it does go back to my first point.
Neither get me wrong on my views, either. A gender swapped Link is also a lazy move, just as much as the plot device of Link saving Zelda...AGAIN. But on counts of comparison, I'm choosing a simpler lens to see this through, and it's overall pretty positive for a female Link.
Perhaps we're at the point that the lack of female leads means we MAYBE shouldn't always walk on eggshells, just to 'represent the female person properly'. That sort of view comes with its own set of problems. Let a risk happen; there are positives for a female to be in a game (who's not a blatant sex object[footnote]I'm not so subtly judging you if you do this[/footnote]). To have 'proper' representation would be excellent, and truly (and sadly) groundbreaking, especially for a series as 'ingrained' in its ways as LoZ. But even a sideways step might help.
I can't wait to play as a voiceless, barely emotional girl! The drastic change of adding boobs would change the game SOO much! -End Sarcasm-
I want to be straight up front here. Link is like in the loosest terms a person, changing his gender wouldn't change the game in ANY meaningful way.
I know some people want to play a girl instead of a boy and save the world, but Zelda just isn't that kind of game. Link's not really all that male either.
Turning him into a girl would only accomplish to change his appearance. Which is what makes Link last so long is he doesn't have a gender defining character, or much of a personality, you just place yourself inside the character and thats it.
Adding a female DOES nothing. Now, if we were talking about a game where the characters personality drove the plot, hell yeah! Then changing the gender would have an actual effect on the game and let you play as a GIRL/BOY, rather then the same person with a quick modification to their design.
Playing Link as a girl, would be the same as playing Link if he decided to not wear a tunic.
It would catch a few looks, but it'd do nothing worthy of note.
I can see what you mean but I rather they used Zelda since her name is in the bloody title. Even then, changing the sex wouldn't change the game (which does make it a gimmick) so I reckon they should just make a new female lead altogether in a different type of game since I think there is enough Zelda games at the moment.
A self-fulfilling prophecy, "Link is locked in the minds of gamers as a guy because gamers think of him as a guy because they've only seen him as a guy because..." Its like the self-fulfilling prophecy of "new IPs can't make money because they're not being advertised because they can't recoup costs because not enough people will buy the game because its a new IP and they don;t know about it because its not being advertised because..." and you get the idea.
I agree, but it's just how the gamer masses see him. Even if he looks a little different in each incarnation, he's still the blond-to-light-brown haired, white kid in a green tunic and hat with pointed ears. As a whole, gamer culture views him as the same person. Even now in this discussion, we aren't referring to Link as a specific Link, the Link from Ocarina of Time or the Link from the Adventure of Link. He's just Link, singular masculine pronoun and all. This will only change with the introduction and progressive future additions of the female Link, but until then, he is locked as a single gender in the minds of gamers everywhere as much as any of Nintendo's icons.
MarsAtlas said:
I'm sure if the main Pokemon series had never introduced a female player character, and you tried to introduce one today, you'd get a bunch of similar "OMG whyyyy?" even though, like Link, they're different people. Hell, thats the reaction that Pokemon Crystal had at my school when it was released - childish and unjustified knee-jerk rage.
EDIT: I'm just going to strike this part of my post since, upon rereading, it doesn't properly address the issue you presented. Apologies if I caused some confusion. I should have taken this point into more consideration instead of posting without pause. Mmmm. To be honest, I think this comparison has more glaring issues than what you (correctly) pointed out with my Samus comparison. For one thing, the boy and girl characters are two different children with separate names. They don't even look alike. If Link becomes a woman, she'll still be Link. Another thing is the fact that Pokemon gives you the choice between genders, making it more like a role-playing game.
Also, as you pointed out, the addition of the girl was done relatively quickly in the series, back when it was only at second generation with Gold, Silver, and Crystal. Comparing the impact of adding a second playable character in the Pokemon series to the impact of completely swapping the gender the main character of a long-running series that goes as far back as Nintendo's roots doesn't hold a lot of water.
