Poll: Would you agree to this new law - saving humanity from certain disaster

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cgaWolf

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Apr 16, 2009
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Except corporate greed has been hindering science for half a century now, any technological development that can't be turned into more profits gets snubbed. Even if we get the second coming of Einstein, s/he won't be allowed to get us too far.
I understand where the cynicism is coming from, but it's not accurate without looking at the other side of the coin, and scientific research overall.

It's incredibly hard to predct the effect a scientific discovery will have, which is why (lamentably) the measure of scientists right now is how many papers we publish. Unless you're working in a very applicable field, there's no way to predict where something will end up, or what a new piece of knowledge will cause 20, 40 60 years down the road.

As examples: Schrödingers Quantum Mechanics, or Röntgens discovery of X-Rays

Quantum Mechanics is key to understanding solid state devices such as transistors, without those there aren't any computers. Quantum Electrodynamics leads to lasers. No lasers & no computers = no mp3 players, no BR/DVD/CDs, no internet... the information age as we know it doesn't exist. No X-Rays means no X-Ray scattering techniques, means no understanding of DNA, means no modern biochemistry and no modern alimentary technology. No biosynthetic insulin, no synthetic interferones, biochem quality control of your food, no processed foods, etc.. I'm fairly sure Schrödinger & Röntgen weren't thinking of ordering pizza over the internet, but that's where we ended up.

A company that funds research however doesn't have a century to wait whether the research pays off in a new product. They need results, and preferably faster rather than slower. Thus they go for "easy" things, meaning things close to actually being applicable, or things where a solution can be found in years instead of decades.
Btw that's also the reason why we often get "treatments" instead of "cures". It's not so much that treating is more profitable (it's not necessarily, since it means i get a %age of the marketshare for the 10 years my patent stand, and then have competition; as opposed to 100% marketshare instantly if i had a cure); it's that if i have limited resources and can
a) increase your quality of life & make sure you go on living
OR b) find a cure 20 years down the road when you might be dead;
i'll chose "a" to tide me over until someone figures out "b".

You need incredibly deep pockets to go for just b) for a decade or two without anything you can sell, and even deeper pockets to fund both a & b. Companies will tend to go for whatever doesn't lead to them being bankrupt. No doubt, there's enough jerks in the business (Hi, Mensato), but from personel experience the people working in the pharma industry usually have a higher standard of ethics and adherence to law, than those working in the alimentary corporations.

If you want to have basic research done into fields that aren't immediately remunerable, that leaves universities, governments (and militaries). That's not saying it doesn't come out of corporations (in fact, a ton of it does), but it's often a byproduct for them.

/sidenote end
 

Chris^^

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Mar 11, 2009
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graph 3 explains it best, we'll be fine because we're overdue for a major cataclysm, either manmade or otherwise, to cull back our numbers. Should happen soon, its my prediction for 2012
 

Ace of Spades

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Jul 12, 2008
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I would, since I don't plan on having more than 2 children, so my plans would just happen to coincide with the law.
 

meece

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Apr 15, 2008
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When we reach earths carrying capacity the problem will take care of itself. The only question is if we'll be technologically advanced enough to survive after. Thing is most of the current population growth is in developing 3rd world countries so they're who're going to have the issues not the developed world.

Will make importing/manufacturing stuff one hell of a lot harder but you live and make do. Unless of course, you're dead. If you care so much be prepared to strike out in the countryside and pick up farming. Probably going to a major issue within 2-3 generations max. Will be interesting to see how it ends though.
 

mrblakemiller

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Aug 13, 2010
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LiudvikasT said:
Sonic Doctor said:
LiudvikasT said:
Sonic Doctor said:
No, you have no right to barge in on my life and tell me how many kids I can have.
I want to continue my family name in my branch, so chances are when the time comes, I won't be satisfied until I have a son.
Of course they do. We live on the same planet, we use same resources. I cant simply leave, I'm bound to this piece of rock and as long as we live together your decisions affect me and everyone else. So why should I suffer for the decisions you make. Your DNA is not special, my DNA is not special, if you really want to raise a kid, go and adopt one, at least that way you contribute to society instead of putting burden on it.
Goody that you think you think your family line isn't special. But if I'm going to have children, it will be children I helped create.
Family line is an absurd social construct. Your kid is not more important than any other kid.
Personally I would prefer if no one raised their own biological children, that way being good parents would be purely for societal gain instead of stupid biological impulses.
It doesn't matter if it's an absurd social construct or not. It's generally an accepted theory of human rights that one has the right to procreate with a willing partner. Oh, and those biological impulses are what make children in the first place, so it's probably best we keep them around. There's a lot of sci-fi about people being wiped out by their own apathy. We don't need that.

What I really want to talk about is you saying other people have the right to barge in on a person's life and tell them how many kids they can have. You say people do have that right. My response is, "I have the right to tell people I don't care about them, their feelings, or their imagined stake of the world's resources. If someone wants something from me, they should be prepared to force me on threat of pain or death." In the end, that's all "rights" comes down to: what we let people do before we decide we should forcibly stop them. If you want me to stop having kids, lock and load and come get me. Just know that I intend to be prepared for you.

Just in case someone doesn't get this, none of this is intended to be a threat.
 

Nickolai77

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Apr 3, 2009
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BiscuitTrouser said:
Nickolai77 said:
I wouldn't make laws regarding how many children a state's citizens can have. One, ideologically speaking it's wrong- the state should only make laws to prevent harm. Secondly, practically it's needless.

When a country reaches a certain level of development comparable to Western countries, population growth rates slow and things become more or less sustainable. Countries like Germany and Japan have very little or even negative population growth, and the only reason why the population of the UK and France is increasing is due to immigration.

