Poll: You're pregnant. What do you do?

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Silvianoshei

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May 26, 2011
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Mouse One said:
I'll start off with saying that I consider anyone in pediatric oncology pretty much a saint. And despite the "we're all black belts in martial arts on the internet", I completely believe that you're a pre-doc student in epidemiology.

Given that, I wonder at the above statement. Just googling up the CDC statistics, in 2000 (latest year I found) there were 857,000 or so reported legal abortions, with 11 deaths from complications, or roughly 1.3/100000 My google-fu failed me on maternal mortality rates for that year, but in the 2007, it was 12.7 per 100,000 births.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm
http://www.hrsa.gov/ourstories/mchb75th/mchb75maternalmortality.pdf

While statistics can lie, seriously, I do think a tenfold greater mortality rate for childbirth versus abortion makes it hard to defend the notion that abortion is more dangerous for a pregnant woman, at least physically.

If we're talking about psychological effects, again, I'm wondering what studies you're referring to. In late 2011 the National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health (UK data here) looked at 44 studies on the subject and found that while women who have unplanned pregnancies were more likely to experience mental health issues, whether or not they had an abortion didn't affect that rate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16094906

Again, statistics are statistics, and each number in a study is a person-- fwiw, an oncologist once told my wife and I that on one of the worst days of our lives. And there's a vast number of biased studies on both sides of the abortion debate, so perhaps it's best to look at all of them with suspicion. Objectivity is an ideal, not a reality, after all. That said, I think sytematic reviews of the literature by various government health agencies is about as good as it gets, and those don't support the notion of "in in doubt, carry to term"-- unless we bring religious/philisophical objections into play.
I'm no saint, believe me. I can only treat. That's one of the tragic things about childhood cancer, there is no one cause. People point to mutations like PHOX2B, ALK, and 1p SRD deletion, but those account for a few percentage points. It makes you realize that until we develop true gene therapy (in utero I might add), childhood cancer cannot be cured. So much of it comes from the natural variation within the meiotic process. For adults that's less true, only about 20% is genetic, but that means that there will always be a baseline level, even if hypothetically, people stopped engaging in high risk behavior. Anyway, back on topic.

I really appreciate you bringing this up, because it allows me to clarify my point. I'm not looking at mortality data, because I understand that there is a higher risk of death associated with having a 10 pound child come out of a hole that doesn't seem like it should allow for that. I'm looking at comparing the physiological and psychological affects of having a child from a pregenancy and having an abortion. When I said it mattered on an individual basis, I meant in every category. Did the woman intend have the child? Did the woman bring a partner with her to the abortion clinic? What are the woman's beliefs on abortion? Does she have feelings of guilt? What is her social support structure? I could go on but you get the idea. I think that a mothers psychological health is just as important as her physical health if she wants to raise children in the future or have healthy relationships. Physiologically speaking abortion is considered "low-risk", relative to other medical procedures. It does bring a slightly higher chance of sterility and future birth complications, but to be honest, we just haven't studied these in a cohort of any capacity, so I can't be sure of how significant these are without other studies to back them up. We do know that some women are at higher risk for these complications, especially African-American women, and women who have sought multiple abortions. There is still a lot of ambiguity as to the long term effects on female health after an abortion.

Which leads me, again, to stress my point. I'm not saying "Never have abortions.", or "Everyone should be able to get an abortion if they want one." I'm saying that people need to become educated about their own bodies, and how to take care of them, as well as the risks of any medical procedures they might be undertaking. People should not consider abortions as an excuse not to use a condom or birth control. Doctors aren't perfect beings who can cast "heal" or in this case "abort". Every procedure has risk. Nothing is less risky than just not getting pregnant in the first place if you don't want a kid. If you don't want a kid, but you can't be bothered to put on a condom and can't or won't use birth control, they maybe you should avoid having sex.

To your point about literature bias, yeah, no kidding. This field is filled with it, since a lot of our data is based on interviews, and many people have an agenda. There are plenty of us who, like me and my collegues, just want to keep people informed and healthy. This is why internal meta-analyses are the best way to form your own opinions on things. You can weight each study however you like, and penalize studies in their contribution to your overall Odds Ratio for having biases. Obviously, its a highly skilled endeavor, and two people looking at the same data could come up with different conclusions (another problem). I continue to stand by my point, it varies incredibly on an individual basis, but if you're not expecting complications and can handle a child, but just don't want to, I'd advise you to have the child because of how much we don't know about the long term effects of abortion.

There is some literature about increased risk of breast cancer after termination of first pregnancy (I read it in NCI, I can look up the reference if you like) (makes sense, since there is blast tissue left in the breast which will never develop) and future birth complications, but in my opinion it isn't conclusive enough to say absolutely yes, since, again, there are no cohorts for it and there is no grant money for anything that isn't a treatment RCT (which is ok for me, but very annoying for the rest of my non-cancer studying colleagues).

