Potential dealbreakers for trusted friends? (Resolution added to OP)

[DrunkOnEstus]

I had a more straightforward thread title in mind, but I wanted to open up the discussion to make it more open-ended than the narrow issue I'm dealing with specifically, to help encourage responses and additional stories.

Anyway, I've got a friend that I've known for about 2 years now, probably a little longer. Over those 2 years, I've grown to really trust this person, and I would have no issue leaving $100,000 with him if the situation arose, without worry. This is a friend that I've enjoyed spending a night out with, but on issues of chemistry and some conflicts in interests/hobbies I probably wouldn't want to spend more than 2 days of a given week with this person.

Getting to the point, him and I were having a drink last night, and a conversation started that I haven't been able to stop thinking about since. I brought up some thoughts I'd had (for family reasons) about moving back near my hometown, but lamented about how completely rural, devoid of culture and white the place is (I'm white, and the friend is white). This led to me mentioning the continued and accepted presence of the KKK in the specific town I came from, an aspect that always bothered the shit out of me. His response was "hey, that's pretty cool".

I was pretty knocked back, and figured he would definitely qualify the statement, so I said, "Well no, it isn't cool at all to me, I've got a big problem with racism". His response? "Well, I'm a racist. Not a violent one or anything, but I really have a hard time liking people who aren't white". I wouldn't have assumed this in 10 lifetimes, figuring maybe he was fucking with me. He continued to justify it to me, "well I was raised that way by both my parents, and I've had no good interactions with black people for example....". It got uncomfortable, I changed the subject, and we left not long afterward.

It was kind of a bomb to drop, and I'm fighting with the idea of figuring out a way to break off the friendship, or (holy hell) whether this is something I can set aside because the guy has been everything a trusted friend should be so far. I've spent my life being able to filter abject racists from knowing me too well because they broadcast it in subtle ways, and I've never had someone I know come right out and say "I'm a racist".

So with all that said, is this something that you could break off? I'm not necessarily asking for personal advice, but I understand that some will have input based on the limited context I've provided here. If not racism, what "bombshell" from someone who's already a friend would cause you to walk away from it? I just figured that if I've been thinking about it steadily since last night, it wouldn't hurt to make it an interesting and potentially educational discussion.

EDIT: Resolution to original story:

Okay, so the lunch happened...somewhat interesting results.

James and I were waiting at the table for John to show up, when he walks up. He sees that James is black,shoots me kind of a stare, and sits at the table a bit of trepidation, on my side of the table. Eventually, the two of them hit it off like I was hoping they would. After about 15 minutes or so, John brings race to the conversation, talking about how impressed he is that James "doesn't have his pants below his ass, and isn't doing the 'jigga jigga' ebonics nonsense". This is where I thought things would go bad, but James was expecting the absolute worst, so he was cool about it, commenting on how important he felt it was to not play into black stereotypes just for the sake of blackness or whatever.

They ended up exchanging numbers as we left, and here's where shit got uncomfortable. As we're all parting ways, John says "you know man, at first I wasn't sure that we'd be cool with each other, but it's like you're a white guy stuck in a black man's body". I...didn't have the hundreds of words required to tear that statement down, nor the time, so James gave a kind of awkward laugh with a "yeah...I guess so" and we all left.

I figured after that that John and I could still be friends, but I'd rather not hang around as much as we had been. He showed that he isn't violent or truly hateful for no reason, but the level of ignorance shown despite actually liking and trading numbers with the person is a shame compared to his relative intelligence and level of trust.

 

[Kae]

I don't know if you should, like you said you trusted him and when confronted with the question he answered truthfully, people that honest are hard to find, even from what he said he's only that way because he was raised like that and most importantly he hasn't had good or probably much interaction with non-whites, perhaps I'm just assuming the best of the fellow but that sounds like if he met a decent person that was of colour or ethnic he'd likely could set that aside, and I'm saying that as a Mexican fellow.