MarsAtlas said:
I think the reaction to Samus being gender-swapped would be fairly negative, not just because she's a woman, but because she's an established character, unlike Link. Link has wiggle room, Samus, well, doesn't. Parents killed by Space Pirates, raised by the Chozo, blah blah blah. While most Links actually have a personality, they don't have a defined background beyond "Bearer of the Triforce of Courage", and even that isn't the case in the beginning of most of TLoZ games. We could play many of the TLoZ games under the impression that we're going to acquire the Triforce of Courage, only to have the rug swept out from under if the in-game text is adjusted. Aside from the place they grew up, every Link is a blank slate, whereas Samus already has her past written out for her. Quite frankly, that might be the most underutilized part of the franchise, as its a strong opportunity to tell a story about a character and to make every TLoZ dealing with a personal issue in a way that is intertwined into the narrative, such as many strong inferences about Majora's Mask that its about Link dealing with the grief of the loss of Navi, or even his own life. That there is what cements Majora's Mask as one of the best games I've played and probably ever will play, whereas every other Zelda unfortunately doesn't use Link as anything other than a vessel for the player to destroy pots and cut grass with.
Yes, I realize all this, but again I'm not looking at the canonical or even writing impact upon Zelda's storyline. I agree that Link has a lot more wiggle room with acceptable canonicity considering the games feel less like a continuing story and more like a re-imagining. However, it can't be denied that the public outcry within the gaming industry, seeing Link as a single entity within the stable of Nintendo icons, would just as quickly denounce the changing of Link's gender as nothing more than Rule 63 fanservice. Just as much outcry as the changing of Samus to male would be quickly denounced as nothing more than an petty appeal to the white teenage male.
As I said, the marginal difference would still exist, but it would be slim. Link is one of the largest driving forces in the gaming industry, much larger than Samus, however unfortunate that is for such a great series. It makes sense that the gamer masses, from the lowest common denominator to the highest, would be far less accepting of such an incredible change to the character.
I have to go with no. Link is fully established to be a male character. If you want a female lead in a Zelda title, I'd suggest making Zelda herself, the lead. While I think it would be a bit more challenging(since Zelda and the Triforce of Wisdom would be a lot easier to locate than Link and the Triforce of Courage), it would definitely be a much more interesting experience.
I vote that instead of making Link into a female character, they make Zelda into the protagonist. She's obviously not as powerless as the plot would have you believe. Smash Bros. and previous Zelda titles show us that she's proficient with several forms of magic, from fireballs to shielding to levitation and even teleportation. Twilight Princess shows her wielding a sword, even if to fire magic from it. The same game shows her to be proficient in horseback archery. So I believe it to be within the realm of possibility for Zelda to wield the Master Sword and several of Link's trademark tools, herself.
Zelda's strengths allow for Nintendo to give us an experience that is also familiar, but different. While Zelda's capable of using several weapons from Link's arsenal, she's much more capable with magic than Link is, which could become a major focus of how Zelda would fight. I'd buy that up in a heartbeat.
While I'm usually all for female protagonists (well done protagonists in particular), I find myself hesitant at the idea of a female Link simply because he's such a well established character with over 20 years of history even if it is usually a different Link in each game. Petty and ridiculous, I know, but it feels similar to taking any other beloved, well established character and changing them around to the same degree.
Why not just switch the roles? Make Zelda the central character and Link the one in need of rescuing for a change. There has been a game or two where Zelda's been fairly badass in her own right.
I'd be okay with it. Not that I'm much of a LOZ fan, but anyhow...
My only question is: Why? No, seriously. What would be the point of it. I'd like Link to stay more of a (oh god, I'm forced to use an anime term) "bishonen". He's a guy, but he doesn't really have any of the stereotypical manly characteristics.
Sure, I care not at all if the player character is male, female, monster, robot, alien, etc. Besides lengthen the hair a bit and lengthen the tunic and now its a girl in a skirt.
Although frankly instead of female Link, why not you know be ZELDA?
