Post-Avengers: Marvel's Cinematic Universe

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Johnny Novgorod

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CriticKitten said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
I still find it more plausible than some alcoholic playboy sticking a makeshift battery into his chest and electrically powering himself into super heroism with "the rarest metal in the world" or something along those lines (unobtanium for all I care).
Thank you for proving my point.

You're sitting here trying to draw imaginary lines in the sand regarding what's "realistic" and what isn't in a universe whose logic is clearly not in alignment with our own.

I'm trying to point out to you that all of these "heroes", even the "realistic" ones, have absurdly fantastical elements to their back-stories that make them go well beyond the borders of our "reality", which is why it makes no sense to complain about realism in a universe where the concept of "realism" means something else entirely.

In other words:

By rushing to the defense of Batman's "realism" with a weak attack against all of the problems with Iron Man's "realism", you've only further illustrated my point in that regard. Namely, that you aren't bothering to look at these stories in the proper light, and that's precisely why they're not designed with you in mind. Superheroes in the context of Marvel and DC are not "real", nor are they meant to be. They're meant to be fantastical stories that portray a variety of topics, ranging from real life lessons to simple absurdity and humor to serious drama.

So complaining about a lack of "realism" in your superhero movies is, to be blunt, ridiculous. The only time that realism comes into play with regards to this genre is when material is introduced that seemingly violates the "realism" of that reality. And since the Marvel movie universe has already established the existence of aliens, deities, and other various things that would obviously violate the "realism" of our own world, why is a talking raccoon suddenly "too far"?
Well, since you asked... but first off, you're quoting The Matrix. Why are you quoting The Matrix? Morpheus discusses (well, poses) the philosophical question regarding empirical evidence of what is real and what is not. And I'm talking about genre conventions, not Platonic conundrums. Generic conventions deal with stylemes concocted from the pragmatism between a particular ordering - syntax - and particular elements - semantics -. Genre equals conventional semantics over conventional syntax. Just another way of saying that, in time, anything can be a genre, provided it turns into a convention. And that we call realism! So yes, realism is an aesthetical convention, but every genre follows its own. Which is why it is realistic for Superman to fly, but if John McClane were to suddenly acquire the power of flight in Die Hard 6, that would be unrealistic (as per convention of the action macho genre). You realize nothing is stopping a producer from saying "I want Willis to fly in the next one", but nobody's going to take it believable because syntactically, semantically, generically, conventionally, realistically, that is a stretch. And speaking of stretches! Talking raccoons. There is undoubtedly a way of making a film about a talking raccoon (I'm sure we've got plenty of those), but throwing it into a superhero movie that shares the same canon as the current cinematic MARVEL universe is a bit of a stretch. Again, I'm sure those wacky producers are drooling at the monetary potential of next generation's Ewoks. It is doable. It's just stretching the genre a bit too much. Well, a lot.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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CriticKitten said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Why are you quoting The Matrix?
I'm quoting the Matrix because the question asked in that movie is valid for the purposes of this discussion.

You are complaining about how this movie series isn't "realistic", but that depends largely on the definition of what is 'real" within the context of that universe.

Within the Matrix, you can be hit, shot, beaten, stabbed, etc, and those injuries are interpreted by your mind and body as "real" because your mind and body are operating within the confines of that universe and its logic. This is why Morpheus asserts that their world has "rules" that can be bent or broken, allowing people to do things which do not fit our definition of "real", yet are perfectly logical within the confines of the Matrix because the Matrix operates under different assumptions.

Superhero stories operate within a different realm of existence, with their own rules and assumptions. They are not bound by ours, and complaining about how they do not conform to ours is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding about how "fantasy" works.

So yes, realism is an aesthetical convention, but every genre follows its own. Which is why it is realistic for Superman to fly, but if John McClane were to suddenly acquire the power of flight in Die Hard 6, that would be unrealistic (as per convention of the action macho genre). You realize nothing is stopping a producer from saying "I want Willis to fly in the next one", but nobody's going to take it believable because syntactically, semantically, generically, conventionally, realistically, that is a stretch.
....yes, that's what I said.

Different universes have different rules. You're complaining about how superhero movies aren't conforming to a real world standard of "realism", which is (as I pointed out) stupid.

And speaking of stretches! Talking raccoons. There is undoubtedly a way of making a film about a talking raccoon (I'm sure we've got plenty of those), but throwing it into a superhero movie that shares the same canon as the current cinematic MARVEL universe is a bit of a stretch. Again, I'm sure those wacky producers are drooling at the monetary potential of next generation's Ewoks. It is doable. It's just stretching the genre a bit too much. Well, a lot.
Except that you didn't actually explain WHY it's a stretch. You just keep asserting that it is, without giving a real reason WHY.