Then again who am I to say that's right I have no one I really trust like that and I started treating someone I got along with quite well like shit after he refused to give some left-over food to a vagabond after I suggested it because of the excuse of "Fuck him! I paid for this, he didn't" and then threw it in the trash, which of course didn't stop the vagabond from eating it anyway but that attitude pissed me off as someone who has passed from starvation I can't stand that kind of attitude, being so hungry that you literally can't move at all is one of the worst feelings I've ever experienced and it sucks.

Anyway it's not like I did it consciously, at first I was like OK, but after that I was just really pissed at him and whenever he talked to me I would just tell him to fuck off, I thought it was because he was a lazy asshole and a terrible co-worker but I don't mind that much, after he confronted me a question suddenly popped into my head and I told him "Hey, uh... If you ever had the chance of helping someone without losing absolutely anything, would you?" and he answered "Yes, of course I would, without thinking!" and I got really pissed and called him a liar and then mentioned the whole business with the vagabond, he answered "Well then, you got me OK! I'm a selfish person I don't care about anyone but myself", but he didn't sound annoyed or anything, he sounded honest for once and he wasn't even pissed at me, I kinda try to respect him afterwards but I'm just not capable of that, he's unbearable, and that's how I realized I couldn't stand that kind of behaviour at all, also that was like a month ago.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

I don't know if you should, like you said you trusted him and when confronted with the question he answered truthfully, people that honest are hard to find

That was one of the aspects of it that struck me as strange, but now that you mention it, it's very much like this person to not bullshit me, apparently to the point where he's not going to pretend that he isn't racist in order to "please" me.

And you're probably right, I always got the impression that he was raised in a bit of a bubble, but I never connected that to having potentially been cut off from people of color.

Regarding your acquaintance, yeah if I wasn't really good friends with that person that display would push me over the edge. There's no ethical or even logical reason to throw perfectly good food away right in front of someone who could die without it, so I don't blame you for having an issue with it. I think honesty somehow plays into this, I could see how a lack of self-awareness or even dishonesty about being a giving individual makes it worse. Though I wonder, if he was able to remember the event in question, does he really not care about others the way he thinks he does? If the homeless person really was a "nothing" that he gave no second thought to at the time, it must have stuck with him to some degree if he knew what you were referencing. Of course I don't know most of the details and I'm wondering out loud right now.

 

[000Ronald]

Everyone has faults, and racism is one of the most basic human feelings (xenophobia), as long as the person is non violent towards non-whites you shouldn't lose sleep over this.

Yes, but part of life is being willing and able to overcome those faults. There's nothing wrong with being an asshole in and of itself, but living as an asshole and never learning or realizing that being an asshole sucks...that's wrong.

Didn't you ever watch Groundhog Day?

 

[Kae]

-SNIP-

-And well I don't know if I'm right after all I couldn't be friends with him since I have pretty thick accent and I'm very obviously Mexican, I don't know what you should do, people are complicated and hard to understand, plus everyone has flaws, I guess a true friend would help them get over their flaws so they can become a better person, but at the same time that's like playing with fire and you may end up on worse terms and having enemies is never good, what a bother.

-I'm pretty sure he knew because I did cut a lot of the story, he was having trouble with something and I was trying to help him, the conversation actually ended shortly after he asked me "Why are you helping me if you gain nothing from it?"[footnote]A question that I evaded because I can't really explain why, it's just my nature I guess, he does seem to be hitting on me a lot lately which is a bother...[/footnote], I don't think he was being dishonest to himself when he said he'd help someone like that without a doubt, I think he was only being dishonest to me, I mean after all it would obviously be something negative to someone that goes out of their way to help someone that isn't even their friend, of course I'm also pretty bluntly honest so I value honesty a lot, which probably is why I'm assuming the best of that person you were talking about.