Why do we need female Link? Why not just have a LoZ game where you actually play as Zelda? That would give us the female lead without provoking massive backlash, while at the same time adding the potential for new gameplay elements. (More useful magic, swapping between magically oriented Zelda "form" and physically oriented Sheik "form" ect. )
Hell no. Just make a new character or use Zelda. Why do people keep bringing this up? You cool with Hollywood "white-washing" a cast? No? Then why be cool with "Vag-washing" one? It doesn't make Link more interesting just because now he has something else under his little skirt. The idea brings nothing to table for the series. I seriously cant wrap my head around why this is pushed on so much other than an internet personality once said they thought it would be a good idea. Plus, the whole sexism in gaming thing. I have yet to see 1 good reason why this should even be wanted.
It feels cheap and gimmicky because Link is a well established character every bit as much as Mario and even more than Kratos. The only reason to do it is to try to be "edgy" with the whole female protagonist thing going on. However, it isn't edgy because you are piggybacking on Link's previous success. What would be "edgy" is making a new well written female character and actually trying to buck the trend with something fresh and unique.
Today I learned that female protagonists are "edgy."
Good to know.
On topic. I don't think I'd have a problem with it. Since Link, as a character is essentially a new person in each major incarnation of the game I see no reason why a female link would be a problem. Link specifically doesn't really come ingrained with an established personality so there's nothing about him that wouldn't work with a bit of a gender swap.
Yeah, I'd rather see a new IP rather than just shuffling the cards in the same deck but that's an entirely different argument.
Well, then apparently you missed all the hub-bub about Remember Me, The Last of Us, Tomb Raider, Bioshock Infinite, etc. Female protagonists right now are like bait for controversy, like it or not. Bait for controbversy = edgy. So I guess that today you did learn that female protagonists are "edgy". Or you would have if that statement wasn't sarcasm like I suspect it to be to try and imply that my remark is on a sexist premise. For better or worse female protagonists are edgy right now. Especially, if you go gender bending a long well known and established male character for no other reason than to throw femininity into the spotlight.
The biggest problem I have with this is that even if the game does well, he fact it is with a female protagonist is moot because that success was piggybacked on what a male character achieved. You do realize that LoZ goes down as the best game of all time most of the time. It was THE game that is often revered as the best game series ever. Then you make Link a female and the game does well and people seriously think that would mean anything or offer anything? The series is legendary as is. To make Link a woman and then go "see female protagonists can be successful" is retarded. It's more like "See, LoZ is so popular it will be successful even if you throw away one of the main character's very few identifying attributes." OR worse. Imagine that despite this thread's ridiculously low fanbase input poll a, the series does this and it does poorly. Congrats, you just reinforced that female characters can't even sell LoZ.
I see a lot of "I am not a fan of Zelda series and I would be ok with it" in this thread. I know 3 heavy Zelda fans that would NOT be OK with it and I am not counting myself. (I would make #4 although those 3 are bigger fans than I am.) All doing this does is stand to prove nothing or worse risk setting the whole female protagonist thing back even further than it already is.
Zelda/Sheik is what has something to offer here. Not making Link transgender as he is far too established at this point. ALl you really are doing is risking pissing off fans for no reason when you have Zelda/Sheik right there to do the little experiment. Part of me wonders if the reason so many people would rather see Link turn into a girl over Zelda getting some screen time is simply to piss off the long time fans and call them sexist crybabies.
Most characters in all fiction could have a gender swap and it wouldn't effect the story. Perhaps Bilbo Baggins needs to be a woman in the Hobbit.
Something being bait for controversy isn't synonymous with being edgy.
Edgy, by definition is simply something that is avant-garde or innovative, specifically in terms of social culture.
The only argument I'm really hearing here is that we should keep Link as male because that's the way it's always been. Well, that's just not good enough for me. As a fan of the series myself I've grown increasingly unimpressed with the series. It refuses to make any notable changes to the premise short of a few token UI changes to try to justify the gimmicky-ass control schemes.
While we're trading unprovable anecdotal evidence. I have several friends myself who have sat around with me talking about how to make a female led LoZ title work. Something we do because as fans of the series the idea does have a certain appeal to us. So...stalemate there I guess.
