Poll: Would you mind if your terms of employment were public?

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Bertylicious

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Apr 10, 2012
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I've often thought that the only fair solution to issues such as equal pay for men and women, ludicrous city bonuses, the pay gap between rich and poor and the accountability of senior management is total transparency of remuneration packages.

If all of our contracts of employment were a matter of public record, with bonus schemes, job descriptions and sick pay plans on full display, then issues of inequality in pay would leap to the foreground and would need to be dealt with or explained. Furthermore it could spell an end to inequality between disciplines; an administrator working in a Sales office will currently make more than an administrator working in a Warehouse, even though the work they perform uses the same skills and comprises the same duties.

This wouldn't mean that senior or highly skilled people wouldn't receive better remuneration; merely that the reason that they did would be out in the open.

Natrually the drawback would be an end to the confidentiality of your own terms and conditions as such a measure would need to be applied universally. In my job I already see the T & Cs of everyone in the organisation and I'm not that bothered about money so I'd feel quite blasé about the whole thing, however I appreciate that I'm somewhat abnormal in that so would welcome alternative perspectives.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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I cannot think of any particular reason I would object to having the terms of my employment made publicly available.

In fact, given the collective bargaining system used by many employers here in Australia, I'm pretty sure they already are public. Or at least easily found for anyone who wants to look.
 

lee1287

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Apr 7, 2009
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there's nothing personal about my life in my contract with my employer, so, why not? Maybe people will be nicer if they realise how shitty My pay is? Aha.
 

Bertylicious

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Apr 10, 2012
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lee1287 said:
there's nothing personal about my life in my contract with my employer, so, why not? Maybe people will be nicer if they realise how shitty My pay is? Aha.
In the interests of devil's advocacy, how would you feel if you then found out new staff we being paid even less than you?

Zhukov said:
I cannot think of any particular reason I would object to having the terms of my employment made publicly available.

In fact, given the collective bargaining system used by many employers here in Australia, I'm pretty sure they already are public. Or at least easily found for anyone who wants to look.
In the UK collective bargaining usually results in a pay structure with different grades. The pay structure is then incremented by a flat percentage at the point of review. If your pay structure was fully disclosed either in your contract or at the point of your annual review then I'd suspect you'd know about it.

Again, this is only my experience in the UK but the grades workers are on is usually kept confidential. Pay structures are often criticised as they are percieved as not providing incentives to people to 'stretch' themselves, to go above and beyond, because someone coasting along doing the bare minimum will receive the same increase as someone who busts a gut every day. Do you think that this is true? If so, would you think all staff knowing what grades one another are on would have a positive or negative impact on performance?
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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As long as they keep my personal data out of it such as my social security number or my home adress everything else i will disclose publicly if anyone asked. In fact it is already mostly public consindering i work for government and they use standart contract that they have designed and made public.
 

the_duke_CC

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Feb 4, 2008
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I wouldn't have a problem with my pay and contract details were made public if everyone else's were made public too. As long as my personal details weren't released along with them, I have no issues with that.
 

Cartographer

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Jun 1, 2009
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The major driver for employers not to make things like this public would be the employees finding out that they make less than someone in the same role, elsewhere in the company. It would also highlight just how often the gender/race issue intrudes into things like this when it legally shouldn't; if you're a black-disabled-female office assistant, you can't complain of unfair remuneration if you don't know how much your co-workers make.

Frankly, I'm all for it. Pay and especially tax-paid (and the reasons for not), should be a matter of public record. Equal pay for equal work.
 

kasperbbs

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Dec 27, 2009
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I don't want people knowing how much i make. Some of my coworkers can be whiny bitches at times so there would be some bickering over the fact that i make more money than some random lazy loudmouth.
 

lechat

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Dec 5, 2012
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nope.
i'm massively overpaid for my job sector and skill requirements and i'm sure if my coworkers knew how much i earn in overtime i'd be strung up.
 

RoonMian

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Mar 5, 2011
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I live in a country and I'm going to work in a field of master labour contracts (I hope I translated the term "Manteltarifvertrag" bzw. "Flächentarifvertrag" correctly) so after taking an educated guess what wage bracket I'm in you pretty much already know the terms of my employment. Just like anybody else's in most industrial and big services sectors here in Germany.
 

Bertylicious

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RoonMian said:
I live in a country and I'm going to work in a field of master labour contracts (I hope I translated the term "Manteltarifvertrag" bzw. "Flächentarifvertrag" correctly) so after taking an educated guess what wage bracket I'm in you pretty much already know the terms of my employment. Just like anybody else's in most industrial and big services sectors here in Germany.
Actually I know very little about any employment practices outside of the UK and would be particularly interested to learn more about the German model. I wouldn't ask about your own personal situation, that would be most intrusive, but I would be very grateful if you could expand on how things are done in Germany.
 

