Polygamy

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Housebroken Lunatic

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Draconalis said:
I disagree, but I'm not going to argue the point.
So you disagree with the OBJECTIVE FACT that the perception of love and lust is a completely subjective matter?

Look, I don't really care about what YOUR perception of love and lust entails, nor does the facts care about it. Because what YOU SUBJECTIVELY feel that love and lust means IS NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME as what others subjectively feel or how they percieve these states of mind.

So yeah, you're wise not to argue the point. Mainly because there's no argument to be had.
 

Hitokiri_Gensai

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Vault101 said:
Hitokiri_Gensai said:
Princess Rose said:
Hitokiri_Gensai said:
Personally, i have two slave girls, and a girlfriend, and im always looking for another slave so, im a polygamist :p
**blinks**

You mean "slave girls" as in S&M submissives who enjoy playing that role who you are in a relationship with, not... actual slaves, right?
Both my girls came to me of their own free will. They choose to belong to me, to be my property yes. However, our lifestyle is not just a bedroom thing, its something we do in our lives as a whole, they never stop being my slaves, unless they opt to leave.
soooo...do you like make them clean up after you and make you sandwhiches and stuff?
Occasionally, they both have chores to do at the apartment, although one of them works, so her workload is a little lighter at home. That said, i dont abuse or misuse my girls. I give them love and attention and make sure they're happy. They serve me because they want to, not because i force them to.
 

BRex21

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TheDooD said:
BRex21 said:
polygamy was first made illegal because wealthy men were marrying women, getting them pregnant and abandoning them, so they decided 1 woman per man.As far as modern polygamy I have no issue with it if everyone involved does this of there own free will, I f that is the case I dont see it as any more offensive than gay marriage (as in does not bother me in the slightest provided I'm not involved) what goes on between consenting adults and all that.
but doesn't this still happen just minus the whole marriage part. Besides that if a man or woman can handle and support multiple lovers all the power to'em. Me I don't mind sharing or being shared it's fun.
It does actually, there are plenty of people who have children out of wedlock these days and there are plenty of fathers who don't know they have children. I actually think that the best discussion on this was done on a show called Boston Legal, where they were defending a man convicted of polygamy for marrying one woman who wanted to be a stay at home mom and one woman who wanted a career both of whom wanted children. All parties were happy and getting what they wanted but the man would go to jail over a piece of paper.
I personally would never want to share and never want to be shared. I value spontaneity and doubt I could put my love making on a schedule, but i don't see another way to do it without it getting messy. I don't condemn anyone who DOES want this however.
 

BRex21

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
The fact of the matter is that there are no scientific evidence to suggest that humans are (biologically speaking that is) either polygamous or monogamous lifeforms.
How bout that the head of the penis is designed to trap and remove sperm left by other males?
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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BRex21 said:
How bout that the head of the penis is designed to trap and remove sperm left by other males?
"Designed"?

Look, if you want to discuss religious matters, I don't think this thread is the appropriate one.

The suggestion that the penis is "designed" implies intelligence behind it, and that means you're way into the realms of creationism.

The evolution of the species (and it's appendages) have no design or thought behind it. So stop talking nonsense...
 

Kirex

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
[
"Designed"?

Look, if you want to discuss religious matters, I don't think this thread is the appropriate one.

The suggestion that the penis is "designed" implies intelligence behind it, and that means you're way into the realms of creationism.

The evolution of the species (and it's appendages) have no design or thought behind it. So stop talking nonsense...
Come on, cut him some slack, the word may be incorrect, but 90% of people know what he is trying to get across. It obviously doesn't matter in his argument whether the human penis is "designed" that way or just a result of evolution, there's nothing religious about that. Although I doubt his claim in itself, the discussion would take no other direction even if thought it was "designed by god" to be like this.

Also, definition of design:
(noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints;
The agent doesn't have to be intelligent, and you could arguably call evolutionary processes the "agent" of how the penis became what it is now. I don't see anything wrong with calling the (mid)results of evolution "design", as long as someone doesn't claim that evolution itself has any final purpose. What evolution brought up, body parts, organisms, etc. etc. all fulfill a purpose in their own temporary context.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Kirex said:
The agent doesn't have to be intelligent, and you could arguably call evolutionary processes the "agent" of how the penis became what it is now. I don't see anything wrong with calling the (mid)results of evolution "design", as long as someone doesn't claim that evolution itself has any final purpose. What evolution brought up, body parts, organisms, etc. etc. all fulfill a purpose in their own temporary context.
Sorry, im going to go with academic procedures on this one. And they wouldn't accept a paper where you describe how evolution has some sort of "design" or "purpose" since it's not scientific.

Evolution has "results" and "consequences" and "manifestations" yes, but not "purpose" or "design".

