Poll: Zoomed Hipfire vs ADS: Which do you prefer?

[Saelune]

Hipfire is usually terrible in FPS games (since ya know not aiming makes hitting things difficult). But it is...how you shoot in most 3rd person games.

Um...as the vast majority of FPS games, since the genre's inception, have used hip-fire-style aiming mechanics, how can you say it's usually 'terrible'? Quake, for example, has a plethora of pin-point accurate weaponry and it doesn't use an ADS system at all.

How many 3rd person shooters even have ADS?

Not all but some do. Gears of War does, for example.

Old 90's shooters had auto-aim up the wazoo to make up for it. Shooting the wall below an enemy in DOOM to shoot them on their ledge. Those games werent exactly trying to be realistic in any sense of the word.

Gears of War didnt do it until like, the 3rd game though, beyond Snipers which are all about being accurate. But in Gears, shotgun is king for a reason.

How many 3rd person shooters even have ADS?

Doesn't PUBG's third-person mode still put you into first-person ADS when you aim?

Never played it, so I dont know.

 

[Squilookle]

True, there?s no way to accurately simulate ADS and FoV on a 2D screen, but accurately hitting everything short of scope distance with hipfire isn?t well-realized either.

It wasn't a problem for the genre for the years upon years hipfire existed before ADS reared its head.

I've played all kinds of shooters and there hasn't been one yet that can convince me that blocking off 1/6th of your screen is a better system than crosshairs were. It's not more realistic, it's not more immersive, and most games only force ADS because they know crosshairs would be easier to use and more intuitive if included as an option as well.

How many 3rd person shooters even have ADS?

Doesn't PUBG's third-person mode still put you into first-person ADS when you aim?

It has both, with ADS triggered with a right mouse tap, whereas zoomed in crosshair is by holding RMB

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I still don?t understand why ADS itself is more to blame for skewing things like accuracy than the clueless developers themselves. It?s already been shown that even a well designed console shooter can do hipfire justice even without aim assist, so it shouldn?t be an issue. What does make it an issue is the continuously futile attempt at cross platform parity of mulitplatform development, which will never happen anyways due to KB/Mouse to gamepad disparity. Just have a server room for each control input if it?s that bad.

To bring back the driving comparison, some people like using cockpit view, even though it blocks off 80% of your view and still isn?t very realistic. Doesn?t make it a non viable option though, and devs shouldn?t have to handicap other viewpoints or buff car handling in it to offset any disadvantages. Wheel use vs gamepad use is another factor that skews it even further, similar to KB/Mouse vs gamepad with copious aim assist.

It?s ridiculous. I myself use hood view because it offers the best playability:immersion ratio. No reason the same can?t be done for shooters if devs knew what the hell they were doing.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

ADS is objectively more realistic because in the reality of life when I'm intending on accurately aiming with a gun, I'm going to damn well ADS it; the majestic view of the pavement, grass or whatever Mural I'm standing on be damned. It's more fun, realistic and visually pleasing. ADS all day every day all over my body and in every orifice please

 

[Vigormortis]

Old 90's shooters had auto-aim up the wazoo to make up for it. Shooting the wall below an enemy in DOOM to shoot them on their ledge. Those games werent exactly trying to be realistic in any sense of the word.

Doom didn't have auto-aim. The 'shooting up ledges' was an affect of the way the game drew 3D. It wasn't actually a 3D engine. It was modeled in 2D. So there was no looking up and down because there was literally no up or down.

See here:

And most old shooters actually didn't have auto-aim. You only really started seeing it show up when more and more shooters were moving towards a keyboard and mouse setup for free aim instead of non-free aim. And, even then, it was far from ubiquitous.

Gears of War didnt do it until like, the 3rd game though, beyond Snipers which are all about being accurate. But in Gears, shotgun is king for a reason.

Even so, that doesn't refute my point. And it shows that even you are aware of TPS games that use ADS mechanics.

 

[Saelune]

Old 90's shooters had auto-aim up the wazoo to make up for it. Shooting the wall below an enemy in DOOM to shoot them on their ledge. Those games werent exactly trying to be realistic in any sense of the word.

Doom didn't have auto-aim. The 'shooting up ledges' was an affect of the way the game drew 3D. It wasn't actually a 3D engine. It was modeled in 2D. So there was no looking up and down because there was literally no up or down.