I should point out that there are any number of movies which are not superhero movies that feature talking animals, and many people would consider those movies to be more grounded in "realism" (in the sense that you're using it) than any superhero movie. In terms of scale, "talking animals" is far, far lower on the scale of "could believe it" than many of the accepted constructs of a superhero world.

So if we're basing ourselves out of a world which accepts the existence of hyper-intelligent AI, advanced alien cultures, non-existent science and technology, and even deities....how exactly is the existence of talking animals a total impossibility within those confines? Especially considering that we have literally accepted the notion that gods exist in this universe....what stops a god from pointing at someone's cat and giving it the capacity to speak? Gods are kinda known to have powers well beyond those of any mortal being, and it's not by any means unusual to read stories about a god giving speech to animals.

This is akin to playing a D&D game in a high-magic setting and then complaining that it makes no sense for Bags of Holding to exist. You're complaining about something relatively small while still accepting the reality of all the other much more fantastical things around you.
Are you reading any of what I'm writing? Enough with real world standards. I never mentioned real world standards. You keep bringing them up. I've been talking about realism as an aesthetic, and how MARVEL's chosen aesthetic/realism, as it now stands, doesn't quite compute with anthro talking animals as a Dr. Doolitle movie would, just to throw and example.
 

Edguy

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So yeah, Iron Man 3 is nearing a billion at the BO. Disney and Marvel are pretty much on the top of the world now.

I hope the massive success of The Avengers and Iron Man 3 encourages Feige and the money people to really put 2nd tier characters like Black Panther and Dr Strange on the slate, and not just in som half-assed $70M film. They really should have the profit margin to go a little bold, considering how much this franchise has earned.

But first, it'll be exciting to see what becomes of Thor: TDW and Captain America: TWS.

And even more exciting; Guardians of the Galaxy. Now, that is a movie with huge potential for success (also when it comes to merchandising..), but also for failure. If they play their cards right, though, and produce & promote it the way they should; Star Wars, but with superheroes and "Pixar/DreamWorks-ish" characters, it should be virtually un-failable at the BO. (C'mon, Star Wars with Superheroes and a talking tree & racoon, what kid in the world wouldn't kill to see that movie?)
 

MisterGobbles

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I'm kinda looking forward to all of them; they vary in quality but they're all fun, and The Avengers is pretty much the best superhero movie I've ever seen.

But I'm also curious to see what they're going to do with that new post-The Avengers TV show Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., it could either turn out really interesting or be an extremely bland cop show. But given that it ties in with the Marvel Cinematic Universe and brings back Agent Coulton (I think that's his name) is enough to sell it as something I'll definitely check out when it airs.
 

Sixcess

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Torbjoern Bakke said:
They really should have the profit margin to go a little bold, considering how much this franchise has earned.
Marvel are infamously tight fisted and even Disney aren't averse to direct-to-video sequels to their big films. I'd guess what they're asking right now is how little can we spend to get this kind of return?

Guardians of the Galaxy will be an interesting change at least - unless they cop out and make half of it take place on contemporary Earth - and I wouldn't bet against that. Rocket Raccoon might be the next breakout CGI character... or he might be the next Jar Jar Howard the Duck.
 

Edguy

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Sixcess said:
Rocket Raccoon might be the next breakout CGI character... or he might be the next Jar Jar Howard the Duck.
Stay positive friend, stay positive.
 

an annoyed writer

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Beautiful Tragedy said:
I guess you prolly don't wanna hear that Marvel, Fox and paramount(?) are trying to ink a deal to have some "shared aspects" to their film worlds. Marvel wants to be able to use whomever they like.
THAT. WOULD. BE. AWESOME. I want to see Spidey on The Avengers cast. That has to happen. Even if it's the crappy Andrew Garfield one, though they'd have to do some salvage work there.
 

Edguy

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an annoyed writer said:
THAT. WOULD. BE. AWESOME. I want to see Spidey on The Avengers cast. That has to happen. Even if it's the crappy Andrew Garfield one, though they'd have to do some salvage work there.
Don't hold your breath for it..
 

Beautiful Tragedy

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an annoyed writer said:
Beautiful Tragedy said:
I guess you prolly don't wanna hear that Marvel, Fox and paramount(?) are trying to ink a deal to have some "shared aspects" to their film worlds. Marvel wants to be able to use whomever they like.
THAT. WOULD. BE. AWESOME. I want to see Spidey on The Avengers cast. That has to happen. Even if it's the crappy Andrew Garfield one, though they'd have to do some salvage work there.
They are working on a deal..it might not happen in A2 but A3 is a real possibility. They have specific people over seeing the respective "world" and i hear or read that they want to "line up" the feel of all the movies across all the films so they will blend better... It's a long shot, but I can see Disney making it happen if they want to.. the are pretty damn powerful.
 

Edguy

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They were planing to include the Oscorp-tower in the skyline of New York in The Avengers, but it got scrapped because it wasn't finished in time to be incorporated.

