Potential dealbreakers for trusted friends? (Resolution added to OP)

[Scarim Coral]

Yeah it wouldn't happened to me seeing how I'm Chinese and my best mate is white (also no I don't have a friend who is Chinese before you asked).

Well ok seriously while I do share the same belief that racism is bad (I had my fair share of it and I met a friend friend who is racist) but for this situation, I would be somewhat ignorant about it.

I mean you only just learn it now that he is a racist? I can only assume that your frienship would remain stable if he isn't around any non white people or rather he's the type who can keep the racisism to himself when among other ethnic people. Granted I would break it off if he were to suddently shout racist remarks to a bunch of colourful people in a train.

 

[Aerosteam]

That's just his opinion and it's a good thing that's all there is. So long as he isn't part of any movements or something I don't hink it's a big deal.

Also, he's that self aware of his disliking and calls himself a racist? To that I say: "Pfft, that's some level 3 racism right there" (level cap for racism I'd say is like 20).

 

[Cowabungaa]

The problem is that you associate racism as the most extreme kind, you can be racist but still believe that those minorities deserve rights. I talk about racism as not being comfortable with person of a different race which seems to be the case with the OP's friend, if it's racism by violence or disapproving of basic human rights then it needs to be changed, but I can't say that basic discomfort needs to be eradicated without thinking of brain washing.

I do not make that association. I specifically noted that not everyone needs such extreme change as most racism is of a lot more mundane nature, like that basic discomfort, though the OP's friend's 'problems' are implied to go a little further I think.

It's a little like this, I think. That KKK member's racism can be described as <A,B,C>, with B and C being the extreme parts. More mundane racism would, for instance, just be A. And it ain't like that KKK leader I gave as an example just changed B and C, he also changed A. He also did it quite without brainwashing.

It's possible for people to make that change, and I think that the OP's friend too has the mental faculties to invoke such change. Whether he's willing is another matter, but if he is not I could no longer be good friends with that person, for reasons I already described. He's definitely allowed to have his opinions, but I wouldn't want to associate with them more than I need to.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

I find it pretty inasane that there's a thread about accepting "vampires", but our culture thinks racism is "too far".

Whoa, I didn't see that thread about vampires, haven't checked it out yet but that's totally about the context for me there. Do these people have an extreme urge to bite people they don't know on the neck or something? That would be too problematic for me. Granted, I did giggle a little when I saw your response so I'm going to check that out.

Finally I just told him that we couldn't be friends anymore because of his sexual feelings for me and I cut contact. Really kinda sad about that too, because he really isn't a bad person... Still that level of sexual tension just ruins a friendship, especially when one party isn't interested.

The best friendship I ever had ended in a less...unsavory but similar manner, and it still sucks today despite it being 8 years ago. When I moved to the hicksville in the OP (not to be confused with the glorious Hekseville from Gravity Rush), he was the only gay/queer/what have you person at the entire school. We talked for a couple weeks without me knowing this about him, when one day someone went on an extremely homophobic diatribe at him and tried to throw a basketball at his head. That person ended up...regretting that action rather severely. Anyway, after that we were inseparable for a few years, I dove head first into gay culture, and that also lead to me being a counselor for LGBT kids with non-accepting parents. Anyway, out of the blue he confesses his love for me, and that he had been hiding it as best he could every day for a long time. For a couple days I actually entertained the idea of thinking myself gay, and really imagined it, but I could only think of the relationship as awesome in every regard that wasn't intimate. It's the reason I will argue to the death that no camp or amount of extensive thinking will allow a gay person to be truly straight to make their life easier. He couldn't handle it anymore, and we drifted apart because he couldn't "just be friends" anymore. Kinda went off topic there but I got to thinking about it and figured I'd share it.

I can't tell you what to think, but I'm pretty judgemental, and if one of my friends said something like that I can't imagine ever wanting to be in their presence again. Indeed, unless there was truly long history of friendship between us, I'd be pretty likely to tell them to fuck off.