See here:

And most old shooters actually didn't have auto-aim. You only really started seeing it show up when more and more shooters were moving towards a keyboard and mouse setup for free aim instead of non-free aim. And, even then, it was far from ubiquitous.

Gears of War didnt do it until like, the 3rd game though, beyond Snipers which are all about being accurate. But in Gears, shotgun is king for a reason.

Even so, that doesn't refute my point. And it shows that even you are aware of TPS games that use ADS mechanics.

Whatever its called, 'aiming' in old shooters isnt the same as it is now.

And yeah, some games breaking the rules doesnt change that usually third person shooters dont have ADS. My main point isnt that third person shooters -never- have ADS.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I still don?t understand why ADS itself is more to blame for skewing things like accuracy than the clueless developers themselves. It?s already been shown that even a well designed console shooter can do hipfire justice even without aim assist, so it shouldn?t be an issue. What does make it an issue is the continuously futile attempt at cross platform parity of mulitplatform development, which will never happen anyways due to KB/Mouse to gamepad disparity. Just have a server room for each control input if it?s that bad.

I play against really good controller users frequently in Max Payne 3. I don't think there's any need to separate the players or give the controller users advantages. If you can't keep up with mouse users, switch to a mouse or play something else.

To bring back the driving comparison, some people like using cockpit view, even though it blocks off 80% of your view and still isn?t very realistic. Doesn?t make it a non viable option though, and devs shouldn?t have to handicap other viewpoints or buff car handling in it to offset any disadvantages. Wheel use vs gamepad use is another factor that skews it even further, similar to KB/Mouse vs gamepad with copious aim assist.

It?s ridiculous. I myself use hood view because it offers the best playability:immersion ratio. No reason the same can?t be done for shooters if devs knew what the hell they were doing.

I don't mind driver's views. Unlike with ADS, the center of the picture is clear and open. You can see the road.

Spoiler

As far as obstruction goes, there is typically far less in an ADS shooter than an interior driving viewpoint.

 

[Vigormortis]

Whatever its called, 'aiming' in old shooters isnt the same as it is now.

How so? The way you'd aim in Quake is identical to how you aim in, say, Left 4 Dead or Halo or Unreal. I really don't get this comment.

And yeah, some games breaking the rules doesnt change that usually third person shooters dont have ADS. My main point isnt that third person shooters -never- have ADS.

"Breaking the rules"? What rules? What are you talking about?

You can't just admit you were wrong on this point?

 

[Saelune]

Whatever its called, 'aiming' in old shooters isnt the same as it is now.

How so? The way you'd aim in Quake is identical to how you aim in, say, Left 4 Dead or Halo or Unreal. I really don't get this comment.

And yeah, some games breaking the rules doesnt change that usually third person shooters dont have ADS. My main point isnt that third person shooters -never- have ADS.

"Breaking the rules"? What rules? What are you talking about?

You can't just admit you were wrong on this point?

They are not the same. I have played alot of DOOM, Halo and L4D, they are not the same.

'Rules' as in, what is expected of a genre. If I said 'literally all third person games have the exact same style of shooting' Id be wrong, but I didnt. Most dont have ADS. Some do, but most dont, and the ones that do are newer than older.

 

[Saelune]

Ya know, when you're aiming down a sight, you're supposed to be looking a your target, particularly in that small area where your bullet will shoot at, so I dont really see why the gun blocking a large portion of your screen is really relevant. Im pretty sure if I was aiming a real gun so intently, much of my vision would also be obscured.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Spoiler

I still don?t understand why ADS itself is more to blame for skewing things like accuracy than the clueless developers themselves. It?s already been shown that even a well designed console shooter can do hipfire justice even without aim assist, so it shouldn?t be an issue. What does make it an issue is the continuously futile attempt at cross platform parity of mulitplatform development, which will never happen anyways due to KB/Mouse to gamepad disparity. Just have a server room for each control input if it?s that bad.

I play against really good controller users frequently in Max Payne 3. I don't think there's any need to separate the players or give the controller users advantages. If you can't keep up with mouse users, switch to a mouse or play something else.

To bring back the driving comparison, some people like using cockpit view, even though it blocks off 80% of your view and still isn?t very realistic. Doesn?t make it a non viable option though, and devs shouldn?t have to handicap other viewpoints or buff car handling in it to offset any disadvantages. Wheel use vs gamepad use is another factor that skews it even further, similar to KB/Mouse vs gamepad with copious aim assist.