Avaholic03

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May 11, 2009
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I'm pretty sure most of that information (at least salary) was among the things disclosed when I bought a house. So I don't care. My salary and benefits are pretty much in line with (although slightly on the low side of) average for my experience and qualifications. And it's not like I care what other people think anyway.
 

Panorama

Carry on Jeeves
Dec 7, 2010
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I have no problem with people knowing what i earn etc.. so yeah full disclosure is fine by me.
 

william12123

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Oct 22, 2008
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This is a tetchy issue. While it would in theory act as an incentive to equal pay for equal work (and this is in general, not in the male/female issues). For example, two workers may have the same job description, and one is let's say 50% more productive than the other. If only the money figures are released, and the more productive individual makes more, it may seem unequal despite the fact that the other was more productive. Thus, more details need to be given to truly observe wether it's fair or not.

While that might be simple in certain jobs (for example: industrial production, you can easily quantify productivity), it is not for more "creative" or flexible jobs that have hard to quantify objectives. This might not be too problematic in a small company where everyone know each-other. In a large corporate structure (where politics are very strong), it can cause a headache for management that wants to reward someone who did a good (but hard to quantify) job. You gave a good example with your administrator note OP; just because the jobs have the same base requirements, doesnt mean it represents equal work. It's damnably hard to quantify these things in a manner that appears fair.

My overall answer would be "this question needs more looking into". It's not a bad idea, but you need to be careful of how you release the information.

Plus, privacy. I dont necessarily want my salary to be accessible to a large audience, since it can spread and make identity theft more easy.
 

Esotera

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May 5, 2011
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I would care if the information could be used to blacklist me from credit or other financial things like insurance. Otherwise I can't see the big deal. This measure would help equal pay a lot, reveal stupid NDA clauses that prevent legitimate whistleblowing, and hopefully highlight how incredibly high the pay of certain professions is.
 

RoonMian

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Mar 5, 2011
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Bertylicious said:
RoonMian said:
I live in a country and I'm going to work in a field of master labour contracts (I hope I translated the term "Manteltarifvertrag" bzw. "Flächentarifvertrag" correctly) so after taking an educated guess what wage bracket I'm in you pretty much already know the terms of my employment. Just like anybody else's in most industrial and big services sectors here in Germany.
Actually I know very little about any employment practices outside of the UK and would be particularly interested to learn more about the German model. I wouldn't ask about your own personal situation, that would be most intrusive, but I would be very grateful if you could expand on how things are done in Germany.
I can't really talk about "the German model" as I don't know if such a thing actually exists and if it does I don't know jack about it. :D

I'm on my way to become a bachelor of automotive engineering (FH) and I am a member in the Industrie-Gewerkschaft Metall so what I know about stuff here is mainly seen through IG Metall glasses. I'm a bit biased there, I'm a convinced member myself, my father is ombudsman and my uncle is a high functionary.

The IG Metall (industry labour union metal) exists in its present shape since 1949 and is pretty much the largest labour union in the world, far more than 2 million members and it covers the huge automobile sector in Germany, machinery manufacturing, electric manufacturing, wood manufacturing, plastic manufacturing, textile manufacturing, IT and communications. It has a war chest billions of Euros deep and it's a major political force to reckon with showing engagement in lots of fields like anti-fascism, tolerance, equality, feminism etc. Together with other strong German labour unions like Ver.Di for the service sector, IG Bau for construction, IG Chemie for chemical and pharma it forms the DGB, the German labour union Federation.

You see, labour unions have a strong tradition in Germany for almot 150 years now (Bismarck made all his famous social reforms actually to combat them, taking the wind out of their sails because he was so reactionary. Luckily he failed.) and they established themselves as a vital part of society and one of the main venues with which ordinary people can influence the economic landscape of Germany outside of political elections (which sometimes convey very little feeling of influence). Actually, unions lobbied for a law that regulates how employees can influence the course of a corporation in the first place. Also laws about workplace safety, equal pay, employee protection, anti-discrimination, the list goes on and on.