In most cases, I'm with you 100%. The caveat here is that this is indeed a long history of friendship, and the admission of racism was without hatred, so I'm mulling over it. I have an idea though that I'll share for everybody at the end of this post. The reason I didn't know until this conversation is that this isn't somebody who uses slurs or makes comments to people of color on the street.

Someone admitting their illogical hate towards humans of a different colour? As mentioned before, that kind of self awareness should push them to better themselves if they are aware of it as an illogical flaw. That is what any decent person would do. If they choose to remain as they are, then your friendship will strain over time. I speak from multiple experiences. There are plenty of decent humans out there, but using the strength and confidence to find them can prove tricky.

Ask them if they want to improve and empathise with their fellow people. Hopefully they will reply just as honestly. Though you mention being hit on lately also, which is a whole other bag of disgruntled baby seals. I would recommend at least soul searching (or whatever it is called) in the meantime. Try to keep the people that bring out the best in you, around. As vague and memey is it sounds, quality of friendship and life will grow. Best of luck to you!

I appreciate the wishes of luck, I have a plan regarding this situation and I wanted to make sure you were quoted in case you missed it.

Whassamatta, Estus, you never met racist people before? You should spend lunch at my house and hear some of the old man's stories!

Oh I know racism, my great-grandfather's brother (my great-great uncle?) was SS. I had to go through his uniforms and badges/pins and shit when he died, and there's more than a couple people on the family tree still living that cause me to avoid family functions if I can help it. It might be why this situation in particular is more of a bizarre curiosity to me.


Alright, on with the plan. I called up a black friend of mine (lets call him James), someone who I realized would really hit it off with OP friend (lets call him John) had I not heard this admission last night. James has a preeeeety thick skin, so I told him that I wanted to have lunch tomorrow, and that I would be inviting John, disclosing that he's apparently a racist but that they really could be friends with that fact aside, and asked him what he thought about it. He's actually looking forward to it; I let him know that John isn't an asshole or an angry person at all (not that James couldn't handle that) and he's looking forward to it. I got a hold of John and asked him to lunch where I'd be with a friend of mine I think he should meet.

I'm 99.9% certain that this won't be a big issue or a "thing", but if the Gods intervene or something and it is, James won't mind at all and I'll know with total certainty that John isn't somebody I want in my life despite the friendship and trust we have otherwise. Best case scenario, they hit it off and John realizes that whatever crap was drilled into his head from birth is dated and irrational ideology and he puts it behind him. I'll let everybody know how it turns out.

 

[Barbas]

Alright, on with the plan. I called up a black friend of mine (lets call him James), someone who I realized would really hit it off with OP friend (lets call him John) had I not heard this admission last night. James has a preeeeety thick skin, so I told him that I wanted to have lunch tomorrow, and that I would be inviting John, disclosing that he's apparently a racist but that they really could be friends with that fact aside, and asked him what he thought about it. He's actually looking forward to it; I let him know that John isn't an asshole or an angry person at all (not that James couldn't handle that) and he's looking forward to it. I got a hold of John and asked him to lunch where I'd be with a friend of mine I think he should meet.

I'm 99.9% certain that this won't be a big issue or a "thing", but if the Gods intervene or something and it is, James won't mind at all and I'll know with total certainty that John isn't somebody I want in my life despite the friendship and trust we have otherwise. Best case scenario, they hit it off and John realizes that whatever crap was drilled into his head from birth is dated and irrational ideology and he puts it behind him. I'll let everybody know how it turns out.

Do you know which wing or division it was? I think Waffen SS veterans are still campaigning for many of the usual veteran rights that were denied them (excluding the post-1943 conscripts) after a lengthy battle.

Well, I'm not sure if you can really hope to de-racism someone in one meeting or in the course of a single day, particularly if they claim to have been raised into that way of thinking. Still, good luck and I hope it all goes as well as it can with everyone's friendship strengthened.

 

[FalloutJack]

I find it pretty inasane that there's a thread about accepting "vampires", but our culture thinks racism is "too far". Everyone has faults, and racism is one of the most basic human feelings (xenophobia), as long as the person is non violent towards non-whites you shouldn't lose sleep over this.