 

[FalloutJack]

I find it pretty inasane that there's a thread about accepting "vampires", but our culture thinks racism is "too far". Everyone has faults, and racism is one of the most basic human feelings (xenophobia), as long as the person is non violent towards non-whites you shouldn't lose sleep over this.

The vampires just have a condition. Racism is an obsolete instinct carried over from an age where 'You're not like me, so I must kill you' was important. It's all mental, and all ridiculous when you think about it. Just think how far we'd all progress if we could just end this silly problem with people's skin.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Lots of people have racial prejudice, so I'd guess it depends on you and weather, or not you can tolerate their attitudes on the subject, along with how often it comes up. Also it might hinge on weather, or not your friend is willing to change, or if they can actually change. So the question is, is this a huge problem and is it a personal problem for you? If it is then you might have to distance yourself from your friend, though I'm not sure burning bridges in this case is the best course of action. Especially if your friend is an honestly good person, just with an isolated attitude and bad experiences, they might change if they have more exposure and have better experiences.

Personally I have had two friendship breaking bombshells with trusted friends. Well at least two that I can think of off the top of my head.

The more recent one was a gay friend I had. He was pretty cool and I even let him in my home and stuff, would have trusted him with a whole of my monthly check if the need arose. He dropped two bombshells on me though. The first was that he was a massive slut, basically the only sex he was willing to have was with strangers he didn't know, bareback, and he did this on a regular basis. That filled me with disgust, but I kinda made peace with it, it's his sex-life after all, none of my business either, really. But then I found out he was a massive transphobe, the funny part is that he had no idea I'm transgender. When I found out I confronted him, he acted really hurt, but I channeled my mother's ability to verbally destroy someone to the point where they wish they'd never been born. It was a pretty ugly fight and I told that friend that I never wanted to speak to them, or see them ever again. It's just one of those things where I draw the line totally, I can't be friends with a person who holds those kind of views, it's way too personal.

The second was a friend I had, a really well trusted friend. He was, and is still a pretty cool guy, but I just can't hang out with him any more. Basically he's really in to transgender people of Caucasian and Asian descent(he's African-American), which generally isn't an issue for me. The problem is that he really wanted me to be his... "Fuck buddy", for lack of a better term. I told him that I wasn't interested, but he continued coming on to me and pushing me to get into bed with him, despite my telling him firmly I wasn't interested. Finally I just told him that we couldn't be friends anymore because of his sexual feelings for me and I cut contact. Really kinda sad about that too, because he really isn't a bad person... Still that level of sexual tension just ruins a friendship, especially when one party isn't interested.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Strange to hear someone say they are racist.

That kind of self awareness would lead to them not being racist youd think. Most racists I know usually think they are just 'telling it like it is' or not being 'politically correct' and dont believe they are racist at all.

And yes I am friends with racists and homophobes. One flaw isnt enough to write people off and outside of the internet that stuff is common as sin. Especially when I look at the bikers I know.

 

[Cowabungaa]

To me his admittance points me towards one thing; ignorance is one thing, the willful kind of ignorance that he displays is another. Yeah I'd stop seeing the guy too if I was in that position, or at least cooled things off significantly if I couldn't avoid him (if he, for instance, was in my Magic the Gathering playing group).

So yes, straight-up racism like that would be a dealbreaker for me. As would straight-up homophobia, transphobia and the like and violent behavior. I can't think of any others right about now. I'm already gritting my teeth to sit through casual racism.

And yes I am friends with racists and homophobes. One flaw isnt enough to write people off and outside of the internet that stuff is common as sin. Especially when I look at the bikers I know.

Depends on the flaw I'd say, and to me straight-up racism is one of the worse ones in this day and age.

Yes, it's obsolete, but most people can't help it, especially if you were grown up in such a house.