It?s ridiculous. I myself use hood view because it offers the best playability:immersion ratio. No reason the same can?t be done for shooters if devs knew what the hell they were doing.

I don't mind driver's views. Unlike with ADS, the center of the picture is clear and open. You can see the road.

Spoiler

As far as obstruction goes, there is typically far less in an ADS shooter than an interior driving viewpoint.

But this pic proves my earlier point. Red dot sights are so common now because the devs KNOW how limiting ADS is. Iron sights are still more common, though.

I can see what's right ahead of me better over a dashboard. Also, your pic has a big sun protector or advertising plate on the top of the windshield, which isn't typical. Are dashboards typically that high when you're driving? I haven't driven for a long time.

Is that first pic even from a game? The terrain looks exquisite.

The second one doesn?t look very restricting, at least by contrast.

I don?t understand why having ADS effectively ruins shooters. Hip Fire shouldn?t have to change because of it, and it should just be there as an extra option for more distant targets (farther than hip fire accuracy range but closer than scope). The decrease in peripheral vision and movement speed are trade offs for better grouping and more precise aiming. You simply wouldn?t use it in a situation where you need the former more. It adds some depth to a genre that's already dead simple. The weapon doesn?t have to take up half the screen either.

Spoiler: Crysis simple iron sights:

DoF and FoV can also be adjusted as they should with any shooter, at least on PC. I?ve never had a problem using either view in Crysis depending on the enemy?s position. The only annoying part was there only being a toggle function between the two instead of just holding/releasing RMB.

As for the dash clutter I?m sure it depends on the car, but still there?s a lot more wasted space there from a gameplay perspective than any ADS shooter should need.

 

[TheFinish]

Ya know, when you're aiming down a sight, you're supposed to be looking a your target, particularly in that small area where your bullet will shoot at, so I dont really see why the gun blocking a large portion of your screen is really relevant. Im pretty sure if I was aiming a real gun so intently, much of my vision would also be obscured.

Not obscured, per se, but given that you have to focus on the sights to aim well, your peripheral vision is toast. And that's just with iron sights, with an actual scope, ho boy! Depending on the make and power, you might not even see your whole target, let alone anything around you.

Snippy

Just FYI, the links you posted are broken. Apparently you can't hyperlink to that site.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Ya know, when you're aiming down a sight, you're supposed to be looking a your target, particularly in that small area where your bullet will shoot at, so I dont really see why the gun blocking a large portion of your screen is really relevant. Im pretty sure if I was aiming a real gun so intently, much of my vision would also be obscured.

Not obscured, per se, but given that you have to focus on the sights to aim well, your peripheral vision is toast. And that's just with iron sights, with an actual scope, ho boy! Depending on the make and power, you might not even see your whole target, let alone anything around you.

Snippy

Just FYI, the links you posted are broken. Apparently you can't hyperlink to that site.

Which post was it? I had to change the tweakguide to url because it wouldn?t display img tags.

 

[TheFinish]

Ya know, when you're aiming down a sight, you're supposed to be looking a your target, particularly in that small area where your bullet will shoot at, so I dont really see why the gun blocking a large portion of your screen is really relevant. Im pretty sure if I was aiming a real gun so intently, much of my vision would also be obscured.

Not obscured, per se, but given that you have to focus on the sights to aim well, your peripheral vision is toast. And that's just with iron sights, with an actual scope, ho boy! Depending on the make and power, you might not even see your whole target, let alone anything around you.

Snippy

Just FYI, the links you posted are broken. Apparently you can't hyperlink to that site.

Which post was it? I had to change the tweakguide to url because it wouldn?t display img tags.

That one, precisely, it says HOTLINKING BLOCKED when you try to access it.

If I were you I'd reupload them to imgur to post them. It's what I do and it's never let me down.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Hmm, odd. The url tags didn?t do that for me. Anyways, fixed and thanks for the heads up.

Yeah I love imgur but the internet sure seems to be getting less convenient lately. I couldn?t even find a decent comparison on ?google images? without it returning a buttload of youtube thumbnails and other irrelevant share suggestions. Top it off with the nightmare that is being limited to mobile computing away from home, when every apostrophe gets changed to a ? on this site when editing a post and I?m ready to have a drink.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

^^ Yeah those developers are doing it wrong. All wrong.

*Trump voice* ?Sad.?