Quick fact though, just so I don't seem anti-pregnancy: your chances of breast cancer decrease sharply with increasing parity (number of children). The more time you spend pregnant and/or breastfeeding, the healthier you and your child are overall. Unless you have HIV...sorry I'm rambling.

If you need some good literature to read, I can give you some references, but you might not have access to them without paying, unless you are attached to a university with journal subscriptions.
 

Mouse One

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Jan 22, 2011
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Silvianoshei said:
If you need some good literature to read, I can give you some references, but you might not have access to them without paying, unless you are attached to a university with journal subscriptions.
Thanks much for the in depth reply. Go ahead with the references-- I don't have alumni access these days (I'm no doctoral candidate, just an et al more years ago than I care to admit), but I've found that you can often get a hold of the abstracts.
 

Silvianoshei

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May 26, 2011
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Mouse One said:
Thanks much for the in depth reply. Go ahead with the references-- I don't have alumni access these days (I'm no doctoral candidate, just an et al more years ago than I care to admit), but I've found that you can often get a hold of the abstracts.
I'll leave these here for everyone to peruse at their leisure (if you can). I dunno if I'd recommend basing anything on abstracts, I like to to look at study design (exposure measurement, control selection etc.), and they don't usually contain anything about study limitations. I'd hate to encourage misinformation. Usually university libraries have print copies of these journals. Going there to look these up is a better, if more investing, option.

Induced abortion as an independent risk factor for breast cancer: a comprehensive review and meta-analysis, J Epidemiology and Community Health, J Brind et al., 1996, 50:481-496

To meta-analyse or not to meta-analyse: abortion, birth and mental health. Br J Psychiatry. Kendall T, Bird V, Cantwell R, Taylor C. 2012 Jan;200(1):12-4. (A bit high-level, but gives a good explanation of what to watch out for when looking at studies on abortion, and in my opinion and excellent point on the individuality of treatment)

I can't find the other ones right now, but I will message you (and anyone else who wants them) with them when I do. Pubmed always seems to hide articles when I want to find them.
 

CyanideSandwich

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Aug 5, 2010
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Commonly Confused said:
CyanideSandwich said:
Wow.. Genuinely shocked that most people chose abortion. I'd keep because it's my responsibility. I mean, what kind of message would abortions send? "Make a mistake, just get a quick fix!" instead of "Make a mistake, deal with the responsibilities and consequences"?

I get that this is human life we're talking about here, but surely the message is the same?

EDIT: Hundredth post! Yay?
I would have agreed with that point not too long ago.
But there are so many people who literally cannot afford supporting another life. It is not always a matter of, "Oops I made a mistake please suck it out."
An abortion is not a carefree process; there is a lot of emotional stress that goes along with it.

As for carrying a child to term and then putting it up for adoption, look at the numbers. Children are being dumped in orphanages and adoption centers and they are not getting the attention they need and deserve.


It is not fair to bring a child into the world when it is not wanted. That is my belief.

Assuming you have the financial resources to care for it however (as your commitment is not to be doubted), I fully commend your choice.
You know what? I whole-heartedly agree with you. Seeing posts like "Just abort it and let me get on with my life" made me completely forget about the financial side of things. Well done, sir (or madam).
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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IckleMissMayhem said:
omega 616 said:
You do have the ability to walk away from the situation, abortion is your way to walk away
Very easy thing to say for someone who has fuck-all chance of having to make that decision!!
So you ignore my entire post except for one line.

Well it is an easy choice, to have the abortion or not. Just have to make an objective choice about whether bringing a baby into your life is best for the baby or just 'cos your motherly instincts have kicked in.

I think there is too many emotional decisions made and not enough pro and con lists. Instead of the attitude "I will get by and work my balls off" why not have the mind set of "I will set my life up as best as I can before even thinking of having a baby. If I do get pregnant I will abort for the sake of it".
 

Appleshampoo

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Sep 27, 2010
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Me and my current girlfriend got pregnant over a year ago now, totally unplanned. In fact, a child was the last thing we wanted. We weren't in good jobs, didn't have a place of our own and were totally unprepared. Also, we weren't actually together, we were just having grown up sleep overs all the time.

However, we created the life so we felt it was unfair to have an abortion.

So we got together, got our own place and even though we're poor and tired all the time we're still damn good parents. Our son has everything he needs, has a loving home and likes to round house kick me in the face in the morning to get me out of bed.

So there's my answer, I'd stand by and be a good Dad, even if the kid wasn't planned.
 

userwhoquitthesite

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Jul 23, 2009
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Find out who the fuck wrote me into an MPREG fanfic. whores, i will end you!

but if i were a woman, with my same thoughts and ideals, I'd abort. As a man, i'd encourage the girl to take the same route. I dont want kids for now, but I see no reason I cant fuck someone in the meantime.