As for the idea of gender swapping any fictional character being equally as valid. You have to know that Link is uncommon in the genre in that he's one of few legacy characters. The Link in Legend of Zelda is not the same boy appearing in Link to the Past, Windwaker, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Minish Cap or Skyward Sword. It's a story of reincarnation and recursion and there's nothing in the lore the invalidates the idea of a female child hero taking up the mantle to defend the realm against a recurring threat.
No, I wouldn't be okay. I would, however, be fine with a game where you just play as Zelda
Diddy_Mao said:
It's a story of reincarnation and recursion and there's nothing in the lore the invalidates the idea of a female child hero taking up the mantle to defend the realm against a recurring threat.
And, more pointedly, in every incarnation to date, over a dozen if you just consider the major titles, Link has always been male. There is, as such, no particular reason to assume it can be altered that has ever been offered beyond mere speculation to the effect that "they haven't said it is impossible". In advocating for this change, one that would literally require nothing more than a swap of character model and re-record of a half dozen sound effects, you basically ask for a meaningless switch that offers nothing of interest or consequence either narratively or mechanically.
By contrast, if you make the Princess the focus of the story, at least you have a basis for doing something different and interesting. What's more, the basis for Zelda being an action hero already exists in the franchise.
I think it'd work no matter what gender "Link" takes, as long as it can work with the characters that "Link" interacts with. Heck, I'm writing a book that has parallel universe incarnations of the same person and I'm varying their existences by differing their ages, genders, and moral alignments
The only people who would have problems with it are adult babies.
I don't see why the concept would not work. In all the games descriptors of Link, he is described as a hero in green garb. Sex, race, bodyshape, etc. never played a factor in that.
Hell Link could be a Goron and it could work.
This idea was actually done before at least once. (Female Link, not the Zelda game where you play Zelda)
Though, it wasn't "official".
A dad made a mod for a Zelda game where he just changed a lot of the "he"s to "she"s and what not.
And, BAM! Link's a girl.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-09-man-mods-wind-wakers-pronouns-to-make-link-a-female-role-model
Guy did it all so his daughter could play a game as a girl.
So as for a reason for why Nintendo should do this? It would be nice of them to throw their female fans a bone.
Plus, for a game as big as Zelda, it wouldn't be hard, or that much of a risk.
That said, a game about Zelda does sound cool too.
Not just as Sheik. It would be neat to see how Nintendo would make a game for Zelda, seeing as she uses a lot of magic.
What could be cooler than playing as a elf using magic, who can also kick ass as a ninja?!
Yeah, Nintendo probably would have no problems executing any of those ideas.
Honestly, I'm not worried about Nintendo doing it.
I think I even saw an article on the Destructoid that said Miyamoto wouldn't mind doing this very thing if enough people demanded it.
I'm worried about the fan backlash.
Link's only constant descriptor like I said was a hero in green garb. Nothing else.
Yet you have people insisting that Link being white and male is part of that canon as well therefore Link can't be a girl. Which is total bull.
If anything, Nintendo would be accused of political correctness, instead of praised for their huge freedom of creative wiggle room that the series is known for.
Yeah, if they did make Link a women/girl, there would be a fair amount of people going ape over it.
Then again, when isn't there some people going ape over things? ;p
That said, I would think that would be out weighed by the good will they would get for doing it.
In truth, it's not MUCH more than a kind gesture, unless they do more than just change the gender.
However, it would still be something of an olive branch to people asking for more women in games.
Plus, what are the people complaining going to actually do besides *****? Not buy the game?
Somehow I doubt that.
As for a Zelda game about Zelda. Well, that's got to be only a matter of time. Surprised they didn't do it already.
Side question: Is the dragon in your avatar from something?
Well, Miyamoto talked about making the next Link dark skinned (like dark skinned) it wasn't due to being PC or anything. He just wanted the next Link to be that color.
At the end of the day though, people tend to be all talk but no show. If the game is good, people will buy it in droves anyway. As was pointed out before, it would put Nintendo in the public spotlight to degrees they haven't seen since the NES boom due to gamer babies causing a huge shitstorm about it, and probably would give the game a lot more traction.