The vampires just have a condition. Racism is an obsolete instinct carried over from an age where 'You're not like me, so I must kill you' was important. It's all mental, and all ridiculous when you think about it. Just think how far we'd all progress if we could just end this silly problem with people's skin.

Yes, it's obsolete, but most people can't help it, especially if you were grown up in such a house. And it by itself is a massive instinct probably since the dawn of man (where other groups were pretty likely to kill you and rape your women), it can't ever go away and can't be "cured", especially once you are an adult, if you are not racist towards anyone (which is pretty doubtful, humans always dislike other groups, not necessarily racial) then good for you, just don't act like other people do it by choice and can "turn it off".

Of course it can go away. The Vampires can't change their hereditary condition. People can have their minds changed. There's a big gulf of a difference between a biological condition and a psychological one.

 

[Dalek Caan]

It kinda sounds like he isn't actually a racist, he just might be uncomfortable more than anything around anyone who isn't white. I would say wait and see what happens when he meets James and hope for the best.

Have to say though if I met someone who turned out to be an actual racist then I would never talk to that person again.

Also, he's that self aware of his disliking and calls himself a racist? To that I say: "Pfft, that's some level 3 racism right there" (level cap for racism I'd say is like 20).

25 with DLC.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

That is a hard one.

Social conditioning is very powerful. If he was raised in a certain way he may have a virtually irreversible negative learned response to other races. Strictly speaking, how he was raised is not his fault. It is how he chose to deal with how he was raised that really matters. As long as he is not committing hate crimes or causing problems for a black co worker or something I wouldn't say he is a bad person.

It is possible that he actual is a horrible racist asshole. But that seems unlikely. For one thing you were not able to detect his racism despite being very close to him. That says to me he recognizes the problem and that he knows it is a problem. He likely does his best to compensate. He probably watches himself very carefully and makes sure to keep a lid on it. I would take "I have a problem with black people but I do my best to contain it" over "I don't have a problem with black people, but..." any day of the week.

On the other hand, being cool with the continued existence of the KKK is a really bad sign. But it might just be that he was running a bit on auto pilot and slipped up adjusting his behavior.

I wouldn't immediately discount him.

 

[harrisongrimms]

There should be a term for those who are racist against racists.

The dudes your bud, its hard enough to find a good bro in this world. And he answered honestly, and told you his reasonings behind his beliefs. He isnt trying to "Convert" you, and he wasnt being overtly an asshole to those of a different color to him if he had to outright state that he was racist for you to find out.

Its just another group/culture thing. If they arent being hostile, or preachy about the beliefs (or being an asshole to coloreds) .......whats the problem?

You should learn acceptance. For shame.

 

[Muspelheim]

Oh, for goodness' sake, what a bunch of bollocks your mate's got going. "Black people" is such a broad term that it's meaningless. I can't for the life of me understand the sort of lazy attitude that leads people to not challenge a feeling of discomfort to people depending on their sodding melanin levels. It's dumb, and judging people on their actions and general behaviour is what matters. How hard is it? Punch him on the gob until he promises to be less of an idiot, you'll be doing him and yourself a service. (Or whatever other method might give results)

An idiot like me can do it, for fuck's sake. Mercilessly judge people on their actions, not on stuff that they can't help and also does not matter one bit (see also sexual orientation).

Watched it a long time ago. Anyway, why he is an asshole? People are free not to be comfortable with everything, the guy at least is honest about it which is better than most people. I don't like people that smoke, do I really need to force myself to accept it?

Difference is, I chose to start smoking. I choose to continue smoking. And since I know that it is a choice that affects others, I won't smoke indoors, in tight groups or right outside entries.

People don't decide their race. This isn't a fucking MMO, now is it?

He's honest, certainly, but it hardly changes the fact that he dislikes people because of something that isn't wrong and that they can't help. Honesty is not an excuse, being honest about a dumb state of mind doesn't mean it isn't dumb.