While the German system is far from perfect I'm very grateful for it being there because here labour unions mainly act as a counterweight to short term focused corporate interests (shareholder value and all that crap) with their main goal being sustainability first and huge advantages for the employees second (unlike for example the very strong unions in France who are much more belligerent). For example one of the reasons why German manufacturing managed to come out so well out of the global financial crisis was unions, mainly the IG Metall, toning down their interests for the greater good, like cutting their demands for higher wages and playing a major part in the German system of short-time working. Another example is that usually labour unions demand a raise in wages when a new master contract is negotiated that equals the inflation plus the raise in productivity. But the IG Metall every year is more than ready to lower their demands in wages in exchange for employers guaranteeing jobs and guaranteeing to create more jobs. You could say that unions as a whole, as a collective of unions, don't just look out for their members but for society as a whole.

Of course there are also downsides. For example when very small, specialised unions like the union of train conductors (GdL), pilots (Cockpit), physicians (Marburger Bund) etc. go rogue and pretty much shut down whole aspects of public life it gets sticky. Especially, if like in the case of the GdL (my mom works in the German cargo railway company) it's not actually about the good of the workers or the justice among the employees, but about the personal careers of a few people in charge.

Basically, what happens is that every year the unions and the employers meet and decide together what's going to happen in regards to wages, creation or rationalising of jobs etc. How they do that I touched on earlier but mainly what unions want is more money for employees as their productivity rises year after year and to balance inflation so that at the bottom line your hands' work stays at the same value relatively speaking. They're also interested in keeping people in employment in general and keeping sustainable, keeping quality high, keeping factories profitable in the long run etc. For example, the IG Metall here in Germany right now has been fighting tooth and nail with General Motors about keeping two large automobile factories (and everything that relates to that) open here in Germany since the financial crisis because of GM's mismanagement in the first place. I'm sure you've noticed that whole struggle GM has with it's European brands Vauxhall, Opel and Saab (R.I.P.).

If employers don't move in the negotiations (as capitalists are wont to do) then Unions can go on strike to enforce their demands. Striking though is actually heavily regulated in Germany. A strike has to be democratically elected inside the union by law (Urabstimmung), there are circumstances where strikes or forceful behaviour by employers are temporary or absolutely forbidden (Friedenspflicht, "duty of peace") and political strikes like general strikes are generally prohibited in Germany. Also unions need lots of money because while on strike they pay your salary, not your employer, logically.

Negotiations aren't only held on such big levels like whole unions negotiating with whole industry sectors but there is also a system of co-determination between work councils and single companies. It's also heavily regulated there what each side is allowed to do to ensure a balance between the interests of employers and employees. For example if you have 5 employees those employees have the right to elect one work councillor who then enjoys special protection (you can't just fire a work councillor for example if he has the audacity to criticise you using a whip to motivate your workers).


Damn, this turned out to be one wall of text and I think I edited it a dozen times... Errrh... TL;DR: Just try to remember every horror story you've heard from the USA about how employees are treated there then the reason stuff like that does not happen in Germany (if it actually doesn't) is because of the very strong unions.
 

L. Declis

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Apr 19, 2012
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Honestly? No, I don't want it public.

To those who are stupidly rich, it will honestly make no difference. What it will do is start creating yet another area where people are judged, and frankly, pay is far too wild to be judged by.

Your country, your sector, the colour of your skin, your gender, the opportunities given to you in life, the opportunities by your position in society.

Pay, in today's economy, is judged on the above more than your ability to work hard. We all know PhD's who work in Subway and that kind of thing.
 

Scarim Coral

Jumped the ship
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Oct 29, 2010
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I guess so? I mean I on the minium wages and the only annoying thing about working for this company is that we don't get paid during our holidays unless you're the manager and had worked for a long time. If we still want to get paid on that week then you still got to come into work before and after your holiday.
 

Artina89

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Oct 27, 2008
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I wouldn't be comfortable with someone knowing my terms of employment, but I think that mainly stems from the fact that I am quite a private person and I don't see how it is anyone's business how much I earn.
 

dyre

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Mar 30, 2011
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What an awful idea.

The issue of inequality of pay is already in the foreground. It's not like people don't know that CEOs are getting paid millions in bonuses...there's just not much political will to do anything about it. What you're proposing doesn't help the issue at all; people already know that CEOs get paid a ton and part-timers get shit on. All this does is create more tension inside the workplace because "oh my God, can you believe John gets paid more than I do? All he does is sit around all day!"

I for one would not like my salary and benefits to be made public. The last thing I need is for some colleague to get jealous that my end-of-year bonus was $1000 higher than his even though he "swears he worked harder." This may surprise you, but people don't often compare themselves with mega-million CEOs...they most often compare themselves with their direct colleagues of similar rank and pay. The average guy might get upset about a CEO's high pay in an abstract sort of way, but he'll much more likely get upset about the fact that Bob or Mary in the next cubicle got a slightly higher bonus. People are shitty that way.