That, however, is probably as good a cameo as we can hope for. No way Sony and Disney will come to an agreement letting Spider-Man, Marvel's biggest star, be included in an Avengers movie. It would probably be mutually beneficial, but it's just not going to happen.
 

Gatx

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Robetid said:
I am pretty excited for the second wave of Avengers movies. While the first wave were mostly introductory movies I'm hoping they use the second wave to lead up to Avengers 2 a little better. I would love to see a hawkeye stand alone movie. I'd also like to see them cameo or start intergrating the two sides of the marvel universe (x-men and avengers, but with the revamped x-men) especially with talk of a Black Panther in the works. That might be a little wishful thhinking but the marvel civil war would be awesome to see on screen.
I wouldn't hold my breath for X-Men, especially because people seem to LIKE the new X-Men movie so no reason for those rights to be given up any time soon. Plus it makes more sense that they're separate - seems really unreasonable to celebrate these guys who have powers but hate those other guys just because they're born with it.

Also Civil War is a long ways off. You'd need a massive community for it to have the impact it should, at least more than the half a dozen or so they have now.
 

Genocidicles

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ejrocksthisworld said:
Iron Man 3, Thor: The Dark World, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy. These are the scheduled films prior to The Avengers 2 as far as I know). Any theories, speculations or etc.?
There's also an Ant Man film coming out. Someone managed to sneakily record some test footage, and I think it looks ok. A bit silly, but then the other films weren't exactly deadly serious all the time, and it is just test footage after all.



Plus it's being directed by Edgar Wright, who is amazing.
 

Edguy

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Genocidicles said:
There's also an Ant Man film coming out. Someone managed to sneakily record some test footage, and I think it looks ok. A bit silly, but then the other films weren't exactly deadly serious all the time, and it is just test footage after all.



Plus it's being directed by Edgar Wright, who is amazing.
Ant Man is scheduled after The Avengers 2, and is considered a part of Phase III.
 

Edguy

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Iron Man 3 has earned more than $1,1B, nearing Avengers-numbers outside of America. In contrast to Iron Man 2, it has had a growth of about 77% worldwide, which is pretty amazing.

Can we expect similar growth in BO numbers for the Thor and Captain America sequels? Or even more, considering they have lower starting points? Anyways, a equal increases would mean a BO result of ~$796M for Thor 2 and ~$653M for Captain America 2.

Thoughts?
 

Altorin

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shrekfan246 said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Legion said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Fappy said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Having seen Iron Man 3 already I'm not particularly impressed with the Marvel horizon, which has expanded too broadly in my opinion. I can't believe the movie belongs to the same reality as the first film. Imagine the first Iron Man movie with aliens and interdimensional gods. Everytime they were brought up in IM3, Tony would cringe like he didn't want to talk about the aliens because he had PTSD. I cringed because my mind wouldn't allow the wacky Thor universe to co-exist with the farely grounded IM universe.

At this point we have superheroes, mutants, Norse gods, aliens, giants and we're looking forward to anthropomorphic raccoons and ant-sized people - all of them framed from alternate history WWII to the modern-day USA vs. terrorism scenario. I cannot suspend my disbelief any longer.
Welcome to comic books. They definitely aren't for everyone.

I, however, eat this shit up.
I thought we were talking movies, not comic books.
... Where do you think the ideas for these movies come from? They are from the same universe as the comics, they are not "gritty re-imaginings" so the wackier stuff is still going to be used.
That's great but as I said before, we were discussing movies, not comic books. Just because something works in one medium doesn't automatically translate in another medium. Likewise, there's no sacred pledge regarding adaptation. Just because your source material is one way doesn't condemn the adaptation into being the same. Comics can be kitsch and campy in ways modern-day movies can't. Not without being cringey and awkward.
Agreed. The crazy, hyper-connected realities of comics are one of the biggest reasons I just can't follow them in the first place, I don't want them trying to bring that into movies because it's just going to fall apart eventually.
Let it fall if it falls.

So far, it's been a great, almost flawless run.

If they get up to bat and fail, then you get to dance around and say "I told you so", but the truth is, it's just been a lark, this is the first time the source medium has really played a protracted role in the film making process so it's kind of unprecedented. let it precedent.
 

TheRightToArmBears

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Edguy said:
Iron Man 3 has earned more than $1,1B, nearing Avengers-numbers outside of America. In contrast to Iron Man 2, it has had a growth of about 77% worldwide, which is pretty amazing.

Can we expect similar growth in BO numbers for the Thor and Captain America sequels? Or even more, considering they have lower starting points? Anyways, a equal increases would mean a BO result of ~$796M for Thor 2 and ~$653M for Captain America 2.

Thoughts?
I think the Thor and Cap sequels will probably pull in a fair bit more than the first films did. They've both been given a load of hype from the Avengers (and by association, Iron Man 3)- I've seen a lot more advertising for the new Thor as well, so I'd be surprised.