And trust me, I'm the Grand Marshall on dumb.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

There's an episode of American Dad where Stan meets a guy that is a perfect friend for him in every way. They like all the same jokes, do all the same things, true blood Republicans, everything.
And then Stan finds out that his new friend doesn't believe in God. So Stan goes about trying to make him believe in God, to the point where Stan makes him kill himself because he's lost everything (Stan sabotaged his life). Stan pleads with God to give him back and promises that he'll accept his new friend the way he is and stop trying to change him.
His friend wakes up, says that he met God just before God kicked him out of Heaven and that he made a deal with the Devil. The Devil let him come back in exchange for becoming a Satanist. Stan is horrified at first, but then he accepts it and they walk out as friends.
"You still play golf, right?"
"Stan, of course. I'm a Satanist, not poor."

I think that's the situation you're in right now. This guy, to the best of your knowledge, hasn't done anything bad. I think he's wrong, but it's not like he's going to rallies, burning homes down, or being a general terror. If he was, I'm sure you would have heard about it by now. He just has a different, albeit backward and dated, way of looking at things. Probably not a good idea to bring him around any minority friends you may have, but if you've been friends with him for this long and he hasn't done anything except share his view with you, then I think you should still try to be friends.


And now, moving on to the implied question, a deal breaker for me in a trusted friend would be the breaking of said trust. Surprise! Cheap answer, I now, so let me give a few examples.

You stole from me. Like, straight stole my belongings, or stole money, or something like that. If I trust you enough to let you into my room or my house and I find out you've been taking my stuff, we're done.

If I had a girlfriend and she cheated on me with you. So done. Done done done.

I can't think of anything else. If I'm really good friends with someone, I can forgive a lot of stuff. It might take a while for the trust to reach the same level--and it might never reach that level again--but I can usually move past it. But those two things? Nope.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I find it pretty inasane that there's a thread about accepting "vampires", but our culture thinks racism is "too far". Everyone has faults, and racism is one of the most basic human feelings (xenophobia), as long as the person is non violent towards non-whites you shouldn't lose sleep over this.

It's almost as if being delusional about yourself is not in fact negative towards others!

But hey I'm not surprised the guy who wants Muslims to die first would be okay with racism.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I had a more straightforward thread title in mind, but I wanted to open up the discussion to make it more open-ended than the narrow issue I'm dealing with specifically, to help encourage responses and additional stories.

Anyway, I've got a friend that I've known for about 2 years now, probably a little longer. Over those 2 years, I've grown to really trust this person, and I would have no issue leaving $100,000 with him if the situation arose, without worry. This is a friend that I've enjoyed spending a night out with, but on issues of chemistry and some conflicts in interests/hobbies I probably wouldn't want to spend more than 2 days of a given week with this person.

Getting to the point, him and I were having a drink last night, and a conversation started that I haven't been able to stop thinking about since. I brought up some thoughts I'd had (for family reasons) about moving back near my hometown, but lamented about how completely rural, devoid of culture and white the place is (I'm white, and the friend is white). This led to me mentioning the continued and accepted presence of the KKK in the specific town I came from, an aspect that always bothered the shit out of me. His response was "hey, that's pretty cool".

I was pretty knocked back, and figured he would definitely qualify the statement, so I said, "Well no, it isn't cool at all to me, I've got a big problem with racism". His response? "Well, I'm a racist. Not a violent one or anything, but I really have a hard time liking people who aren't white". I wouldn't have assumed this in 10 lifetimes, figuring maybe he was fucking with me. He continued to justify it to me, "well I was raised that way by both my parents, and I've had no good interactions with black people for example....". It got uncomfortable, I changed the subject, and we left not long afterward.

It was kind of a bomb to drop, and I'm fighting with the idea of figuring out a way to break off the friendship, or (holy hell) whether this is something I can set aside because the guy has been everything a trusted friend should be so far. I've spent my life being able to filter abject racists from knowing me too well because they broadcast it in subtle ways, and I've never had someone I know come right out and say "I'm a racist".

So with all that said, is this something that you could break off? I'm not necessarily asking for personal advice, but I understand that some will have input based on the limited context I've provided here. If not racism, what "bombshell" from someone who's already a friend would cause you to walk away from it? I just figured that if I've been thinking about it steadily since last night, it wouldn't hurt to make it an interesting and potentially educational discussion.