The part in bold is what I have problems with, I don't believe they can't help it, that's taking away a lot of agency from people. It's not, to put it philosophically, taking responsibility for ones own person and actions. It might not have been kickstarted by themselves but our environment constantly shows how flawed it is. The evidence of its outdated-ness is legion, yet to continue displaying such behavior in spite of that is nothing short of being brutish, ignorant and uncivilized. As has been said before; life is for a large part overcoming personal flaws and growing as a person.

 

[Buffoon1980]

I can't tell you what to think, but I'm pretty judgemental, and if one of my friends said something like that I can't imagine ever wanting to be in their presence again. Indeed, unless there was truly long history of friendship between us, I'd be pretty likely to tell them to fuck off.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Someone admitting their illogical hate towards humans of a different colour? As mentioned before, that kind of self awareness should push them to better themselves if they are aware of it as an illogical flaw. That is what any decent person would do. If they choose to remain as they are, then your friendship will strain over time. I speak from multiple experiences. There are plenty of decent humans out there, but using the strength and confidence to find them can prove tricky.

Ask them if they want to improve and empathise with their fellow people. Hopefully they will reply just as honestly. Though you mention being hit on lately also, which is a whole other bag of disgruntled baby seals. I would recommend at least soul searching (or whatever it is called) in the meantime. Try to keep the people that bring out the best in you, around. As vague and memey is it sounds, quality of friendship and life will grow. Best of luck to you!

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Edit response to OP: I'm glad things all worked out for you and your friend. That was real smooth, maybe eventually if he gets more interaction, he'll change his view or realize just how much of it is based on stereotypes.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Yes, but overcoming means trying not to hurt other people by it, not changing your entire mentality, that's like saying to someone with a phobia that it's his fault and if he wanted bad enough he could've gottem rid of it.

That comparison does not hold, because phobias are mental disorders. Racism is not.

This also implies (read: implies, not shows outright, I don't want to put words in your mouth) two things:
- Racism defines ones mentality.
- Ones mentality cannot be changed.

It also gives a very narrow definition of overcoming ones faults. Not hurting people with it is a first step in that, yes, or part of it. But it doesn't exactly cover it all. Neither does the second hold, as legions of people show that it can be done. Ex-gang members changing radically criminal behavior and ways of thinking [http://newsok.com/ex-gang-member-turns-life-around-white-wears-different-colors-as-policeman/article/2715375], ex-Klu Klux Klan members now fighting against racism [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Lee_Clary]. Those are of course just small examples, but it shows that both ordinary people and people that are more on the foreground are capable of extreme change.

Now two questions are raised. First, is such extreme change needed with everyone? I don't think so. Not everyone, like the OP's friend, is as extreme a racist as to be a KKK member. Not every criminal is in a violent gang. The majority of racist thought is a lot more mundane. The second is; is everyone capable of such change? I believe so, though it is no logical necessity. It is definitely possible that not every KKK member can be 'converted' as it were. However, I do believe that everyone has the rational capabilities to invoke such change. We, as members of the same species, are relatively (relatively being important here) equal in our mental faculties.

What it takes to engage those capabilities differs from person to person, naturally. But I do think it a moral obligation to strive towards changing such things in yourself, to think about your own behavior and thinking patterns and what they imply. Introspection, I think, is not only vitally important and extremely underrated in our societies, I also think we have a moral imperative to use it to better ourselves and thus in the long run grow as a society.

 

[Barbas]

Whassamatta, Estus, you never met racist people before? You should spend lunch at my house and hear some of the old man's stories!

Seriously, though, I wouldn't break off a two-year close friendship over something like that. It sounds really interesting, and I'd ask him more about his own experiences to find out why he thinks what he does. Finding out someone's story sounds much better than just casting them off. And like someone's already pointed out, an honest response like what he gave isn't something you come by very often in life.

I suppose I might have to break off relations with someone if they tried to kill me, or if a single pernicious pursuit held such a grip over their lives that it became what defined them; something they ended up dedicating every waking hour to, something that dominated their thinking and made them what I would consider callous or even inhuman. There's not really anything else that comes to mind.