If sex wasnt meant for pleasure, it shouldnt be pleasurable.

then again, i specifically take measures against possible pregnancy in the first place
 

bauke67

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Apr 8, 2011
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Mortai Gravesend said:
bauke67 said:
Let's just pretend I'm a woman for now. I can either have it aborted, or I can just sacrifice 9 months of my for that baby's entire LIFE. You can always have it adopted after that.
Doesn't that sound simple enough?
Hell yeah. I abort it before it's got a life, win-win. Or well win-nothing since I win and it wasn't a being with an agenda or consciousness.
True, but it could've been. If you smash your TV with a baseball bat before the movie starts, your still not gonna see the movie.
 

Hosker

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Aug 13, 2010
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Putting aside my gender, I would get an abortion: the quickest and easiest option.
 

shadowstriker86

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Feb 12, 2009
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Abortion, then enjoy life. my gf and i took a page from patton oswalts book and decided to have an invisible baby and call him "10 hours sleep a night"
 

bauke67

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Apr 8, 2011
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Liquidacid23 said:
bauke67 said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
bauke67 said:
Let's just pretend I'm a woman for now. I can either have it aborted, or I can just sacrifice 9 months of my for that baby's entire LIFE. You can always have it adopted after that.
Doesn't that sound simple enough?
Hell yeah. I abort it before it's got a life, win-win. Or well win-nothing since I win and it wasn't a being with an agenda or consciousness.
True, but it could've been. If you smash your TV with a baseball bat before the movie starts, your still not gonna see the movie.
that might be a good thing tho if it was a bad movie
You probably mean that you're not feeling like watching a movie, not that it's a bad movie. But you're forgetting that movies want to be seen, and that only your tv can recieve that channel.
 

The Dutchess

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Feb 24, 2011
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I'd be extremely angry with myself and upset because I really, really don't want children. But I don't think I have any good reason NOT to keep the child and the guilt of abortion would be too much. I mean I'm 22, just started a good job, have a supportive family, I could look after it. I just hope I'd be able to love it and not resent it. I wouldn't give it up for adoption either, like I said, there's no reason to do so and I'd always wonder about them and want to know how they are.
Also it means that I'd be bound to the child's father forever and much as I like my new boyfriend (note new - ie 2 weeks) I can't imagine the horror of going straight from being fresh sweethearts to parents ...
Ugh I'm freaking myself out here.
 

Philol

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Nov 7, 2011
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If I was a woman and had planned to have a child then I would obviously keep it, but if I hadn't then I would more than likely have an abortion.
 

FamoFunk

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Mar 10, 2010
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Keep. I'm emotionally, physically and financially able to raise a child.

I'm already proving it.
 

Raika

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Jul 31, 2011
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I don't owe anybody anything. Falcon Punch me while worthless cavemen like Rick Santorum still don't have the final word in this country.

I'd love to hurt that man.
 

Nigh Invulnerable

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Jan 5, 2009
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Crenelate said:
So after the interesting 'abortions are against women's rights' post a little while ago, it got me thinking, what would I do if I got pregnant?
So calling the ladies of The Escapist forums (I know we are relatively few and far between): what would your ultimate response be? I know this is a pretty serious topic, and this is in NO WAY intended to be a thread for making judgments on people's beliefs, decisions or choice to have sex. I'm really just interested to see what peoples decisions would be and why.

As for me? I'm still not sure. I'm in a long term and very stable relationship and we're both from supportive middle-class backgrounds. However, I'm a third year at uni, looking to do a masters with no immediate job prospects or savings. I'm not religious and I think at this point in my life my parents would probably encourage me to have an abortion, and that would be my first logical thought, as I know that neither of us are ready or willing to have a child yet. However, the thought of getting rid of the child of the person I want to spend the rest of my life with is... well, pretty horrible. For the same reason I don't think I could go through with adoption.

So what are your thoughts? Boys are very welcome to chip in too - after all, you're involved too!

EDIT: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we stop with the pointless 'I'm a man, I can't be pregnant LOL!' comments. Getting old, guys. You will note, I did actually address this to ladies, with the expectation that men were capable of saying something constructive.
My son was a complete surprise to my wife and I despite using protection, and he's now 15 months old, and completely adorable. We never would have considered abortion, but we were totally not prepared when we found out we were expecting. Luckily we have some family in the area and lots of friends who have been able to help babysit him while I work and my wife goes to college. I think if you and your man are in love, but using protection as you're not ready for a kid yet, but get pregnant anyway you'll find some pretty crazy hormones and emotions quickly overcome you. My son is tons of fun and I wouldn't trade having him in my life for anything.