As for my avatar? Nah. It's not from anything. It's just a dragon character I draw a lot. I think a couple of escapists here now my blog though. I can link you to that if your curious to see what they look like in full.
I did think that was the case one time, thinking Link was going to be dark skinned in a game, but I didn't know if I was remembering correctly or not. Thanks for bringing that up.
As changing Link's gender wouldn't be a major change gameplay wise, at least fundamentally, I see it happening if ever on the whim or artistic drive of the director of that particular Zelda game. It does open some possibilities for changes in style of combat and puzzle solving such as reflecting the differences in a females upbringing or fundamental body differences, perhaps being nimbler than regular Link (though of course I know that is not always the case), however the core gameplay would remain much the same regardless of gender.
As such I'm all for it if it ever happens. Heck, I even wouldn't mind if they changed Link's race one game. A change into a Deku or Rito would have a much bigger impact on the gameplay but I'd like that simply for the case of experimenting with the series reincarnation lore. It fascinates me.
As for the idea of gender swapping any fictional character being equally as valid. You have to know that Link is uncommon in the genre in that he's one of few legacy characters. The Link in Legend of Zelda is not the same boy appearing in Link to the Past, Windwaker, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Minish Cap or Skyward Sword. It's a story of reincarnation and recursion and there's nothing in the lore the invalidates the idea of a female child hero taking up the mantle to defend the realm against a recurring threat.
Well apparently a few pages ago there was a reason why lore-wise Link cant be female, because she would be overpowered as #$%^ as she will naturally have the divine goodies rather than splash around in dungeons and beg for divine power like male link.
Sure, why not. Genderbending is one of my favourite things to do with fiction. As long as it's done for fun and not just to push some political agenda, genderbend away! While you're at it, make Zelda a man. It's only fair.
So there are two positions, mostly covered in the OP, that are ruffling my jimmies.
Positions:
It won't change anything, so why do it?
It won't change anything, so why not do it?
Justifications:
Link's design is gender neutral - Link can keep his iconic green tunic, funny hat, brown boots, and blonde hair.
Link's traits are gender neutral - Bravery, Intelligence, calm in a crisis and other endearing things.
The gameplay would remain the same - Link would still go into dungeons, fight monsters, solve puzzles and collect important relics.
At this point positions boil down to personal preferences. Nothing wrong with that.
Problems: The positions focus exclusively on Link.
Although Link's traits and design are neutral, the LoZ universe may not be. The only way to confidently say that a gender swap would have no effect would be to prove that the LoZ treats gender as being insignificant. This would be tough to do.
A more complete argument would look something like:
Given: The LoZ is a long, established series that created a universe with rules and conventions that involve gender.
Positions:
For: Making Link female would be a great opportunity to explore and play with the rules and conventions in LoZ.
This is the coolest example on the forum so far.
Asita said:
My vote is to give one of the Links a Gerudo descendent. Gives a very obviously different character design than just slapping boobs on a character and allows for some other interesting formula changes, such as what kind of equipment is collected, and the playstyle used... And then of course there's the matter of their intrinsic relation to Ganondorf - the Gerudo King himself - giving the story shades of a rebellion much like in the case of Nabooru in Ocarina of Time.
No, because right now it would be near impossible for it to happen without the main character being a mega buxom vixen wrapped in illogical armor protecting only her nipples and crotch area. Nor will it be able to happen without some over sexualization of the character, Bayonetta style. I highly doubt we'd see another Sheik like female hero, or a Samus where she doesn't strip nearly butt-naked and bounce around in clingy blue SciFi Spandex.
In the future, or should she actually be some self-sufficient, bad-ass of a woman, with good ideals, and with no ounce of penis-envy, and whom wears logical armor? Hell yes, I'd be all for that. [by logical, i mean... really, we don't need anymore chainmail bikinis, plate armor thongs, or 2 piece cloth-ribbon outfits. We don't need anymore Kerrigans, Novas, or any other slew of horribly illogically clad female 'heros'
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