So really, the answer is to encourage development in the 3rd world and population growth will level out.
Trust me people are always going to have a lot of kids. As long as this persists, the population WILL CRASH. It is 100% inevitable. Unless suddenly by their own violation people stop having as many kids. Which is what this law is enforcing. It might lead to the death of us all (look at worst case scenario) and make our species EXTINCT. I think that is a pretty good need.
Your being sensationalist. People in developed countries have fewer kids than people in developing countries because people in developed countries don't need kids to serve as financial security for when they are old. Most parents in the developed world have about 2-3 kids, some will only have one and some will have none. On average, this means very limited population growth. For instance, look at this pdf and go to page 18 were you will see a graph showing French fertility rates over the last 100 years. French fertility has fell below the replacement level in the mid 1970's.

http://www.prb.org/pdf/PopHandbook_Eng.pdf

So, the way to curb population growth is to get developing countries on their feet and catching up to the West. Read Bonsai's post for further details.







Pistachio101 said:
Nickolai77 said:
I wouldn't make laws regarding how many children a state's citizens can have. One, ideologically speaking it's wrong- the state should only make laws to prevent harm. Secondly, practically it's needless.

When a country reaches a certain level of development comparable to Western countries, population growth rates slow and things become more or less sustainable. Countries like Germany and Japan have very little or even negative population growth, and the only reason why the population of the UK and France is increasing is due to immigration.

So really, the answer is to encourage development in the 3rd world and population growth will level out.
But surely the reason for them being able to sustain their high density of population is through the importation of food. (I don't know this for sure but I assume that places like Japan don't have enough land to produce food for 120,000,000 people). If growth was encouraged in the Third World then I would assume it would be encouraged to move from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing/services economy. If everyone did this then where would the imports of food come from?
European farms actually don't run at full productivity. When they did a few decades ago when common agricultural policy was introduced there was an excess of food production- there where cheese and butter mountains which had to be abandoned because nobody needed it and it couldn't be exported for annoying technical reasons.

If needs be, farming output can be drastically increased- especially if GM was used en-masse- but currently we don't because the developed world meets it's own food needs nicely. With development, countries like India and China move towards manufacturing and services yes, and the amount of labour in agriculture would decline- however food output would continue to rise with the implementation of modern technology and fertilizes. Hence why 3rd world countries moving towards industry isn't a problem.
 

Kakashi on crack

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Aug 5, 2009
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Well, its one thing if people had to kill extra children or something, but being limited to two children is perfectly acceptable in my opinion as it will cause the population to grow at a slower rate.

Though, I personalyl think that I'd deny theory, and say it would drop about 1/4th or 1/2 and then head back up and drop again.
 

Tibike77

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Mar 20, 2008
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Simply limit the number of "birth licenses" per year to the number of people that died the previous year PLUS whatever the desired population increase might be.
Then hold a reverse dutch auction for the purchase, and anybody not happy with the result can abstain from purchasing one. You also can not have more than one purchase per year and no more than X purchases (where X is somewhere between 3 and 5) total.
All raised funds go towards and ONLY towards the education system.

TADA ! Steady population, and slightly better educated too.

NOTE : if any of your children died, you get to have a fresh one for free, and that death is not counted towards the number of lottery tickets.

And yes, this does mean the richer you are the more kids you can afford to have.
I fail to see any problems with that.
 

interspark

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Dec 20, 2009
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i'm fairly sure the government IS planning to lay down a law to this affect, in the year 2020 if i remember correctly
 

AngryMongoose

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Jan 18, 2010
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Don't think it should go into law, but christ, people need to stop fucking like bunnies.

O'course, he in England, I'm pretty sure you already receive more child benefit for your first child than subsequent ones.
 

LiudvikasT

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Jan 21, 2011
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mrblakemiller said:
It doesn't matter if it's an absurd social construct or not. It's generally an accepted theory of human rights that one has the right to procreate with a willing partner. Oh, and those biological impulses are what make children in the first place, so it's probably best we keep them around. There's a lot of sci-fi about people being wiped out by their own apathy. We don't need that.
If we are to talk about sci-fi, assume immortality is discovered tomorrow. You can live forever, but you still need resources to fuel your mechanical bodies. No more death, means every child is increase in worlds population and strain on worlds resources. Which would take precedence your wish to procreate, or someone else wish to live? Our population is not yet at critical level and immortality is mission critical scenario, but still every child needs resources and resources are finite. At what point right to procreate should be abandoned in order to save right to live?

mrblakemiller said:
What I really want to talk about is you saying other people have the right to barge in on a person's life and tell them how many kids they can have. You say people do have that right. My response is, "I have the right to tell people I don't care about them, their feelings, or their imagined stake of the world's resources. If someone wants something from me, they should be prepared to force me on threat of pain or death." In the end, that's all "rights" comes down to: what we let people do before we decide we should forcibly stop them. If you want me to stop having kids, lock and load and come get me. Just know that I intend to be prepared for you.

Just in case someone doesn't get this, none of this is intended to be a threat.
I might be naive, but I don't believe in violence, people should understand that societal needs should be more important than personal wishes. I might not sacrifice my life for the good of a mankind, but having children should and is a privilege, not a right and I do not intend to ever have any.
 

Nuke_em_05

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Mar 30, 2009
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Actually, most developed nations have birthrate less than the replacement rate of 2.1. The rest are just barely above it.

EDIT: Source: The CIA World Factbook.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html
Also, technology has allowed us to produce more food with less space. We leave a lot of land fallow.

So... chillax and worry about something useful?

Like why we produce more than enough food for everyone, but not everyone gets enough. Hint: it has a lot to do with guns and greed, and less to do with too many people.
 

Aizsaule

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Oct 10, 2010
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Even if we colonize mars and double our ability to support humans, we will only delay the problem a little over over 55 years with our current growth.