The way I see it I wouldn't want to be friends with someone like that. Got ancestry from a few different places in the world such that I doubt I'd ever be friends with them based on that alone, but the principle to me is I just couldn't feel good letting that kind of bigotry go unopposed. Sure it wouldn't (theoretically if they were somehow my friend) be targeting me but I wouldn't feel right ignoring it just because it wasn't directed at me.

No one's perfect but it sounds like just unapologetic racism. And supporting the damn KKK goes way too far. It's one thing for someone to be unintentionally racist in small amounts, especially if you know they think racism is bad. Another if they declare themselves a racist and think the KKK is alright.

In general I think there's a line, and being so apparently unapologetic and stuff just goes beyond it for me.

On the topic of what could ruin a friendship... well bigotry like that. Also I wouldn't ever really trust someone who cheats on someone else or is the other (knowing) party that someone is cheating with.

 

[Foolery]

Deal-breakers? Yeah. I've got a good handful.

-You steal my stuff.
-You borrow my stuff, without asking, and aren't the least bit remorseful or apologetic about it.
-Drugs. Never done any myself, and I have no interest in it. I'm okay with someone having a bit of weed now and again, but if it's all you do, you're a boring person I'd rather not be around.
-Excessive negativity. This includes complaining or talking shit about people. Also too much cursing. Makes you sound unintelligent and uncouth.
-You think that mental illness isn't real and depressed people should just 'get over it' or 'stop being blue'.
-You never reciprocate. This kills friendships fast. And comes in many forms.

I could probably list more, but these are big ones that come to mind.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

Okay, so the lunch happened...somewhat interesting results.

James and I were waiting at the table for John to show up, when he walks up. He sees that James is black,shoots me kind of a stare, and sits at the table a bit of trepidation, on my side of the table. Eventually, the two of them hit it off like I was hoping they would. After about 15 minutes or so, John brings race to the conversation, talking about how impressed he is that James "doesn't have his pants below his ass, and isn't doing the 'jigga jigga' ebonics nonsense". This is where I thought things would go bad, but James was expecting the absolute worst, so he was cool about it, commenting on how important he felt it was to not play into black stereotypes just for the sake of blackness or whatever.

They ended up exchanging numbers as we left, and here's where shit got uncomfortable. As we're all parting ways, John says "you know man, at first I wasn't sure that we'd be cool with each other, but it's like you're a white guy stuck in a black man's body". I...didn't have the hundreds of words required to tear that statement down, nor the time, so James gave a kind of awkward laugh with a "yeah...I guess so" and we all left.

I figured after that that John and I could still be friends, but I'd rather not hang around as much as we had been. He showed that he isn't violent or truly hateful for no reason, but the level of ignorance shown despite actually liking and trading numbers with the person is a shame compared to his relative intelligence and level of trust. James handled it like a trooper though, I suppose that's a situation that could have gotten bad.

 

[Buckets]

I grew up in the generation where homosexuals and ethnic races were considered inferior, so naturally that rubbed off on me for the first 18 years (or so) of my life. I joined the Royal Air Force and worked alongside all manner of people of different races, they were like my family so soon realised how ridiculous that viewpoint was.
My world view has changed a lot over my lifetime, and I am saddened that groups like the national front, the KKK are even allowed to exist nowadays, but there is that 'free speech' chestnut again.

 

[Thyunda]

Voting UKIP.

Nah, I'm kidding. Sadly a lot of my friends did vote UKIP and hid it from me because, and I quote "he didn't tell you because he knows what you'll do to him."
By which he meant I'd lecture him. Fiercely. About all sorts of things.
I'm fairly blessed with decent friendships that don't get ruined by political arguments because we respect each other's boundaries. I don't start lecturing unless I'm refuting a point somebody else has made, and when the friend the quote referred to hinted he wanted to vote out of the European Union, he wouldn't expand on why and I said quite plainly "I can't lecture him, mate. He's voting on instinct and I can't argue against instinct."