And as to the penis being able to trap and remove sperm from other men, first I'd like to see some credible sources supporting that statement. Then I'd like to see some sources providing objective proof that the ability of a human penis to do that is somehow integral to mankinds methods of procreation and that it is somehow connected to our instinctual behaviour. And when I say proof I mean PROOF, not some pseudo-scientist who cracked a theory.
 

Falseprophet

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Polygamy has been extremely common and prevalent throughout history across time and cultures. However, with only a tiny handful of exceptions, it has always been one man with several women. Even if having multiple legal spouses wasn't supported by the culture or society, rich and powerful men regularly had multiple mistresses, concubines, prostitutes, slaves, etc. Some recent genetic studies suggest that only 10% of men throughout history have passed along their genes, while almost all women who survived to childbearing age did, implying in most societies a handful of powerful men had access to most of the women.

Biology was the basis for these ancient arrangements--a human male has to invest very little to reproduce, and can fertilize many females over a short period. A female can only be fertilized by one man at a time and invests the greater part of a year carrying offspring to term. Biology doesn't restrict us in the same way these days, but that's the early foundation of human relationships.

In the Western world, most of our nations inherited the foundations of civil law from ancient Rome, and the Romans had very clear laws about monogamy (and divorce). Why?

The purpose of marriage as a legal institution is because even rich people can't make use of their property after death, so they wanted to ensure it would be passed on to appropriate heirs. For the Romans, children born within a marriage were "legitimate", and thus entitled to their parents' property. Children born out of marriage were "illegitimate" and entitled to nothing. Thus, a Roman patrician could have affairs with as many slaves or concubines as he wanted, but those children wouldn't inherit a thing--only the children had by his lawful wife would matter. So instead of having a dozen children fighting over their parents' estate, the Roman legal authorities could just declare the legitimate children as the heirs and tell the illegitimate ones to get lost. (The legal heirs might still fight among themselves but at least you've cut out a lot of the conflict.)

Religion might have invested the institution with all sorts of moral reasoning and whatnot, because in earlier times the boundaries between law, religion, philosophy and science weren't as strong as they are today (Roman "prayer" was more like a legal contract between the worshipper and the gods). But religion strictly had nothing to do with the original intent of marriage: a legal measure to ensure that property passed smoothly from parent to legitimate child without strife.

And that's why we don't do polygamy in the Western world. Even though we've invested a lot more meaning into marriage, like love, religion, family, etc., at its heart it's still a legal arrangement for the sharing and distribution of property, and adding more people to the contract would make things infinitely more complicated for tax purposes, family law, power of attorney, etc.
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Unscientific blanket statement.

The fact of the matter is that there are no scientific evidence to suggest that humans are (biologically speaking that is) either polygamous or monogamous lifeforms.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest it. We don't have detailed observation of ancient humans, but we have the biology of said ancient humans, no amount of society is going to change that.

A) Our sperm include a type of sperm that actively fights and kills other men's sperm

B) Our penis is shaped to displace the sperm of others in the incident of "sloppy seconds" to better ensure that the 2nd donor's sperm have a better chance of fertilization.

C) Studies have shown that men unconsciously penetrate deeper when they think their partner has been with another man.

And that's only a handful of biological evidence that I'm aware of that, suggests otherwise to your claim that there is "no evidence"

And in terms of your love lust comment, the reason I wont argue it, is because it's not the point of this topic.

Edit:

Oh, and "Mate for life" in the rest of the animal kingdom is incredibly rare, and the other creatures that have sex for fun, are not mate for life creatures. Nor are any of our closest animal relatives.

Edit x2:

I suppose I should have got caught up to date on the thread, others have started to point out how you're wrong.

Edit x3:

Alright, I'll go ahead and say one thing about the love and lust, then drop it.

Love and lust, two different feelings made from two different chemical reactions.
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Sorry, im going to go with academic procedures on this one. And they wouldn't accept a paper where you describe how evolution has some sort of "design" or "purpose" since it's not scientific.

Evolution has "results" and "consequences" and "manifestations" yes, but not "purpose" or "design".

And as to the penis being able to trap and remove sperm from other men, first I'd like to see some credible sources supporting that statement. Then I'd like to see some sources providing objective proof that the ability of a human penis to do that is somehow integral to mankinds methods of procreation and that it is somehow connected to our instinctual behaviour. And when I say proof I mean PROOF, not some pseudo-scientist who cracked a theory.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513803000163

Citation given.

Edit:

For the record, you can probably use that info to find a copy that doesn't cost money to read
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Draconalis said:
There is plenty of evidence to suggest it. We don't have detailed observation of ancient humans, but we have the biology of said ancient humans, no amount of society is going to change that.

A) Our sperm include a type of sperm that actively fights and kills other men's sperm

B) Our penis is shaped to displace the sperm of others in the incident of "sloppy seconds" to better ensure that the 2nd donor's sperm have a better chance of fertilization.