Genuine dealbreakers are things like theft, excessive use of marijuana, alcohol or being disrespectful with cigarettes.
Let me expand.
The first one caused a break that's still going on. I left some games with a mate because I had to leave early and they wanted to play some co-op. I trust the mate whose house it was, and still do. So, like an idiot, I left a copy of Gears of War 3 that wasn't mine to lend. The other friend who was present there took some of the games home with him in the morning and when confronted, said some bullshit about his his mum's fiancé had accidentally moved out with them. Or something. So I said plainly he was a thieving **** and had nothing further to do with him. The others make a point of not putting us in the same place and when asked to forgive him I told them that if he returns the games to me, or buys new copies, whatever, I'll treat him as a person again. Till then, he's an untrustworthy, lying sack of shit and has no right to breathe the same air as me.

The second one isn't a moral objection of any kind. I don't think less of stoners. I just don't hang out with them because, pretty soon every friendly outing boils down to two objectives: Collecting weed or smoking it. And I've no interest in either. I don't smoke it myself, and I can't help but getting a bit pissed off when I'm standing in the rain for two hours waiting for some fucking dealer to show up just so my friends can sit around in a haze of smoke, squint at me and ask me dumb-shit questions about philosophy and science and all that. That's not worth leaving my house for.
Same goes for alcohol. I'm absolutely fine with going out and drinking excessively. God knows I do it when I can afford it. It's people that do nothing but drink. To be fair, I haven't encountered this problem in the last five years. It's kind of an underage issue, where people would reckon they were all that just 'cause they managed to steal some drink from someone's garage and their idea of a good time is to find somewhere hidden so they could get drunk and....uh...well that was their endgame. Get drunk, stagger home and hide in their rooms in case their parents found them?

But being disrespectful with cigarettes is kind of an instant breaker. If you want to smoke indoors, fucking ask your companions if they mind. I'm asthmatic. I don't like smoke. I don't care so much if strangers do it. I wouldn't expect strangers to respect my opinion enough to go out of their way to cater to me. But mates are meant to care. And if an acquaintance blows smoke in my face after I ask him blow the smoke elsewhere, you're goddamn right he's gonna get hurt, and you're goddamn right he deserved it.


Heh. I'm coming across as a right bad-tempered twat, but these are genuinely the only things that piss me off to the point where I am a bad-tempered twat. Also, the mate who talked about voting UKIP is a bloody socialist so that's just befuddling.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Okay, so the lunch happened...somewhat interesting results.

James and I were waiting at the table for John to show up, when he walks up. He sees that James is black,shoots me kind of a stare, and sits at the table a bit of trepidation, on my side of the table. Eventually, the two of them hit it off like I was hoping they would. After about 15 minutes or so, John brings race to the conversation, talking about how impressed he is that James "doesn't have his pants below his ass, and isn't doing the 'jigga jigga' ebonics nonsense". This is where I thought things would go bad, but James was expecting the absolute worst, so he was cool about it, commenting on how important he felt it was to not play into black stereotypes just for the sake of blackness or whatever.

They ended up exchanging numbers as we left, and here's where shit got uncomfortable. As we're all parting ways, John says "you know man, at first I wasn't sure that we'd be cool with each other, but it's like you're a white guy stuck in a black man's body". I...didn't have the hundreds of words required to tear that statement down, nor the time, so James gave a kind of awkward laugh with a "yeah...I guess so" and we all left.

I figured after that that John and I could still be friends, but I'd rather not hang around as much as we had been. He showed that he isn't violent or truly hateful for no reason, but the level of ignorance shown despite actually liking and trading numbers with the person is a shame compared to his relative intelligence and level of trust. James handled it like a trooper though, I suppose that's a situation that could have gotten bad.

Reminded a little about this part of an old cracked article. http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1446-5-things-i-learned-as-neo-nazi_p5.html though this guy is clearly far from a neo-nazi.

All the guys I know who talk racist stuff only ever seem to be racist in theory. Put them in a room with a friendly guy of a race they hate and they still seem to get along fine and them its "oh that guy isnt like the rest of them"