C) Studies have shown that men unconsciously penetrate deeper when they think their partner has been with another man.

And that's only a handful of biological evidence that I'm aware of that, suggests otherwise to your claim that there is "no evidence"
That still doesn't PROVE that humans are polygamous by nature, sorry. You see sperm are not the same thing as live human beings, and the "behaviour" of sperm isn't representative of the behaviour of human beings.

Also, I'd really like to see how those studies that you claim showed that men unconsciously penetrate deeper when they thin their partner has been with another man were conducted. If they actually were conducted at all that is.

Draconalis said:
And in terms of your love lust comment, the reason I wont argue it, is because it's not the point of this topic.
Bullshit cop-out. I have a hard time seeing that a moderator would actually reprimand you for bringing up views of love and lust and how some people make a distinction between them to be completely off-topic when the actual topic is polygamy.

The real reason you don't argue it is because you can't, and you know it as well as I do.

Draconalis said:
Edit:

Oh, and "Mate for life" in the rest of the animal kingdom is incredibly rare, and the other creatures that have sex for fun, are not mate for life creatures. Nor are any of our closest animal relatives.
Doesn't matter. Evolution has proved that the strategy is a beneficient one for genetic survival. It doesn't matter how "rare" it might be or if our closest animal relatives are monogamous or not. That still doesn't prove anything about humans.

There are no animals who could serve as reasonable analogies to humans, because no other animal on this planet possess the advanced brains that humans have. And it's those brains that make the matter of determining our nature and sexuality in an objective sense so difficult.

Prominent scientists who study biology and human behaviour knows this and don't make unscientific blanket statements like you have. So I find it kind of amusing that you believe that you can be so arrogant just because YOU SUBJECTIVELY happen to think that there is a distinction between love and lust. And naturally you purposefully interpret any studies and findings in a way that supports your views.

But that's not science. So stop trying to claim that your views have scientific support.

Draconalis said:
Edit x2:

I suppose I should have got caught up to date on the thread, others have started to point out how you're wrong.
No, no one has been able to do that as of yet actually...
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Bullshit cop-out. I have a hard time seeing that a moderator would actually reprimand you for bringing up views of love and lust and how some people make a distinction between them to be completely off-topic when the actual topic is polygamy.

The real reason you don't argue it is because you can't, and you know it as well as I do.
It's called self moderation. I'm not concerned about thee mods.

I'm growing tired of your assumptions and your overly hostile attitude. This thread is as close to a friendly debate as I have seen, and you're not contributing to it.

Consider yourself rejected. I no longer care about your opinion on the matter.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Draconalis said:
It's called self moderation. I'm not concerned about thee mods.

I'm growing tired of your assumptions and your overly hostile attitude. This thread is as close to a friendly debate as I have seen, and you're not contributing to it.

Consider yourself rejected. I no longer care about your opinion on the matter.
What is that sound I hear if not the familiar sound of someone running out of viable arguments?
 

the.gill123

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I supose that if that person dies it would cause hell to find out who the next of kin is, which one of the 9 women is it?
Also, it stops people from getting remarried, without getting a divorse and it probably makes it easier for the government to keep track of who is married to who, so it might jst be logistical reaspons
 

Draconalis

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
What is that sound I hear if not the familiar sound of someone running out of viable arguments?
Assumptions like this are exactly why your opinion doesn't matter anymore.

You can quote me all you like, but I wont be responding to you further.
 

BabyRaptor

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Generic Gamer said:
BabyRaptor said:
I won't go off on the long-winded ramble here unless someone asks, but...The big issues with Polygamy being legal Re: marriage are the "moral" issues religious people have with it and a lack of understanding.
It seems rather lazy to assume you're the only person who sees clearly and that everyone else is blinkered or stupid for not agreeing with you. Off the top of my head I can think of several good reasons it's illegal and none are to do with religious doctrine.
Nowhere did I imply that anyone was stupid. I said that most people I've encountered have the wrong idea of the topic.

"Religious doctrine" wasn't a reason I mentioned anywhere. Ever read the Bible? Polygamy is everywhere, and "One man, one woman" isn't ever actually mentioned as a rule. What I said was peoples' morals.

Lastly, that wasn't the only reason I listed, and you're talking like it was.
 

Twilight_guy

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Because America is founded on old puritan values and still has a majority of conservative and religious voters. Same reason they don't allow gay marriage in most places. One important thing to note is that the law is created from a cultural stand point and thus reflects the majority of thinking at one point or another. People did and still do get wiered out by polygamy so they outlawed it. If you don't understand why it doesn't matter. The law is not for you to morally and philosophically argue over in an internet forum because you don't like it, its for you to follow or protest if you like. If you want to go debate laws and legality go be a lawyer.